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Jenna Miscavige Hill's book: media & reviews

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Bitty

I thought it might be a good idea to give a little more info on my issue with Bitty Miscavige. I know that it’s great that Jenna wrote that book and I know it seems mean spirited to dump on her mom.

Starting around the late 80s, there was a huge push to get all the orgs renovated. It started with the orgs at Int (like Gold) then the HGB (the management building in LA), then Flag, then the SO bases. Following that was the Class V Orgs (the “ideal” orgs).

I have to say I don’t have all of the information as to how it went with all the renos projects. I was staff in PAC; so that one I know about. I heard stuff about Flag, and Gold, CC and the HGB. I have pieces of what occurred, but not everything.

To get these renos done in the ridiculous time frames they were given to be done, you had to have a huge team of people to do them. And to keep the cost down, they needed to be a team of people who got paid essentially nothing. Long story short: the first stage of any Scientology renos evolution was to put a big RPF there.

So, how it would go is this. And, like I said, I’m most familiar with PAC, but from what I got, they all pretty much went this way.

It would start with a big “ethics mission”. A CMO/RTC mission would fire into the area. The staff would be ordered to a mandatory muster and told they were all out ethics scum. Staff would be meter checked, sec checked, put under a microscope. Usually there would be some kind of “if the stats aren’t rocketed one person a day would be assigned to the RPF” or some such thing. One way or another, the RPF would swell to a number in the hundreds.

Then the renos would kick in, now that you had all this slave labor to do it.

This wasn’t all that went on, but this was really the core. There were declares and marriages busted up and kids sent away. There were shortened meals and no sleep and white gloves and all kinds of other stuff. But, in the end, it all came down to redoing the buildings.

It happened at Gold. It happened at the HGB. It happened at Flag; more than once. It definitely happened in PAC.

I can’t say for sure that Bitty ran every one of these ethics-through-renos evolutions, but she ran a lot of them. She ran the one at Flag in the early 90s. She ran the Freewinds renos. I blew PAC in 1996, during the middle of the “heavy ethics” part, when long time staff and tech people were getting blown apart right and left. She was running that one.

A lot of staff got ripped apart and destroyed by this. And, yeah, she took her orders from DM. And, yeah, ultimately she may have just been a pawn.

But she was up there, and she was giving the orders, and my friends were getting nuked.

So, sorry I’m such a bitch about this.

But I’ll never forget what it was like. What she was ordering to be done.

And the effects it created.

Those memories will never leave me.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Jenna Miscavige Hill's upcoming book: media & reviews

I heard this the day it was broadcast on satellite. It was great! Maybe my favorite interview so far.

The boys really treated her with respect and were sincerely curious about her stories.

A funny Travolta gag along the way too.

Good find! You'll enjoy. :thumbsup:
Totally refreshing! Just sooo different than typical interviews and honest real questions from a wog point of view with a sense of humor! I almost want to create a new thread so people don't miss it buried on 40+ pages. .... I'm feeling gutsy today...so I just might! :coolwink:
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bitty

I thought it might be a good idea to give a little more info on my issue with Bitty Miscavige. I know that it’s great that Jenna wrote that book and I know it seems mean spirited to dump on her mom.

Starting around the late 80s, there was a huge push to get all the orgs renovated. It started with the orgs at Int (like Gold) then the HGB (the management building in LA), then Flag, then the SO bases. Following that was the Class V Orgs (the “ideal” orgs).

I have to say I don’t have all of the information as to how it went with all the renos projects. I was staff in PAC; so that one I know about. I heard stuff about Flag, and Gold, CC and the HGB. I have pieces of what occurred, but not everything.

To get these renos done in the ridiculous time frames they were given to be done, you had to have a huge team of people to do them. And to keep the cost down, they needed to be a team of people who got paid essentially nothing. Long story short: the first stage of any Scientology renos evolution was to put a big RPF there.

So, how it would go is this. And, like I said, I’m most familiar with PAC, but from what I got, they all pretty much went this way.

