Scientology is all bad

[Panda Termint]

Nah, just your string of scientologese in your post made me think you actually took it seriously. I get allergic reactions to too many scientological words strung together.

Lol, these people are talking Tech, ergo; "When in Tech, do as the Techies do."

 

[phenomanon]

I was told that nowadays even Class VIII Auditors do not push their PCs into the prenatal times. I do not know if this is true, but if it is, it makes sense to me -- this shit does not work.

( big snip)

Class V111 Auditors deliver Dianetics just as any other Dianetic auditor does. A Class 8 has trained up on NED, as it is a pre-req for a Class 6 course completion. NED is totally verbatim as to procedure. R3RA is drilled until it is 'flubless'. A Class 8 does nothing different than any NED auditor, maybe just a bit faster and possibly a bit smoother.

To say that DMSMH auditing, or Bk 1 auditing was a complete failure is simply not true. A lot of people had great wins from it. I am one such. I have not seen results that Hubbard promised, but I have seen, and personally experienced, the " happy and healthy" human being EP.

You mention birth and/or prenatals. I have audited somewhere around 400 people on Dianetics of one sort or another. ( HDA, HSDC, NED) Of that number there was only one PC who did not run whole track. I dunno what your interest in birth & prenatals is, but the auditor merely asks for Earlier Similar incidents and the PC runs what the PC runs. Whether it's a birth engram or 4 novemdecillion years ago is not up to the auditor. The auditor takes what the PC gives him, and continues the process.

NED is very different than BK1 in that NED is a tight and precise procedure, whereas Bk1, as Mark Baker has said, is very loose. As I recall, I did Bk1 at the LA Org in a couple hours and it consisted basically of asking the PC for the earliest incident he could locate, and lock scanning it up to present time. No meter was used. I could be wrong. It was a very long time ago.

phenomanon

 

[phenomanon]

Right. And another long, not quite as narrow, and sturdier bridge was built in its place. Still, even the new bridge was known for its occasional action, but nothing even close to the footage of the collapse.

It's a toll bridge now.

phenomanon

 

[phenomanon]

That's not Dianetic Auditing, nor any kind of what scientology calls auditing at all. That's something else again.

If that's a reflection on how you "audited" Dianetics it must have been in some alternate universe, virtual version of scientology where C/S's, Auditors and PCs tolerated all sorts of Evaluation, Invalidation, 2WC (two-way comm) questions which act as Listing Questions, and Auditor Code Breaks.

This thread is full of Squirrels!!!

Looks like someone has Q and A confused with auditing.

phenomanon

 

[Infinite]

. . . To say that DMSMH auditing, or Bk 1 auditing was a complete failure is simply not true. A lot of people had great wins from it. I am one such. I have not seen results that Hubbard promised, but I have seen, and personally experienced, the " happy and healthy" human being EP . . .

What data do you have which might help differentiate the DMSMH "wins" along a causation/correlation continuum?

 

[Smilla]

One must select the incantations artfully to force the Engram to unlatch it's little foot-hooks and horns. If incantations fail, one may try philtres, or scourging, though incantations are most common and standarde. If all else fails, invoke and conjure BT's.

 

[Infinite]

One must select the incantations artfully to force the Engram to unlatch it's little foot-hooks and horns. If incantations fail, one may try philtres, or scourging, though incantations are most common and standarde. If all else fails, invoke and conjure BT's.

Hmmm . . .

I've always wondered whether that "Two-Slot Item Drop" should apply equally across all Attributes, especially Boot. The ALZ Drop Amount in the three highest Attributes transforms into the ALZ Drop Rate in Boots (and, of course, is missing entirely from Gloves). Surely, the Flee Rate compensates?

 

[Demented LRH]

That's not Dianetic Auditing, nor any kind of what scientology calls auditing at all. That's something else again.

If that's a reflection on how you "audited" Dianetics it must have been in some alternate universe, virtual version of scientology where C/S's, Auditors and PCs tolerated all sorts of Evaluation, Invalidation, 2WC (two-way comm) questions which act as Listing Questions, and Auditor Code Breaks.

This thread is full of Squirrels!!!

Are you saying that certain material presented in Volume I has no relation to Dianetics? Well, you might be right about that if you define Dianetics as NED. But NED itself is not original Dianetics, so I was told; it is a deviation from the original Dianetics, as Veda pointed out in his post.

