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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Scientologists and Indies and EXes, Oh My!

3) Finally (the more obvious, but not obvious to Scientologists), by atomizing ever sentence and idea into words, the Scientologist is given abundant opportunity to "clear" every meaning of every idea that Hubbard expresses. Not, mind you, to "clear" the truth or falsity of it--but to "clear" WHY IT IS TRUE; because Hubbard said it. This falls under the Hubbard study tech rule of getting a student to work out how something is and is not true (alternately) until they can "make it their own". In other words, take an obvious untrue statement and get the student to discover how it is actually true. Insane technology, actually, designed to have a student dial up and discover their own personal cognitive dissonance. [/INDENT]

This seems to be a key part of the Brainwashing Tech. :thumbsup:
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Lol DB, yes my 'perfect self' is full to the brim with unconditional love, is understanding of all differing and dissenting viewpoints and cares deeply about the feelings of [STRIKE]some of the biggest prats [/STRIKE] all those lovely people that come here just to help us all to understand how scientology really works/how it was meant to really work/how it could really work.

My perfect self is a complete phony and an enormous pain in the arse.


:happydance:

All that's needed to Keep Scientology Working is to practice it outside the Cof$, and to utter the occasional negative comment about David Miscavige. That's what was written on the now cancelled get-out-jail-free card, anyway.

JailCard.jpg


 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Re: Scientologists and Indies and EXes, Oh My!

<snip> I don't think Scilons are indoctrinated to be liars. I think they are taught to be highly expert at ignoring their cognitive dissonance. <snip>
Uhm.. I think you are right.. But then: I'm more 'comfortable' calling scientolohgists liars! - Because, to think about a scientologist, that he is so abysmally dumb as to actually believe Hubbard's hype and bollocks, like the examples HH gave.. Well, that's VERY disrespectful of the scientologist.. Better then, to consider that he does have a modicrum of intelligence and is a liar..

[But Scientology tech does indeed contain explicit instructions to lie. There's even a Training Routine, TR Lie, on the PR course to drill serving up red herrings unblinkingly!]

:yes:
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Is anybody else experiencing weirdness reading posts. I couldn't get the last couple of pages without posting this note, and I can't get the instant message scroll at the top of the page at all. I'm in a state of confusion.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I never have anything cogent to say it seems. By the time I get to a thread all the smart folks have already said great stuff and I know I can't compete with such brilliance.

Meh, sharing one's thoughts with others is not a competition. If you have a thought that you think might fit into the discussion, just post it.

I will point out that the count is 3 to 2000(?). What count? Well MAB, Claire and T Parks makes 3. The rest of their cohorts have left the building a while back.

So I think they are to be commended for keeping ESMB a lively and non-boring place :biggrin: as others have noted how utterly boring it is when everyone is in complete agreement.

Well, all three of 'em (and there are more) give me an interesting view into some Hubbard-influenced mindsets, which is indeed interesting for me.

About agreements/disagreements:
The most I could get from agreements would be warm, fuzzy feelings of self-righteousness, but from well-founded and well-presented disagreements, I might learn something. What do you think I'd prefer?

Of course anyone wishing to extend the list of 3 is certainly encouraged to speak up.

I think I could easily extend your list, but I'll refrain from doing so. I'm not here to single out certain individuals for certain purposes.

There are others, like Lakey, but he stays in his little world on the Apollo thread and doesn't venture out into rough water.

I personally and deliberately roughed up some waters over there, but why single out another person? Lakey surely has his shortcomings, like we all have ours, but I kinda like him.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Is anybody else experiencing weirdness reading posts. I couldn't get the last couple of pages without posting this note,

That's an old bug in the forum software which occasionally prevents the last follow-up page of a thread from being accessed.

One little workaround: Adjust the number of posts displayed per page. The default, when you're not logged in, is 10 posts per page (IIRC). So while logged in, when you set your user settings to e.g. 13 posts per page, the undisplayable 1st post on a new page becomes the last post on the last page and therefore displayable.

and I can't get the instant message scroll at the top of the page at all. I'm in a state of confusion.

Sorry, I can't help you with this one, I've never had this problem.
 

Don Crom 3rd mo can

Patron with Honors
:hattip: I too would like to express my thanks to Emma, and all the others who are resposible for and able to maintain this service we call ESMB. I won't go as far as to say it was my "salvation" but it certainly played a very large part in helping me to pry my head out of my ass. Hope you never run outta crowbars Emma.

