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Why Scientology and OTs are inherently fascist.

Why Scientology and OTs are inherently fascist.

Scientology, in or out of the Church of Scientology, is inherently fascist.

To demonstrate my point I have to draw on something written in the late 1940s.

But it wasn’t written about Scientology or Dianetics.

In the late 1940s two philosophers asked this question: How come, just when civilization was at its most sophisticated, democratic and scientific level, did society produce the barbarism of fascism in general and Nazism in particular?

It was a deep work, but I’m going to try and cut to the chase and how it relates to Scientology.

Their idea is that the individual who seeks power, whether the aristocrats of the past or the leaders of capitalism today, or those in power or seeking power, must differentiate themselves from the others in society.

They have to maintain to themselves that “I am not like them” (meaning others).

Now I am over-simplifying a detailed work.

But the idea is that the one who seeks power must differentiate themselves from those they wish to control.

They must maintain a different idea of self-understanding.

The ruler must think “I alone am in control of myself. My ego or self or mind is in control of my body. That’s not the case for those that are beneath me.”

The problem is that modern scientific rationality has defined this rational ego or self, emptying it of concrete values, sentimental commitments, and religious metaphysics, leaving only a supremely powerful instrumentally rational center of power, whose sense of self flourishes in separating it from all others.

The person becomes an ego that can do anything but believes in nothing.

They go on to say that the more you base social order on reason alone, the more you discover than reason has nothing substantive to say morally.

The more the modern scientific consciousness becomes sophisticated, the more in believes in nothing.

And when it believes in nothing, it is led to use other human beings as objects for them to use to obtain their means.

This is how I view OTs and the idea of being above the other humans.

The moral beliefs of others are discounted and there is no restraint on the OTs or the Church in getting what they want.

And even those in the Church who are beneath them are objects to be used.

So long as you have a person who believes himself to be above others (not just better at things but above them in quality of being) you get someone whose operating basis will not be to work with others for consensus but instead will use others as a means toward his own ends.

It is what the Church of Scientology does; it is what OTs strive to be able to do.

You can see remnants on this board, even from exes and definitely from trolls, whose smug self-certainty about how much better they are than others.

But it is even clearer in the actions and activities of believers in the states of OT.

There are not all entirely fascists, but even the kind ones believe they are special and above the rest.

They may be of good manners, but I would argue that is their form of manipulation rather than a sincere belief in equality.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
Why Scientology and OTs are inherently fascist.

Scientology, in or out of the Church of Scientology, is inherently fascist.

To demonstrate my point I have to draw on something written in the late 1940s.

But it wasn’t written about Scientology or Dianetics.

In the late 1940s two philosophers asked this question: How come, just when civilization was at its most sophisticated, democratic and scientific level, did society produce the barbarism of fascism in general and Nazism in particular?

It was a deep work, but I’m going to try and cut to the chase and how it relates to Scientology.

Their idea is that the individual who seeks power, whether the aristocrats of the past or the leaders of capitalism today, or those in power or seeking power, must differentiate themselves from the others in society.

They have to maintain to themselves that “I am not like them” (meaning others).

Now I am over-simplifying a detailed work.

But the idea is that the one who seeks power must differentiate themselves from those they wish to control.

They must maintain a different idea of self-understanding.

The ruler must think “I alone am in control of myself. My ego or self or mind is in control of my body. That’s not the case for those that are beneath me.”

The problem is that modern scientific rationality has defined this rational ego or self, emptying it of concrete values, sentimental commitments, and religious metaphysics, leaving only a supremely powerful instrumentally rational center of power, whose sense of self flourishes in separating it from all others.

The person becomes an ego that can do anything but believes in nothing.

---snipped--- for brevity

The Anabaptist Jacques

A very good analysis and summary, thanks.

I think what produces this elitist thinking is “success”. I mean success on a larger scale. With success usually comes access to money, rise in influence, higher social position and influence.

If one is struggling living from pay check to pay check trying to make ends meet, one will not be able to maintain “I am all powerful and can do what I want”. Unless of course, one would be nuts as Charles Mansion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson or the like.

It's the social rise which produces elitist thinking and behaviour. Or more precise, it's access to money or wealth, position of power over others and absence of insight to realize that success (over others – how weird!?) is only borrowed. Success and wealth is very temporary unless one gives back and treats people fairly. That's what I believe at least.

Now going back to your point that OT's tend to exhibit elitist characteristics. Now, I haven't observed that to be the case in general. However they do exist and a good example is certainly Tom Cruise. But again, in TC case it is his “success” outside Scientology which he mistakenly believes to be OT powers.