As I said before, after failing to convince the general public that original Dianetics can cure brain tumors, ulcers, etc., Hubbard replaced it with the procedures that he "borrowed" from scientific articles. He made it look like he invented those procedures, which is a lie.

I was also told that the Volume I and II material is obsolete, which may be true. But, as we say, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Why would Hubbard need to replace the old Dianetics with NED if the old version was doing miracles?

 

[Demented LRH]

Looks like someone has Q and A confused with auditing.

phenomanon

That would be Hubbard. I was just following his instructions.

 

[secretiveoldfag]

It's a toll bridge now.

phenomanon

If it falls down before you get to the other side, do you get your money back?

 

[Demented LRH]

I was told that nowadays even Class VIII Auditors do not push their PCs into the prenatal times. I do not know if this is true, but if it is, it makes sense to me -- this shit does not work.

( big snip)

Class V111 Auditors deliver Dianetics just as any other Dianetic auditor does. A Class 8 has trained up on NED, as it is a pre-req for a Class 6 course completion. NED is totally verbatim as to procedure. R3RA is drilled until it is 'flubless'. A Class 8 does nothing different than any NED auditor, maybe just a bit faster and possibly a bit smoother.

To say that DMSMH auditing, or Bk 1 auditing was a complete failure is simply not true. A lot of people had great wins from it. I am one such. I have not seen results that Hubbard promised, but I have seen, and personally experienced, the " happy and healthy" human being EP.

You mention birth and/or prenatals. I have audited somewhere around 400 people on Dianetics of one sort or another. ( HDA, HSDC, NED) Of that number there was only one PC who did not run whole track. I dunno what your interest in birth & prenatals is, but the auditor merely asks for Earlier Similar incidents and the PC runs what the PC runs. Whether it's a birth engram or 4 novemdecillion years ago is not up to the auditor. The auditor takes what the PC gives him, and continues the process.

I am glad that you responded to my post. The auditing techniques that I was using are very different from the ones you were using/are using (I gather, you are a Class V Auditor or even higher). In Volume I Hubabrd says that the birth events SHOULD BE audited because the birth is the place where majority of the engrams are born (this is the reason why CoS use "silent birth"). The auditor should take the PC to the time of birth regardless of his wishes.

In Volume I Hubbard talks at great length about failed attempted abortions, which surprised me a bit because very few abortions actually fail. A failed abortion is an engram, according to Hubbard, so it is imperative to take the PC to the prenatal times.

I suppose, from NED auditor's point of view the Volume I and II Tech is a squirrel tech. But this is not my fault, I was following Father Hubbard's instructions up to the letter. I had no reason to alter his instructions because I trusted him completely.

You said that Dianetics auditing that you were doing was helpful to your PCs. This is in line with my assertion that Hubbard adopted valid psychological procedures without mentioning their authors' names. He "explained" those procedures in Scientology terms. The procedures themselves work because Hubbard did not change them.

You can find descriptions of "Dianetics" procedures in Scientific literature under different names. For example, one of them uses Dianetics-like methods to treat PTSD. The inventors of this procedure are not Scientologists, I do not think they heard about Hubbard, either.

 

[Lurker5]

A few words about a Dianetics experiment - I lost conscience once in a dentist chair (I was 12 at that time) because the pain was great. The dentist kept talking to my mother without noticing that I passed out for about 10 seconds. Later, when I became a Scientologist, I asked my friend, who was a Class V auditor, to help me recall what my dentist and my mother were talking about when I passed out. I was curious about the "powers" of Dianetics. But I could not recall a thing during the auditing. I was young and stupid at that time, I blamed my friend for the poor result, not Hubbard -- I though that she was a bad auditor. Well, she was one of the best auditors as I was told afterward by her colleagues. Still, I wanted to believe in Dianetics, so I did not take their words seriously.

Actually, I am fairly certain that there is something to that, hearing while unconcious - and lrh stole it, or the studies that were being made at the time gave him the idea for it. There are tales of people in operating rooms who hear what is being said, while unconscious. I think it could have an effect on the person - long term, without that person ever knowing that. Example, let's say that a surgeon, while operating, comments on how beautiful a woman is (or stacked - or whatever) -or how not - and she spends the rest of her life believing what she heard while out cold . . . . Or a kid, out cold in a dentist's chair, hearing mom epxress concerns about it, and the dentist saying, He is a tough kid. And for the rest of your life, you are a tough kid. Or not.

