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After Scientology - Getting Over the Shame and the Guilt

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Caroline? Just got in the door and scanned your last two posts.

Wow! Excellent stuff!

The ride out of shame is magnificent! :)

Thank you Caroline. You rock! :yes: :flowers:

You are welcome of course, sallydannce. I'm grateful for the chance to participate in this discussion, and for the interest some thinking folk have in the shame of it all. Also for your courage in telling your story with such generosity and detail. I had read part of it, but didn't realize until today how much you've shared regarding your awareness and experience of shame. Your journey is worthy, and your telling it is an inspiration to many.

You posted about the experience of deep shame, while driving, and being torn up and grief stricken. I'm thinking you could have had a great blessing. It would be a shame if it was otherwise.
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
You are welcome of course, sallydannce. I'm grateful for the chance to participate in this discussion, and for the interest some thinking folk have in the shame of it all. Also for your courage in telling your story with such generosity and detail. I had read part of it, but didn't realize until today how much you've shared regarding your awareness and experience of shame. Your journey is worthy, and your telling it is an inspiration to many.

You posted about the experience of deep shame, while driving, and being torn up and grief stricken. I'm thinking you could have had a great blessing. It would be a shame if it was otherwise.

Thank you Caroline. :)

The shifts in my perspective have been quite spectacular. I am working on some further writing about how scientology inflicted shame deeply into my life, my core.

In many ways I wish my experience with how scientology infected me with shame was "unique" and "only me" but my gut tells me this is far from the reality. Furthermore as I am laying out all the pieces - the manipulation techniques, the various methods used in scientology - the conclusion I am reaching is that the system is based on inducing shame. You can break someone that way - and control them.

Taken together, findings across studies suggest that guilt motivates people in a constructive, proactive, future-oriented direction, whereas shame motivates people toward separation, distance, and defense.

Tangey, J.T.; Stuewig, J. (2004). A SITUATIONIST PERSPECTIVE ON THE PSYCHOLOGY OF EVIL: Understanding How Good People Are Transformed into Perpetrators. In A. G. Miller (Ed.), The Social Psychology of Good and Evil. New York: Guilford Press.

The scientology system seems to juggle between guilt-inducement and shame-inducement. The former (feelings of guilt) appears to motivate people to reach harder and more for the "fix" of the tech. The latter (shame) seems to create the isolating barrier between the individual and the outside world. It seems to create deep defensive thought patterns that keep the person hooked into (addicted) to scientology.

Perhaps it is shame that holds the "mind-control tunnel walls" around the individual. I haven't worked this all out yet.

What I can see is if all the shame-inducing tactics were removed from the scientology methods I would not have been so plugged in/addicted and have stayed for all those years.

And this new insight is bringing me great comfort, laughter and a fresh perspective. :)
 

Sautez

Patron with Honors
:heartflower:Uniquemand: Thanks for this-

'At any rate, your mileage may vary, but don't give up on helping, loving and caring for other people, our civilization or any other objectives just because Scientology is a cult and you feel betrayed, stupid or whatever as a result of being involved. That's like giving up building your house because you banged your thumb with a hammer (repeatedly).'
:thumbsup:

Wow.
This thread has been great for stirring the pot and pointing towards resolution for me.
New feelings came up for me about the same time this thread was started by Sallydannce and it has been a revelation in many ways due to what a lot of you have shared here.

Thanks! Momentarily interrupted by something good at my door so I will come back later.
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
:heartflower:Uniquemand: Thanks for this-

'At any rate, your mileage may vary, but don't give up on helping, loving and caring for other people, our civilization or any other objectives just because Scientology is a cult and you feel betrayed, stupid or whatever as a result of being involved. That's like giving up building your house because you banged your thumb with a hammer (repeatedly).'
:thumbsup:

Wow.
This thread has been great for stirring the pot and pointing towards resolution for me.
New feelings came up for me about the same time this thread was started by Sallydannce and it has been a revelation in many ways due to what a lot of you have shared here.

Thanks! Momentarily interrupted by something good at my door so I will come back later.