It would start with a big “ethics mission”. A CMO/RTC mission would fire into the area. The staff would be ordered to a mandatory muster and told they were all out ethics scum. Staff would be meter checked, sec checked, put under a microscope. Usually there would be some kind of “if the stats aren’t rocketed one person a day would be assigned to the RPF” or some such thing. One way or another, the RPF would swell to a number in the hundreds.

Then the renos would kick in, now that you had all this slave labor to do it.

This wasn’t all that went on, but this was really the core. There were declares and marriages busted up and kids sent away. There were shortened meals and no sleep and white gloves and all kinds of other stuff. But, in the end, it all came down to redoing the buildings.

It happened at Gold. It happened at the HGB. It happened at Flag; more than once. It definitely happened in PAC.

I can’t say for sure that Bitty ran every one of these ethics-through-renos evolutions, but she ran a lot of them. She ran the one at Flag in the early 90s. She ran the Freewinds renos. I blew PAC in 1996, during the middle of the “heavy ethics” part, when long time staff and tech people were getting blown apart right and left. She was running that one.

A lot of staff got ripped apart and destroyed by this. And, yeah, she took her orders from DM. And, yeah, ultimately she may have just been a pawn.

But she was up there, and she was giving the orders, and my friends were getting nuked.

So, sorry I’m such a bitch about this.

But I’ll never forget what it was like. What she was ordering to be done.

And the effects it created.

Those memories will never leave me.

Lulu Belle, I just want to say, I don't think you're being a bitch at all and I'm grateful to hear this story and learn more. I don't think Bitty should be protected for anyone, including Jenna, and while it might be painful for Jenna to hear, I think she has also been critical of her mother.

I know what you are saying is exactly how it went down. I'm going through a "Jesse Prince" phase right now, and I can't remember which interview/blog/lecture it was, but somewhere he talked about being sent to the RPF right at the time that these renovations were occurring. He refused to stay up all night to work on something after being a Sea Org member for a few months and his punishment was that he was immediately sent to the RPF - he was so new he didn't even know what it was. He was forced to stay there, against his will (at least initially), for 18 months - the duration of the project that needed renovating.

I've also read the descriptions of people who stayed up days and nights renovating and building things, losing parts of fingers, having accidents with machinery (Amy Scobee wrote about falling asleep while working and waking up with a wheelbarrow beside her in a ditch)...I know one of the projects, I think the house that was built for LRH on Int Base, was torn down after all that labor and was rebuilt from the foundation - all the work rushed, all that sleep deprivation and crazy deadlines for nothing.

What I meant about the "shock" of people being on the RPF was that it must have been strange for top exes to go from executive dining rooms and special advantages to eating leftovers, slop, and manual labor. But maybe your point is, it wasn't. Still, as much as I feel Bitty was later victimized by DM, she made choices as well, including not seeing her daughter and bullying others. I don't know what else to say, but I appreciate your sharing. I have my theories about her behavior, but I think I've said enough for now.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Bitty

I thought it might be a good idea to give a little more info on my issue with Bitty Miscavige. I know that it’s great that Jenna wrote that book and I know it seems mean spirited to dump on her mom.

Starting around the late 80s, there was a huge push to get all the orgs renovated. It started with the orgs at Int (like Gold) then the HGB (the management building in LA), then Flag, then the SO bases. Following that was the Class V Orgs (the “ideal” orgs).

I have to say I don’t have all of the information as to how it went with all the renos projects. I was staff in PAC; so that one I know about. I heard stuff about Flag, and Gold, CC and the HGB. I have pieces of what occurred, but not everything.

To get these renos done in the ridiculous time frames they were given to be done, you had to have a huge team of people to do them. And to keep the cost down, they needed to be a team of people who got paid essentially nothing. Long story short: the first stage of any Scientology renos evolution was to put a big RPF there.

So, how it would go is this. And, like I said, I’m most familiar with PAC, but from what I got, they all pretty much went this way.