Religion. I for one was not "satisfied" with the conventional answers that mainstream religion offered, too many gaping holes that "we" were just supposed to "take on faith". When "the hook" of "an applied (key in word: lied) religious philosiphy" came into the conversation, I for one, bit. And sad to say bit hard. Also sad to say, for many years I was a "true believer" hoping against hope that "someday" the pure terrorism that is called "justice cycles" would all be corrected. With the push to resell the Basics and the subsequent "reg or re-enlist" HARD SELL was (I think) what finally woke me up. I started to explore the web, found THRU THE DOOR and finally realized how much energy was "tied up" in a hopeless cause & worthless goal.

This is not to say EVERYTHING in $cn is worthless, simply, at present, in it's current form, the Co$ is not what it could/should be. But then again "man" has been looking for the answers to his spirituallity for what(?) 5000 years now. 5000 years from now lets hope "we" are at least three steps closer to the correct answers, or at least not farther away.

Now here's a little story for you. There is no way to "prove" it, but here goes. While in the Navy, I broke some rules and had 2 weeks restriction onboard ship, late on a Fri afternoon as I'm reading Stranger in a Strange Land I have this sudden muscle contraction and twitch just below my left collar bone, the spasm was sharp and went from the quads of the left shoulder to the entire left breast area. An hour later it spasmed again, from Friday evening till "late" Sunday night it continued, not so much increaseing in severity, but very much in frequency. By bedtime Sunday night it was most disturbing and quite annoying, spasming every 2-3 minutes. As I'm about to doze off I roll over on my left side towards the bulkhead (wall for you landlubbers) and I see (in slow motion) a 30 caliber bullet come out of the bulkhead and strike me in the exact center of the muscle spasm. IT HAS NOT TWITCHED SINCE. The bottom line is; personally I've had gains from $cn tech, there is SOMETHING there. Whether or not there is as much as what is constantly being touted, who knows. Could be, one day, many years from now there WILL BE a "real" OT drop in on us ans show us where the true nuggets of wisdom are in the vast heap of shit. In the mean time, to the 3800+ of "us" who have found our way out of the maze. Congratulations!!! But never forget, YOU would not be who YOU are now, were it not for the exact path that got you HERE. :melodramatic: :coolwink: C-Ya DC
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I never have anything cogent to say it seems.

Oh, you're too modest. You post some neat stuff.

By the time I get to a thread all the smart folks have already said great
stuff and I know I can't compete with such brilliance.





I will point out that the count is 3 to 2000(?). What count? Well MAB, Claire
and T Parks makes 3. The rest of their cohorts have left the building a while
back.

What cohorts? You've got me keeping some company of a couple gentlemen who are Scn'ists, albeit heretical. Charming gentlemen, whom I'm honored to know, but still I dunno that I'd call them cohorts, notwithstanding the silly stuff recently posted about the Baker Swazey whatevers.

In any event, MAB's cool, Terril's someone I consider a friend and I like your stuff, too.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Thought-terminating cliché

A thought-terminating cliché is a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance. Though the phrase in and of itself may be valid in certain contexts, its application as a means of dismissing dissent or justifying fallacious logic is what makes it thought-terminating.

The term was popularized by Robert Jay Lifton in his 1956 book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Lifton said, "The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis."


In George Orwell’s novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, the fictional constructed language Newspeak is designed to reduce language entirely to a set of thought-terminating clichés. Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World society uses thought-terminating clichés in a more conventional manner, most notably in regard to the drug soma as well as modified versions of real-life platitudes, such as, "A doctor a day keeps the jim-jams away."

"Don't be silly."
"You're just being silly."
"
"You're silly."
"That was silly."
"That's the silliest thing I ever heard."
"How could you be so silly?"

Etc.
Lol.

http://philosophy.thecastsite.com/readings/anonymous2.html

490-stop-that-this-thread-is-getting-very-silly.jpg



 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Meh, sharing one's thoughts with others is not a competition. If you have a thought that you think might fit into the discussion, just post it.



Well, all three of 'em (and there are more) give me an interesting view into some Hubbard-influenced mindsets, which is indeed interesting for me.

No, actually, I don't. I'm just an ex scientologist. I've noticed, though, that whenever I say things people here don't like, they start poppin' out with the "oooh, you're a Scientologist" meme. It's false and makes no sense.

So glad you're like interested, etc, and I like your posts just fine. I think you seem like a really neat artistic person. You're also quite bright and articulate. But if you're looking to me for a Hubbard influenced mindset or anything else, then you're looking to the wrong person.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I am not a Scientologist, but I do stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone fighting for their right to brainwash people. I also defend people's right to be brainwashed. If you can't see the fairness in that, that's your problem. Period.