:rose::rose::rose:

Stir that pot, shift perspective - healing, connection, love.

Smiling right at ya! :)
 

Man de la Mancha

Patron with Honors
Why not get the person to either burn them or shred them? They have written them up anyway.

That would be awesome. The Friday night O/W bonfires in LA Org parking lot, or Clearwater Beach. It would also be a cool way of symbolically letting go of any baggage related to the Oh-Dubs.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I didn't mean to infer that a person should avoid experiencing shame or guilt that follows actions or thinking about actions. I simply meant that they can be very "sticky" emotions, and that people can obsess about their shame or guilt to the point of exclusion of enjoyment of their lives or otherwise distort who they are. I see emotions very much as indications from our internal compass about whether we are on a good, constructive course or not, from our own perspective. If the compass itself gets jammed, though, and constantly emits indications that are no longer relevant... it becomes fairly useless as a direction finder!
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
I didn't mean to infer that a person should avoid experiencing shame or guilt that follows actions or thinking about actions. I simply meant that they can be very "sticky" emotions, and that people can obsess about their shame or guilt to the point of exclusion of enjoyment of their lives or otherwise distort who they are. I see emotions very much as indications from our internal compass about whether we are on a good, constructive course or not, from our own perspective. If the compass itself gets jammed, though, and constantly emits indications that are no longer relevant... it becomes fairly useless as a direction finder!

Thank you, uniquemand. I agree with you that people can obsess about shame and guilt. People have the option of obsessing about just about anything, to the exclusion of other things, including enjoyment.

I'm not sure that people can distort who they are. The Scientologists sell the idea that we can, but that is doubtlessly false sales. People can certainly distort who or what they think or believe they are. And that's all that the Scientologists are delivering.

Recent ESMB discussions provoked a look into the wealth of scientific research on shame, guilt, etc., in developmental stages and social settings. The application of this research to the Scientology brainwash is very encouraging to me. I feel hopeful that the Scientologists use of these and other human emotions to trap and manipulate people for unworthy purposes can be laid bare. Hopefully too this will help free people from their quandaries relating to the guilt and shame Scientology and Scientologists generate in them.

I also think that psychological researchers have a tremendous opportunity to increase our human understanding of shame and guilt by studying the Scientology system in personal and transpersonal contexts. What exciting research that would be!
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Thank you Caroline. :)

The shifts in my perspective have been quite spectacular. I am working on some further writing about how scientology inflicted shame deeply into my life, my core.

In many ways I wish my experience with how scientology infected me with shame was "unique" and "only me" but my gut tells me this is far from the reality.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this, sallydannce. I think it can be shown how, in service of Scientology's leaders, its system and personnel both induce shame and suppress it. The SP doctrine seeks to install shame by beastifying us with black PR, by disconnecting us from our families, and by other punishments for actions that do not warrant punishment or shame. The same doctrine provides justification for Scientologists to suppress or deny their shame for antisocial actions they must perpetrate on people like us, who tell the truth about Hubbard and Scientology.

Furthermore as I am laying out all the pieces - the manipulation techniques, the various methods used in scientology - the conclusion I am reaching is that the system is based on inducing shame. You can break someone that way - and control them.



The scientology system seems to juggle between guilt-inducement and shame-inducement. The former (feelings of guilt) appears to motivate people to reach harder and more for the "fix" of the tech. The latter (shame) seems to create the isolating barrier between the individual and the outside world. It seems to create deep defensive thought patterns that keep the person hooked into (addicted) to scientology.

Perhaps it is shame that holds the "mind-control tunnel walls" around the individual. I haven't worked this all out yet.

What I can see is if all the shame-inducing tactics were removed from the scientology methods I would not have been so plugged in/addicted and have stayed for all those years.

And this new insight is bringing me great comfort, laughter and a fresh perspective. :)

Wonderful! :) I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on this important topic.