It would start with a big “ethics mission”. A CMO/RTC mission would fire into the area. The staff would be ordered to a mandatory muster and told they were all out ethics scum. Staff would be meter checked, sec checked, put under a microscope. Usually there would be some kind of “if the stats aren’t rocketed one person a day would be assigned to the RPF” or some such thing. One way or another, the RPF would swell to a number in the hundreds.

Then the renos would kick in, now that you had all this slave labor to do it.

This wasn’t all that went on, but this was really the core. There were declares and marriages busted up and kids sent away. There were shortened meals and no sleep and white gloves and all kinds of other stuff. But, in the end, it all came down to redoing the buildings.

It happened at Gold. It happened at the HGB. It happened at Flag; more than once. It definitely happened in PAC.

I can’t say for sure that Bitty ran every one of these ethics-through-renos evolutions, but she ran a lot of them. She ran the one at Flag in the early 90s. She ran the Freewinds renos. I blew PAC in 1996, during the middle of the “heavy ethics” part, when long time staff and tech people were getting blown apart right and left. She was running that one.

A lot of staff got ripped apart and destroyed by this. And, yeah, she took her orders from DM. And, yeah, ultimately she may have just been a pawn.

But she was up there, and she was giving the orders, and my friends were getting nuked.

So, sorry I’m such a bitch about this.

But I’ll never forget what it was like. What she was ordering to be done.

And the effects it created.

Those memories will never leave me.

Sounds like a repeat, or successful action, of the 1982 San Francisco Mission Holders Conference.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/audit/missions.html

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/Section2/us_mission_holders_conference.htm
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Bitty

. . . . .

A lot of staff got ripped apart and destroyed by this. And, yeah, she took her orders from DM. And, yeah, ultimately she may have just been a pawn.

But she was up there, and she was giving the orders, and my friends were getting nuked.

So, sorry I’m such a bitch about this.

But I’ll never forget what it was like. What she was ordering to be done.

And the effects it created.

Those memories will never leave me.

It seems to me that Scientology excels at prodding fundamentally decent people into doing bad things. Even if you heart is pure as Gold, Scientology will take its toll.

Extended involvement with Scientology, especially within the ultra-controlled Sea Org, actually causes the person to change (for the worse) at the deepest levels.

I don't judge people on whether they have nice thoughts, kind intentions, or claims to helping others, and I ONLY judge them on their behaviors - what they DO, what they DID, what they will DO tomorrow. Really, I am a non-judgmental person, and while I don't judge others much, I very much DO ascertain nasty behavior patterns so that I can keep a FAR distance from the imbeciles, meanies, and non-compassionate people of this world (Hubbard's Scientology often creating such numb and uncaring people).

There is a constant tension and contradiction in Scientology between the claims and the realities. On the one hand it talks about being responsible, uptone, "and "theta", but then actually practice of the subject with the ultra-controlled organization results in behaviors that are very much NOT "theta". In fact, many of the effects created by Scientology over the years are what I would call "entheta".

This contradiction between claims and realities takes the form of 1) Scientology ideas and stated ideals versus 2) actual Scientology behaviors. This is basically a disharmony between the Mind and the Physical. The realm of thought and the realm of behavior are at odds. For too many people the belief system of ideas takes over and dictates behavior, the Scientologist ceases to or never did actually see other people as "living, breathing entities just like his or herself", and the nasty behavior unfolds.

This is what happens in many fanatical movements that are driven by an ideology (as is Scientology). The IDEAS and BELIEFS take over and supersede any genuine kindness, concern and care for other people. In fact, as happens in Scientology, people will gladly and eagerly HURT others in the name of realizing their misguided ideals. And while this is not at all isolated to Scientology, this takes its own unique form in Scientology.

:scnsucks:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Re: Bitty

I blew PAC in 1996, during the middle of the “heavy ethics” part, when long time staff and tech people were getting blown apart right and left. She was running that one.