Quoted For Truth
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
No, actually, I don't. I'm just an ex scientologist. I've noticed, though, that whenever I say things people here don't like, they start poppin' out with the "oooh, you're a Scientologist" meme. It's false and makes no sense.

Mr. N didn't refer to you as a Scientologist, instead he was talking about people having "Hubbard-influenced mindsets", which isn't the same thing.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Mr. N didn't refer to you as a Scientologist, instead he was talking about people having "Hubbard-influenced mindsets", which isn't the same thing.

Claire, when this question was asked:

Is there anything from Scientology you have found useful?

You answered:
I think the Tone Scale is fantastic. I think it explains behavior very well.

The data series- also excellent. Fantastic course on logic.

Auditing works very well in many cases though certainly not to the extent promised by Hubbard and the present day cult management.

Hubbard's many theories on spirituality, self determinism, the various scales and formulas.

So I'd really have to say most of it.


So I don't think that it would be false to characterize you as having a "Hubbard influenced mindset". :no:
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Argh Type4, have you not learned to avoid throwing chunks of raw meat into the ocean whilst you swim? LOL

Of course Claire isn't going to respond to that post, noooo, she'll just let it slide...

Unflat TR0BB ...
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
XB, I'll just say that there are ex-Scilons, that construe that to mean ex-Co$ Sclions and that they are still Scilons, just not card-carrying members of da evil cult. (And Claire is not in that category, she's not a Scilon at all no more no more no more no more - period)
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
I became an Ex the moment I went on the internet and checked out the condition Hubbard was in when death finally caught up with him. That was a jaw dropping moment, the rest is just getting rid of the residue. No different really than when one does the washing up and the dishes are stacked off to one side for drying. The dirty water is still there; and even after pulling the plug one has to clear debris and scum.

I don't want to hang onto any of that Scientology stuff but sometimes I find a piece hanging in there.

I don't care that the pro group exist here on this board, I may or not read their posts. More often not.
It's not like I am going to step into an auditing room anytime soon.
 

Ho Tai

Patron Meritorious
Someone just posted in one of the threads here:

"I think there's a variety of exes and critics who have different takes on things. We mention our stances, whether those be that the person's now an indie, or that they think it's all crap or that maybe they liked some of it- in interests of candor with our contributors.

That, and freedom of speech and choice is really all there is to that."

My feeling is: not quite. I still wonder what it means to be an ex-Scientologist as defined by this site, and I have yet to get a real answer. When you think about it, maybe there needs to be a new site created for the kind of dialogue this person is talking about in the quote, where these groups (Critics, Scientologists, Ex-Scientologists, Independents) can all come together and argue it out.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I see this forum as exactly the place you describe. I believe that most of the people on this site have been and are no longer scn's. As such they have seen the subject from both sides and have chosen the Out side. Others add flavor and inject viewpoints that give us the opportunity to reflect on the fact that life has many more facets than In and Out. This is important because when In, many of us have seen In-ness as the only important attribute of our life. Once out, for a time we might similarly hang on to our Out-ness as an identity, but we need to move beyond that as quickly as possible.

It is also unrealistic to think that anyone could create and enforce a filter that would accept the "right" kind of people to the board and exclude others. Personally, I can't imagine it could get any better than this for most people who have left scn and are trying to figure out what the hell happened to them. I left about four years ago and am still trying to sort it out. I have been to most of the other forums and this is the one for me.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
I became an Ex the moment I went on the internet and checked out the condition Hubbard was in when death finally caught up with him. That was a jaw dropping moment, the rest is just getting rid of the residue. No different really than when one does the washing up and the dishes are stacked off to one side for drying. The dirty water is still there; and even after pulling the plug one has to clear debris and scum.

I don't want to hang onto any of that Scientology stuff but sometimes I find a piece hanging in there.

I don't care that the pro group exist here on this board, I may or not read their posts. More often not.
It's not like I am going to step into an auditing room anytime soon.

That was the first thing I went looking for on the net and it rapidly led me to ESMB. It didn't instantly ex me, but it sure did give me impetus to dig deeper and ponder on how I'd been lied to.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Claire, when this question was asked:

Is there anything from Scientology you have found useful?

You answered:

PTS4, do you think it's fair to quote something someone wrote over three years ago as reflective of what they think now -- given the onion-peeling that happens around here?

I don't.

I've written things here that I no longer hold to be self-evident. I'm changing all the time. And hope that never stops.

Just sayin'.

TG1
 
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