Here's a fascinating quote from a 2003 journal article "The Role of the Self in Shame" by Michael Lewis. Lewis places shame as the "counterpoint" of hubris. Some examples of hubris that Scientology induces are inherent in their claimed results: "Clear," "Cause over Life," "Cause over Matter, Energy, Space and Time," "Power on all 8 dynamics," "Operating Thetan."

Michael Lewis said:
"In the model, I distinguish between four emotional states. Notice that shame is a consequence of a failure evaluation relative to the standards when the person makes a global evaluation of the self. Guilt also is the consequence of a failure; however, with guilt, the focus is on the self's action. A parallel exists as a consequence of success. When success is evaluated and the person makes a global attribution, hubris (pridefulness) is the resulting emotion; when success is evaluated and the person makes a specific attribution, pride is the resulting emotion. I use here the Greek term hubris to differentiate this emotion from pride, with which it is too often confused. As I have warned before, word usage issues associated with these emotions render careful analysis most difficult. Not only do we have the problems of differentiating shame from guilt, embarrassment, and shyness, but we also have the difficulty of distinguishing between different kinds of pride. One can think of pride in terms of its use in two ways. On the one hand, I think of pride in terms of achievement, the feeling one has when being successful in fulfilling a particular goal and activity. In my discussion of achievement motivation, I noted how children learn to feel proud about their achievements in terms of a particular standard, rule, or goal. On the other hand, I also use the term pride to indicate a negative emotional state. I speak of the proud man or the proud woman with some disdain. The Bible speaks of pride coming before the fall; throughout the story of the Old and New Testaments, we find examples of false pride and how this pride brings down the man. It is clear that the term pride carries a surplus of meaning; if we are to understand the term at all, we need to distinguish between specific pride and global pride. I have done so by the use of the term "hubris" to represent global pride and "pride" to represent specific achievement. I see hubris as the counterpoint to shame. The pride-shame axis has been described by others who have noticed the similarity between these two emotional states (Morrison, 1986, 1989)." (Lewis)

Lewis, M. (2003, Winter). The Role of the Self in Shame. Social Research, 70(4).
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
Re cult indoctrination video post 73
How can such crude techniques work?

I noticed that former cult members tend to describe only external events when talking about their conversion, similar to that video. There is no in-depth analysis, so outsiders can’t understand what is really going on.

For example, Steve Hassan’s story about his own recruitment into the Moonies does not make sense. He is young and vulnerable, goes on a 3 day retreat, is lectured, love bombed and sleep deprived. He goes on the second retreat and a short time after he believes that Moon is a Messiah bigger than Jesus, and he starts fundraising and recruiting on the streets. His purpose in life now is to serve Moon. How is it possible?

Scientologists’ stories are similar, only external events are described. Someone young reads Dianetics, takes a communication course, perhaps gets some auditing, believes a few lies about scientific research. Then after a short while he believes that Hubbard knew what happened trillions and trillions years ago and that Hubbard is the only one who knows how the Universe works. This does not add up.:confused2:

There has to be more to it to produce a worldview shift. Where can I read about how people become true believers and what do they get out of it?
Thanks
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Re cult indoctrination video post 73
How can such crude techniques work?

I noticed that former cult members tend to describe only external events when talking about their conversion, similar to that video. There is no in-depth analysis, so outsiders can’t understand what is really going on.

For example, Steve Hassan’s story about his own recruitment into the Moonies does not make sense. He is young and vulnerable, goes on a 3 day retreat, is lectured, love bombed and sleep deprived. He goes on the second retreat and a short time after he believes that Moon is a Messiah bigger than Jesus, and he starts fundraising and recruiting on the streets. His purpose in life now is to serve Moon. How is it possible?

Scientologists’ stories are similar, only external events are described. Someone young reads Dianetics, takes a communication course, perhaps gets some auditing, believes a few lies about scientific research. Then after a short while he believes that Hubbard knew what happened trillions and trillions years ago and that Hubbard is the only one who knows how the Universe works. This does not add up.:confused2:

There has to be more to it to produce a worldview shift. Where can I read about how people become true believers and what do they get out of it?
Thanks

I don't know much about how other cults lure people in, Alle G, but Hubbard's material on dissemination tech is the procedural basis in Scientology. It's a bait and switch operation in which Scientology disseminators seek out people with problems, and exploit their vulnerabilities.