I was in the PAC RPF's RPF in March-June 1996. I've written about it in ESMB. It wasn't that bad for most of the time as I slept in a room with one other guy; we ate decent food before the regular RPF and had the pick of the best foods (it was proper food too); it was a small unit of about ten people and the person in charge was decent. The work wasn't as bad as it could have been, and was non-injurious. I was getting a Leaving Sec Check so got enough sleep, and the auditing was reasonably in-tech and non-traumatic. Then the influx of tech guys from PAC happened. Over the space of maybe a week the RPF's RPF swelled to over 50 people and became pretty much a nightmare.

I had been waiting weeks to route out as my sec check was long finished. After working through two nights (no sleep the first night, 2 hours the second) I basically collapsed and got offloaded that same day before I died on them. Heh.

Paul
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Re: Bitty

I was in the PAC RPF's RPF in March-June 1996. I've written about it in ESMB. It wasn't that bad for most of the time as I slept in a room with one other guy; we ate decent food before the regular RPF and had the pick of the best foods (it was proper food too); it was a small unit of about ten people and the person in charge was decent. The work wasn't as bad as it could have been, and was non-injurious. I was getting a Leaving Sec Check so got enough sleep, and the auditing was reasonably in-tech and non-traumatic. Then the influx of tech guys from PAC happened. Over the space of maybe a week the RPF's RPF swelled to over 50 people and became pretty much a nightmare.

I had been waiting weeks to route out as my sec check was long finished. After working through two nights (no sleep the first night, 2 hours the second) I basically collapsed and got offloaded that same day before I died on them. Heh.

Paul


Paul, what did you think of my evaluation of the renos evolutions? Does it sound accurate to you?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Re: Bitty

Paul, what did you think of my evaluation of the renos evolutions? Does it sound accurate to you?

It accords with what I have read. I don't really have much personal experience as I worked in ITO at the HGB from 1989-1995 and didn't see much of PAC. I slept in Leb Hall but had little interaction with the PAC orgs.

Around 1991 the KTL evolution at ITO started. A bunch of tech staff were needed to deliver it, and came from the PAC RPF in a mass "reprieve" cycle. Like John McGurk and Karen Scheer, previously ASHO (?) tech staff.

At the time I would not have believed a callous Int Mgmt game plan of "We need 200-250 renos crew for 2-3 years. Let's invent a vaguely-plausible excuse and RPF 250 local crew, then deny anyone's graduation CSW until the renos are done, then invent another vaguely-plausible excuse so we can rip them out of the RPF and staff up whichever unit(s) will make Int Mgmt the most money." However, now. . . .

Paul
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Re: Bitty

At the time I would not have believed a callous Int Mgmt game plan of "We need 200-250 renos crew for 2-3 years. Let's invent a vaguely-plausible excuse and RPF 250 local crew, then deny anyone's graduation CSW until the renos are done, then invent another vaguely-plausible excuse so we can rip them out of the RPF and staff up whichever unit(s) will make Int Mgmt the most money." However, now. . . .


I know. It's only been recently that I realized that this really was deliberate.

But since every single renos evolution started with a heavy ethics mission that filled the RPF, and the longer renoes went on the longer the RPF assignments went on...it's kind of obvious.

Do you remember when they finished the CC renos and there was that amnesty that sprung everyone off the RPF? Then just about all the RPFers (except for a few who belonged to someone important uplines), regardless of what org they came from, were sent to work at the Manor? The orgs were PISSED. Understandably. Here they had been paying for staff to be there for god knows how long, only to have them ripped off and sent somewhere else.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: Bitty

I thought it might be a good idea to give a little more info on my issue with Bitty Miscavige. I know that it’s great that Jenna wrote that book and I know it seems mean spirited to dump on her mom.

Starting around the late 80s, there was a huge push to get all the orgs renovated. It started with the orgs at Int (like Gold) then the HGB (the management building in LA), then Flag, then the SO bases. Following that was the Class V Orgs (the “ideal” orgs).

I have to say I don’t have all of the information as to how it went with all the renos projects. I was staff in PAC; so that one I know about. I heard stuff about Flag, and Gold, CC and the HGB. I have pieces of what occurred, but not everything.