A run-of-the-mill OT is rather painfully aware of his insufficiencies. That he is not allowed to talk about it might be mistaken for arrogance which it isn't.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:
 

Veda

Sponsor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2l4bz1FT8U

From the Scientology 'Tech Dictionary':

"Operating Thetan, a thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space and time... an individual who can operate totally independently of his body whether he had one or didn't have one... a being at cause over matter, energy, space and time, form and life. Operating comes from 'able to operate without dependency on things'... ability to operate functionally against or with MEST and other life forms... this state of being is attained by drills and familiarity after the state of Clear has been obtained."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3z2Pm7Iwg
 

Veda

Sponsor
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

First off, "OT" is a Hubbardism. Anyone who calls himself "OT," or thinks in terms of "OT," places himself in the Hubbard box. (Some like the Hubbard box and make it their home.)

If an OT is no different from a pre-OT, a Clear, a Homo Novis, a Homo Sapiens, etc., then that "OT" is:

a) Not an OT.

b) Is fooling himself if calling himself "OT."

c) A Scientology PR person, presenting a PR line to a "PTS wog."

d) A Scientology registrar explaining to a disappointed OT level customer that OT really means being something else than he was told it meant.
 

Div6

Crusader
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

One of the key differentiators for me was the difference between "OT", and "Leadership". One can be an "OT" and be a stockboy, a gardener, any thing....there is no obligation to any particular beingness anywhere.....BUT, if one is thrust into a position of "Leadership" within a group, the "game" is proscribed by the "natural laws" surrounding "power" in the Bolivar PL. "Life has to have the right to shoot its enemies." and all the rest.

Does that make it inherently fascist? Well, the OP dropped that label without a working definition. In it's broadest sense a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government, although not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. Authoritarianism is thus a defining characteristic....


I will readily cede that the Scientological incarnations we have seen that were under Sea Org aegis have tended to be that way. The early mission network was not. I think it is obvious which one "worked" best.... The early missions cou;d afford to be "service oriented" and not so much "stat" oriented...
 
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

If "drop in the ocean" means other thetans, people, humans......other humans?????

Overt Product?
MU's?
Dilettante?
Failed case?
Unflat..whatever?
Other fish to fry?
Sweetness and light?
Theetie weetie?
New reg cycle,
Prospect,
Lower condition?
Etc......
 
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

Then he would probably be sent to Qual for Review.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
A very good analysis and summary, thanks.

I think what produces this elitist thinking is “success”. I mean success on a larger scale. With success usually comes access to money, rise in influence, higher social position and influence.

If one is struggling living from pay check to pay check trying to make ends meet, one will not be able to maintain “I am all powerful and can do what I want”. Unless of course, one would be nuts as Charles Mansion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson or the like.

It's the social rise which produces elitist thinking and behaviour. Or more precise, it's access to money or wealth, position of power over others and absence of insight to realize that success (over others – how weird!?) is only borrowed. Success and wealth is very temporary unless one gives back and treats people fairly. That's what I believe at least.

Now going back to your point that OT's tend to exhibit elitist characteristics. Now, I haven't observed that to be the case in general. However they do exist and a good example is certainly Tom Cruise. But again, in TC case it is his “success” outside Scientology which he mistakenly believes to be OT powers.

A run-of-the-mill OT is rather painfully aware of his insufficiencies. That he is not allowed to talk about it might be mistaken for arrogance which it isn't.

Actually, the authors did put this in the context of economic and social classes, so, good observation.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

Seriously, though. I should qualify this by saying in Scientology power has several contexts. But the OT power promoted and sold is a higher quality of being than us mere mortals.

A person may be looking for something else, but if they are, they should realize real soon that they are looking in the wrong place.

I joined Scientology becasue I believed it would help achieve a civilization without war, crime, and insanity.

I clung to that believe despite seeing all around me in Scientology antagonism and hostility, criminality, and insanity all under a realm of authoritarianism, and I always believed that authoritarism was the antithesis to civilization.

Yet I stuck around.

Sometimes when I saw a person in a bad way who wasn't a Scientologist I would say "There but for the grace of Ron goes I."

And without fail I would get the argument that the person was a DB and that I was better off because I was a bigger being.

Yet I stuck around.

But I never moved very far up the bridge.

Whenever I would get an A-J check to unceover my lack of progress I would be asked "Is there anyone antagonistic to you being a Scientologist?" I would reply, "Yes, most Scientologist I know."

Yet I stuck around.

Now I'm here.

For the individual, it works out in the end.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
The appeal of Communism, National Socialism, Scientology and the rest, is that they promised an ideal future which would supersede the flawed present. The price tag was absolute obedience to the Group and its Leaders, and a willingness to create some amount of suffering in the present in order to achieve that perfect future, which once achieved would last eternally.