The unconcious is a mystery.

But I certainly would not ever give credit to lrh for that information about the unconscious. I do give him credit for the failures of scno/tech/co$ - and for the lies told, the lives destroyed and lost, and the families ripped apart. All him.

 

[Panda Termint]

Are you saying that certain material presented in Volume I has no relation to Dianetics? <snip....>

No, I'm saying that the "auditing" patter you presented (which I quoted above) is NOT Auditing per my understanding of it. It is not Book One or any kind of Dianetic auditing. In fact, it has too many Gross Auditing Errors to be called any kind of auditing at all. Perhaps someone else will give you a second opinion.

 

[Infinite]

. . . <snip> . . . You can find descriptions of "Dianetics" procedures in Scientific literature under different names. For example, one of them uses Dianetics-like methods to treat PTSD. The inventors of this procedure are not Scientologists, I do not think they heard about Hubbard, either.

DOX PLOX.

 

[Demented LRH]

No, I'm saying that the "auditing" patter you presented (which I quoted above) is NOT Auditing per my understanding of it. It is not Book One or any kind of Dianetic auditing. In fact, it has too many Gross Auditing Errors to be called any kind of auditing. Perhaps someone else will give you a second opinion.

This is not NED auditing, I know that. But it is a part of the old Dianetics, although a tiny part. I chose this auditing session not as an example of what Dianetics is/was, but to demostrate how Hubbard was using valid psychological procedures that he did not invent.

 

[Panda Termint]

This is not NED auditing, I know that. But it is a part of the old Dianetics, although a tiny part. I chose this auditing session not as an example of what Dianetics is/was, but to demostrate how Hubbard was using valid psychological procedures that he did not invent.

I've already said that. I told you that I have audited thousands of hours of Book One, Standard Dianetics, and NED. I know the difference between the styles.

So that wasn't an example of what you call auditing, then? Perhaps you should have used the word Psychotherapist or Counselor instead of Auditor in the patter.

 

[Demented LRH]

DOX PLOX.

I found description of this method in Wikipedia, it consists of taking the patient back it time to the moment when the trauma occurred, and asking him to recall the incident over and over. Of course, there is no mentioning of the engrams because the psychologists who developed this method are not Scientologists.
The article also says that this is not the most effective method of PTSD treatment -- there are other, much more effective methods.

I read this article 6 months ago, and I did not save a link to it.

 

[BardoThodol]

Last night, I had one of those aha! moments that happen at esmb.

I've had this Platonic Ideal that somehow got confused with and served to protect Scientology.

The study of knowing is important to me. Even though I despise Scientology, I'm enamored with the idea of a science of knowing.

Consequently, when studying Scientology, I simply threw out all the green on white and other material that had nothing to do with gnostic pursuit. Thus, this idealized and invented subject served to buffer the cancerous spread of the actual subject.

It wasn't even that I couldn't see the facts and realities about Scientology and LRH; it's just that lingering in the background was this subject I really liked--one I'd invented.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to anyone else, but it made me happy. At least now I understand better what is being said without that interference.

I guess, in brief, we can all create an Ideal which buffers or denies our perception of the actuality.

 

[Infinite]

I found description of this method in Wikipedia, it consists of taking the patient back it time to the moment when the trauma occurred, and asking him to recall the incident over and over. Of course, there is no mentioning of the engrams because the psychologists who developed this method are not Scientologists.
The article also says that this is not the most effective method of PTSD treatment -- there are other, much more effective methods.

I read this article 6 months ago, and I did not save a link to it.

I doubt very much asking a person about what was happening at the time of a trauma is exclusively a Dianetic procedure. Did the article mention attaching the client to a lie detector and asking questions from a pre-prepared list from the 1950s?

 

[BardoThodol]

The Tacoma Narrows collapse was 72 years ago. You guys are older than I thought.


Mark A. Baker

Never been on the bridge. Was just parodying the stupidity of someone believing in the soundness of an unsound bridge simply because of some pleasant and uneventful experiences with it.