To get these renos done in the ridiculous time frames they were given to be done, you had to have a huge team of people to do them. And to keep the cost down, they needed to be a team of people who got paid essentially nothing. Long story short: the first stage of any Scientology renos evolution was to put a big RPF there.

So, how it would go is this. And, like I said, I’m most familiar with PAC, but from what I got, they all pretty much went this way.

It would start with a big “ethics mission”. A CMO/RTC mission would fire into the area. The staff would be ordered to a mandatory muster and told they were all out ethics scum. Staff would be meter checked, sec checked, put under a microscope. Usually there would be some kind of “if the stats aren’t rocketed one person a day would be assigned to the RPF” or some such thing. One way or another, the RPF would swell to a number in the hundreds.

Then the renos would kick in, now that you had all this slave labor to do it.

This wasn’t all that went on, but this was really the core. There were declares and marriages busted up and kids sent away. There were shortened meals and no sleep and white gloves and all kinds of other stuff. But, in the end, it all came down to redoing the buildings.

It happened at Gold. It happened at the HGB. It happened at Flag; more than once. It definitely happened in PAC.

I can’t say for sure that Bitty ran every one of these ethics-through-renos evolutions, but she ran a lot of them. She ran the one at Flag in the early 90s. She ran the Freewinds renos. I blew PAC in 1996, during the middle of the “heavy ethics” part, when long time staff and tech people were getting blown apart right and left. She was running that one.

A lot of staff got ripped apart and destroyed by this. And, yeah, she took her orders from DM. And, yeah, ultimately she may have just been a pawn.

But she was up there, and she was giving the orders, and my friends were getting nuked.

So, sorry I’m such a bitch about this.

But I’ll never forget what it was like. What she was ordering to be done.

And the effects it created.

Those memories will never leave me.

I met Bitty twice I think - briefly both times. Never had much to do with her but I do know that the undeserved and unearned power given to people in Scientology brings out the very worst in the character of some of those people. Not all of them - but enough to make it clear that Scientology and, in particular the SO, are an enabler for psychotic behavior.

The few I knew that seemed to not unleash a very nasty part of their character when given such power would be Guillaume, John Nelson, Arthur (CO CMO CW in 86 who ended up on the rpf as my twin - Kehrli and I called him Arthur Dent) and Karen Mathieson

Good lord the insanity of that organization really did generate a lot of assholes.
 

Div6

Crusader
Re: Bitty

I know. It's only been recently that I realized that this really was deliberate.

But since every single renos evolution started with a heavy ethics mission that filled the RPF, and the longer renoes went on the longer the RPF assignments went on...it's kind of obvious.

Do you remember when they finished the CC renos and there was that amnesty that sprung everyone off the RPF? Then just about all the RPFers (except for a few who belonged to someone important uplines), regardless of what org they came from, were sent to work at the Manor? The orgs were PISSED. Understandably. Here they had been paying for staff to be there for god knows how long, only to have them ripped off and sent somewhere else.

I believe the "historical precedent" (ie: successful action) came from the Wayne Marple mission to reno Cedars of Lebanon when it was first acquired by the CoS. An inordinate amount of "List 1 R\S'ers" were found and RPF'ed. They then became the "reno crew".

Conscription has a long history on this planet....
 

David C Gibbons

Ex-Scientology Peon
Re: Jenna Miscavige Hill's upcoming book: media & reviews

Scientology...where ANYTHING can be justified in the name of the greater good. There is a sickening irony in L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology styling itself a Crusade, considering the horrors committed in the Name of God by the Historical Crusades. Anyone remember reading about the 'Children's Crusade'? Steep yourselves in the irony.

The Noble's sons who led most of the historical Crusades in the end created 'Christian Kingdoms' from the land wrested from the inhabitants of the Holy Lands and their unfortunate neighbors, in the name of God. (In the many unsuccessful Crusades, many died and vast fortunes were lost for no gain at all.) Those little Christian Kingdoms were constitutionally unable to stand together against the rising tide of Islam, and little can be seen of them now save some decaying piles of stone across the Northern Mediterranean and the Levant.