Given a future of infinite value, what price can be demanded in the present to achieve it? Logically, infinite future value can demand an unlimited price in the present.

This leads to Statism: the belief that the individual's life and the products of his work belong to the State. (You can call it the State, the Group, the Church, or whatever you like)

Back in 1951, Eric Hoffer wrote a book "The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements"

From the Wiki on it

Hoffer argues that all mass movements such as fascism, communism, and religion spread by promising a glorious future. To be successful, these mass movements need the adherents to be willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the future goals. To do so, mass movements often glorify the past and devalue the present. Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, former soldiers, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavors. Hoffer quotes extensively from leaders of the Nazi and communist parties in the early part of the 20th century, to demonstrate, among other things, that they were competing for adherents from the same pool of people predisposed to support mass movements. Despite the two parties' fierce antagonism, they were more likely to gain recruits from their opposing party than from moderates with no affiliation to either.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
What if the person in question sought something other than power? What if the trip to "OT" led that person to the conclusion that each individual is special in his/her own way and that he, the OT, is no different nor "more special" than any other drop in the ocean? :confused2:

This appears to be the end product of Eastern philosophies, like Buddhism and Hinduism. Looking at the societies based on this, the viewpoint seems to produce poverty and social stagnation.

I'm thinking that a bit of egotism, conceit, and a desire to show superiority is a necessity for a society that wants to be prosperous. provided the society is structured to channel this desire into production rather than conquest.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
One of the key differentiators for me was the difference between "OT", and "Leadership". One can be an "OT" and be a stockboy, a gardener, any thing....there is no obligation to any particular beingness anywhere.....BUT, if one is thrust into a position of "Leadership" within a group, the "game" is proscribed by the "natural laws" surrounding "power" in the Bolivar PL. "Life has to have the right to shoot its enemies." and all the rest.

Does that make it inherently fascist? Well, the OP dropped that label without a working definition. In it's broadest sense a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government, although not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. Authoritarianism is thus a defining characteristic....


I will readily cede that the Scientological incarnations we have seen that were under Sea Org aegis have tended to be that way. The early mission network was not. I think it is obvious which one "worked" best.... The early missions cou;d afford to be "service oriented" and not so much "stat" oriented...

The very early efforts (independent field auditors and missions) needed to deliver some sort of results, where the PC came out and at least FELT himself to be happier and more able. They thus needed to be service oriented. The Darwinian process would weed out the ones who failed to achieve happy customers.

Unfortunately, this produced auditors and groups that became affluent, leading Hubbard to dream up a mechanism to seize all that.
 
One of the key differentiators for me was the difference between "OT", and "Leadership". One can be an "OT" and be a stockboy, a gardener, any thing....there is no obligation to any particular beingness anywhere.....BUT, if one is thrust into a position of "Leadership" within a group, the "game" is proscribed by the "natural laws" surrounding "power" in the Bolivar PL. "Life has to have the right to shoot its enemies." and all the rest.

Does that make it inherently fascist? Well, the OP dropped that label without a working definition. In it's broadest sense a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government, although not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. Authoritarianism is thus a defining characteristic....


I will readily cede that the Scientological incarnations we have seen that were under Sea Org aegis have tended to be that way. The early mission network was not. I think it is obvious which one "worked" best.... The early missions cou;d afford to be "service oriented" and not so much "stat" oriented...

I used fascism because there is a consistant strain of thinking between fascism and OTs. That is, that soome are better than others.

In communism, there is the belileve in equality, but within Leninism there was the historical component so the end justified the means and people were expendable.

But with fascist and OTs, the idea isthat they are better and superior than others and therefore should dominate.

Their Will or Postulates are more important than other beings.

Some may ask, "How do I know OTs think like this?" Because it is a corollary to the idea of being an OT.

It is implied in the definition.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
Here is something I posted here a while back which expands on my point:


In 1995, Umberto eco gave a speech at Columbia Univesity commemorating the 50th anniversary of the defeat of fascism.

In the speech, he listed 14 indicators of what he called “Eternal Fascism” or Ur-Fascism”, that is, fascist traits which are common to all forms of fascism. Eco said that fascism in the future would be different from the past on specific points and issues, but these general points are common to all forms of fascism.

I have shortened the description of each point. The italics are his, and I have put his words in quotation marks.

When I read this for the first time about twelve years ago I realized that Scientology by its nature was fascist.

See if any of these points look like Scientology to you.

As Eco put it “But all you need is one of them to be present, and a Fascist nebula will begin to coagulate.”