By various means (OCA tests, E-Meter stress tests, etc.), disseminators get their marks to open up and discuss their areas of life difficulties. They zero in what seems to be the central concern with the person. Examples: failed relationships, trouble talking to girls, career problems, etc. Disseminators drive home these troubles, getting their marks to admit that [x] is literally ruining their lives, or would ruin them if they weren't solved. The goal is to sell Scientology as the solution or benefit.

Being in "ruin" is a terrible experience. The shame for me was virtually unbearable, and in that broken state, I took the only "honourable" route out, which was to pay the cult money for the books and the Comm course.

Here are a couple of OCMB discussions on this topic:
Personality Test Experience

More on the tragic death in Norway

Hubbard's Motivations

Some Scientology material on Dissemination:
Luring them in

Testing Practices
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
Thanks Caroline

I find ESMB the most interesting blog ever. I have been reading it for months now, it requires some preparation from outsiders to understand what people are talking about.

But trying to understand you (plural) I understand lots of other things about human mind. Ex scientologists seem to know a lot and are highly interesting and intelligent people. (Compare to martial arts blogs: they can't even maintain a thread for three comments without going off :p)

Thanks
Alle
 
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Alle G

Patron with Honors
Also, in Paradise, when Adam and Eve ate the apple and acquired consciousness, the first emotion they felt was shame that they are naked.:omg:



 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
Also, in Paradise, when Adam and Eve ate the apple and acquired consciousness, the first emotion they felt was shame that they are naked.:omg:




:roflmao:

And you know this because... you were there? :p

what-facepalm.gif


:carryon:


(oh, and :welcome: too newbie Alle)
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
The guilt and shame are no longer issues for me as I've been out for quite a while. The hardest aspect for me to get over is the the body thetan horseshit that had me believing that all my friends, family and self were composite beings who existed as hopelessly entangled masses of decayed thetans, even clusters within clusters of them. That belief eroded my concept of the world around me and left me highly attuned to the dangerousness of this universe. After all, if these thetans could become BT's, why couldn't I, my mother, my cousins etc. also end up in such a goop for some 75 million years? What a demented state of mind this "tech" leads one into... Even if the initial buy in point was something as "harmless" as TR's, study tech, the data series etc. These buy in's just lead one further into the bewildering psychosis of the "upper levels" and the hellishly demented point of view that it all leads to. The bottom line is the universe was no longer a safe space for me or anyone else for that matter until I got that stuff out of my head. Not sure I totally have as yet...:no:

Whew! In his promotion of "survival" and salvation, L Ron Hubbard certainly provided nightmares as well as illusions of the fantastic. Of course, all good cult leaders apply sophisticated "carrot and stick" manipulation but your post provides a glimpse at the sort of personal, internal thinking which results from it. Thank you.

L Ron Hubbard's mental-image-picture of Body Thetans seems often to be the exact opposite of many I have found on my own, meandering, spiritual journey. The imagination I like best is that the components of the MEST Universe are, indeed, made up of the physical bodies of spiritual beings, but that these beings have no need for a physical presence so have gifted their bodies to create MEST so as to provide other spiritual beings, like you and me, with a human experience. Hope that makes sense and might help reframe the larger concept in a new, more positive light. When I found it, I was filled with a new wonder for Nature and an impulse to protect the environment as a sign of respect to the spiritual. And myself.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
The following passage contains the perfect example of Hubbard's personal generation of shame in another, here a mere bill collector. This well-known indoctrination material is studied on Academy Level II.

Hubbard also flaunts his hubris, which I noted a few days ago that researchers had called shame's "counterpoint." "The only evil thing we are doing is to be good," "helping people everywhere," doing something to us is "all out of proportion to" what's done to mere ungood, unhelpful wogs.