In the name of 'Clearing the Planet', money is grubbed, lives and families blighted or destroyed, so that Scientology's leader can have his own little Kingdom here on Earth. Back in the distant past, the Venetians profited by facilitating the madness. Today it's Scientology's hired lawyers and private investigators.

God wept.

Down with Scientology! (Yes, I'm grumpy today)
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Re: Bitty

I met Bitty twice I think - briefly both times. Never had much to do with her but I do know that the undeserved and unearned power given to people in Scientology brings out the very worst in the character of some of those people. Not all of them - but enough to make it clear that Scientology and, in particular the SO, are an enabler for psychotic behavior.

The few I knew that seemed to not unleash a very nasty part of their character when given such power would be Guillaume, John Nelson, Arthur (CO CMO CW in 86 who ended up on the rpf as my twin - Kehrli and I called him Arthur Dent) and Karen Mathieson

Good lord the insanity of that organization really did generate a lot of assholes.


Hate to say this, but looking back, most of the psychotic power hungry ones I remember were female.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Re: Bitty

Do you remember when they finished the CC renos and there was that amnesty that sprung everyone off the RPF? Then just about all the RPFers (except for a few who belonged to someone important uplines), regardless of what org they came from, were sent to work at the Manor? The orgs were PISSED. Understandably. Here they had been paying for staff to be there for god knows how long, only to have them ripped off and sent somewhere else.

I didn't see that part of it. The part I saw was a bunch of "utilization surveys" done in the HGB and dozens (?) of staff, particularly FB staff, being reposted in the Manor. That must have been a shock to them, to go from the relatively high status of middle-management FB and maybe (brevet) Lt-Cmdr rank as a Programs Chief to lowly Estates Org staff with their actual Petty Officer rating in a lower-echelon sector.

I escaped being considered unutilized by holding a tech post in ITO, and none of the techies were removed.

But yes, it used to piss me off when org staff got ripped off after their org had supported them for years on the RPF or at some upper org getting trained. I first encountered this when FBO AOSHUK, and learned from experience why it's a waste of time to send staff for training who aren't qualled by virtue of genuine production record, good student, and long-term loyalty etc.

Paul
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Re: Bitty

But yes, it used to piss me off when org staff got ripped off after their org had supported them for years on the RPF or at some upper org getting trained. I first encountered this when FBO AOSHUK, and learned from experience why it's a waste of time to send staff for training who aren't qualled by virtue of genuine production record, good student, and long-term loyalty etc.


That's one of the reasons you will almost never see a service org send one of its staff to the RPF or any kind of decks program. They usually only wind up there because CMO or a mission sends them there. They know the chances of actually getting the person back after they support them there for god knows how long are slim to none. And if someone high enough up wants to rip them off, there isn't a whole lot they can do.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bitty

It seems to me that Scientology excels at prodding fundamentally decent people into doing bad things. Even if you heart is pure as Gold, Scientology will take its toll.

Extended involvement with Scientology, especially within the ultra-controlled Sea Org, actually causes the person to change (for the worse) at the deepest levels.

I don't judge people on whether they have nice thoughts, kind intentions, or claims to helping others, and I ONLY judge them on their behaviors - what they DO, what they DID, what they will DO tomorrow. Really, I am a non-judgmental person, and while I don't judge others much, I very much DO ascertain nasty behavior patterns so that I can keep a FAR distance from the imbeciles, meanies, and non-compassionate people of this world (Hubbard's Scientology often creating such numb and uncaring people).

There is a constant tension and contradiction in Scientology between the claims and the realities. On the one hand it talks about being responsible, uptone, "and "theta", but then actually practice of the subject with the ultra-controlled organization results in behaviors that are very much NOT "theta". In fact, many of the effects created by Scientology over the years are what I would call "entheta".