1. “The first characteristic of Ur-Fascism is cult of tradition.” Traditionalism, he explains, is an idea older than fascism, but the cult of tradition combines religious ideas that contradict each other but all are said to reveal original truth. He then explains “Consequently, there can be no advancement of learning. The truth has already been announced once and for all, and all we can do is continue interpreting its obscure message.”

2. “Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.” He goes on to explain that ideas like democracy and equality and freedom “and the Age of Reason were seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”

3. “Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action‘s sake. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. …suspicion of intellectual life has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism. The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly committed to accusing modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia of having abandoned traditional values.”

4. No form of [Ur-Fascism] can accept criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and distinguishing is a sign of modernity. In modern culture, the scientific community sees dissent as a tool with which to promote the advancement of learning. For Ur-Fascism, dissent is betrayal.”

5. “Dissent is moreover a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows and seeks a consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference.”

6. “Ur-Fascism springs from individual or social frustration.” He goes on to say that it will “appeal to the frustrated middle classes.”

7. “At the root of Ur-Fascist psychology lies the obsession with conspiracies, preferable international ones. The disciples must feel they are under siege.”

8. The disciples must feel humiliated by the enemy’s vaunted wealth and power. But the disciples must none the less feel they can defeat the enemy. Thus, the enemy is at once too strong and too weak. Fascist regimes are doomed to lose their wars, because they are constitutionally incapable of making an objective assessment of the enemy’s strength.”

9. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, a ‘life for struggle.’ Pacifism is therefore collusion with the enemy.”

10. Scorn for the weak. Ur-Fascism cannot do without preaching a ‘popular elitism.’ Every individual belongs to the best people in the world, party members are the best citizens, and every citizen can (or ought to be) become a party member. The leader, who is well aware that his power has not been attained by delegation but was taken by force, also knows his power is based on the weakness of the masses, who are so weak as to need and deserve a ‘dominator.’ Since the group is organized hierarchically (along military lines), each subordinate leader looks down on his inferiors, and each of his inferiors looks down in turn on his own underlings.”

11.“From this point of view, everyone is trained to be a hero.” He talks here about the idea of giving your life to the cause.”

12. “The Ur-Fascists transfer his will to power onto sexual questions. This is the origin of machismo (which implies contempt for women and an intolerant condemnation of non-conformist sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality).”

13. “Ur-Fascism is based on ‘qualitative populism.’ In a democracy the citizens enjoy individual rights…For Ur-Fascists individuals have no rights.”

14. “Ur-Fascism uses newspeak. ‘Newspeak’ was invented by Orwell in 1984. All the Nazi and scholastic texts were based on por vocabulary and elementary syntax, the aim being to limit the instruments available to complex and critical reasoning.”

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
You could also argue that it is a pack mentality at work, the alphas being in charge and the rest becoming subservient to the alphas needs. This could have deep roots. But, putting that aside - I think it is both the philosophy and reality that reinforces this behavior. The Nazi's philosophy is based on the existence and sanctity of the uber race, in Scientology philosophical concept of eternal life and the inherent indestructibility of the thetan gives rise to the freedom to harm in the name for a better tomorrow.

The reality at work in both cases is the vast number of beings loose on a small planet makes the leaders feel there is no harm done if a few die or many die or are wasted in the over all effort for the goal.

What is interesting is the selfishness of the goals. The pursuit of extreme wealth - the lack of a conscience, the willingness to steal or sell harmful products, or unsafe products to gain money, to find exclusive ownership of essential products ( such as seeds, water, food, medicine etc), market control, monopolies, it amazing to me. How can these people not think of the harm they are wreaking to gain their ends? What is so important about being a multi millionaire, a billionaire? And why do they have to suborn attempts to unseat them?

Does it go back to a simple Hubbard precept "The goal is to survive"? And survival equals domination?

You could go so far as to see it as an extension of eating - one destroys what one eats.

Mimsey
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Does it go back to a simple Hubbard precept "The goal is to survive"? And survival equals domination?

Mimsey


For a human, merely "To survive" is the irriducible minimum of existence, it is what successful animals do, it is what one tries to do in a concentration camp...(hint)
 
Yes Arnie, that is one aspect of survival. But I am saying the root cause is this urge, and it over whelms, it goes beyond mere eking out an existence, and becomes an all consuming urge. How many people's lives are being destroyed by the greed of Scientology? A billion and a half in SO reserves is pure greed. An exaggerated havingness if you will. Much like the richest few percent that own the bulk of our assets, and what do they do? They suborn the laws of the land to protect it from taxation, buy politicians, create soulless corporations to create more wealth. Scientology is no different. Try to get back your donos. Good luck with that. You know how the legal landscape is if anyone does.

I think it is some sort of basic mechanism in our makeup gone awry.

Mimsey
 
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