He really was vilifying people who were telling the truth about him and Scientology, not people who were libeling and slandering them. He was magnifying the "wrongs" done to Scientology and himself, in order to beastify the truth tellers and justify their beastification.

This bit from the bulletin is also instructive about Hubbard's double-curve tech.

Hubbard dated his "Blow-Offs" bulletin, which he also issued as a policy letter, December 31, 1959. Happy New Year everybody! On December 23, Hubbard published a very famous and BPI bulletin, "Responsibility." Merry Christmas everyone! The biggest blow of all time, L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., had left on November 23, 1959 (according the Nibs). Happy Thanksgiving, Dad!

Also note Hubbard's super-hubristic boast that he kept a death list that he was happy to show to Scientologists who wanted to see it. That's a message for his son. And it's been a message ever since for everyone else as well.

Hubbard said:
[...]

A recent Secretarial Executive Directive to all Central Organizations states that before a person may draw his last paycheck from an organization he is leaving of his own volition he must write down all his overts and withholds against the organization and its related personnel and have these checked out by the HCO Secretary on an E-Meter.

To do less than this is cruelty itself. The person is blowing himself off with his own overts and withholds. If these are not removed, then anything the organization or its people does to him goes in like a javelin and leaves him with a dark area in his life and a rotten taste in his mouth. Further, he goes around spouting lies about the organization and its related personnel, and every lie he utters makes him just that much sicker. By permitting a blow-off without clearing it we are degrading people, for I assure you, and with some sorrow, people have not often recovered from overts against Scientology, its organizations and related persons. They don’t recover because they know in their hearts even while they lie that they are wronging people who have done and are doing enormous amounts of good in the world and who definitely do not deserve libel and slander. Literally, it kills them, and if you don’t believe it I can show you the long death list.

The only evil thing we are doing is to be good, if that makes sense to you. For by being good, things done to us out of carelessness or viciousness are all out of proportion to the evil done to others. This often applies to people who are not Scientologists. Just this year I had an electrician who robbed HCO of money with false bills and bad workmanship. One day he woke up to the fact that the organization he was robbing was helping people everywhere far beyond his ability to ever help anyone. Within a few weeks he contracted TB and is now dying in a London hospital. Nobody took off the overts and withholds when he left. And it’s actually killing him—a fact which is no fancy on my part. There is something a little terrifying in this sometimes. I once told a bill collector what and who we were and that he had wronged a good person, and a half-hour later he threw a hundred grains of Veronal down his throat and was lugged off to the hospital, a suicide.

This campaign is aimed straightly at cases and getting people cleared. It is aimed at preserving staffs and the lives of persons who believe they have failed us.

[...]

Hubbard, L. R. (1959R, 31 December). Blow-Offs. The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology (1991 ed., Vol. V, 260-2). Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.

I am beginning to see that the Scientologists are stuck in hubris toward the SP class, as unable as Hubbard to experience shame to get unstuck.

Wikipedia said:
Hubris: (hjuːbrɪs/), also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

[...]

In ancient Greek, hubris referred to actions that shamed and humiliated the victim for the pleasure or gratification of the abuser.

Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Wow, what a beautiful thread! Thank you! This is an important part of cult recovery and what's more, is applicable throughout any part of one's life. :grouphug:
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Two Very Highly Recommended and Helpful Videos on Shame and Guilt:

Originally Posted by SweetnessandLight :thankyou:
[video=youtube;X4Qm9cGRub0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X4Qm9cGRub0[/video]


Posted by The_Fixer: :thankyou:
[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame.html[/video]

on YouTube: [video=youtube;psN1DORYYV0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0[/video]

(more cross-posts to be added tomorrow)


I just want to say thank you so much for posting these. I'd never heard of her before, and I watched them both, and I'm going to read her books. I really needed these today.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Also, in Paradise, when Adam and Eve ate the apple and acquired consciousness, the first emotion they felt was shame that they are naked.:omg:
Hmm.. Bible says so? - I'd have expected 'em to feel delightfully naughty... :unsure: After all, they couldn't have read the Bible yet.
 
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