This contradiction between claims and realities takes the form of 1) Scientology ideas and stated ideals versus 2) actual Scientology behaviors. This is basically a disharmony between the Mind and the Physical. The realm of thought and the realm of behavior are at odds. For too many people the belief system of ideas takes over and dictates behavior, the Scientologist ceases to or never did actually see other people as "living, breathing entities just like his or herself", and the nasty behavior unfolds.

This is what happens in many fanatical movements that are driven by an ideology (as is Scientology). The IDEAS and BELIEFS take over and supersede any genuine kindness, concern and care for other people. In fact, as happens in Scientology, people will gladly and eagerly HURT others in the name of realizing their misguided ideals. And while this is not at all isolated to Scientology, this takes its own unique form in Scientology.

:scnsucks:

Thank you for this important point. I've read several testimonials from ex-Scientologists who witnessed or participated in abuse and a common theme is that you learn from "greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics" that Self is just one many factors to consider, with loyalty to the church, to the group, to the tech superseding one's personal needs. Add to that the idea of a your body being "raw meat" anyway, something that you have dropped many times over thousands, perhaps millions of years - what's one little slap, punch or kick when considering clearing the planet and possibly endangering your eternity for speaking out or fighting back?

I think the Sea Org probably attracts different kinds of people, just like the military or the police department does. There are those who genuinely want to help, offer service and fight for freedom or ideals. Then there is the person who like the intensity of taking a subject full on, of being part of group committed to the same purpose and who doesn't mind sacrificing their personal needs if is for a cause they believe in. Then there may be the person who is already predisposed to pathological tendencies and who is looking for the proper "container" to act out the kind of violence, brutality, cruelty that isn't usually sanctioned in the "real world" but is okay in the context they are in. Like the man who joins the military during war because he wants to kill people and basically get away with it - murder sanctioned by the State. I think the emotional and physical violence and humiliation in the Sea Org could appeals to a certain kind of person who thrives under totalitarian control. Nazis come in all shapes and sizes.

And then there are other people, I consider myself in this group, who might get in for the right reasons, but because of experiences in my own past that make me psychologically vulnerable, would be susceptible to brain washing. This is the kind of person who is an idealist at heart, and wants to feel omnipotent to heal through their issues of low-self esteem. This person may not start out brutal, but through a series of brainwashing experiences can be trained to become closer to the psychotic person mentioned above. Outside of this context, this person probably would never behave this way - like the person who steals because they are hungry - but they feel they have to do what they have to do in order to survive.

I'm not saying these are the only categories of people in Scientology, but my point is, whenever I read stories about abuses within the church, I always wonder how many people would have behaved this way in any other context. And to what extent is one responsible when they have been brainwashed. For example, I cannot understand Bitty only seeing her daughter 4 times between the ages of 12-18...but at the same time, I haven't been raised in the church from the age of six...it's all so complicated. At the same time, do I think someone should go to jail for Lisa McPherson, absolutely.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Bitty

I'm not saying these are the only categories of people in Scientology, but my point is, whenever I read stories about abuses within the church, I always wonder how many people would have behaved this way in any other context.

As I see it, people behave differently in various contexts.

I become a different person depending on my surroundings. Part of that is that I simply respond to who or what is in front of me, and I can easily tune into who and what they are, happily finding a part of myself that can easily resonate with that bundle of energy sitting in front of me.

If each of us are on some near eternal path of growth, then it seems that life circumstances help us to get to know who we are (at that moment), and allows us opportunities to learn from these experiences. In a very real way we each grow and become different than we were before.

I know that if I now found myself in a situation similar to Scientology, that my view of things would be different, and I would NEVER act in some of the ways I did before.

It seems to me that while we are each a certain bundle of views, habits, opinions and behaviors, and even while this is somewhat fixed at any given moment, the CONTEXT any of us are in creates a set of unique relationships that brings out some aspect of each of us.

For sure, some of the people who came to act like total assholes while in the Sea Org were quite fine outside of that context. And, they probably have little or no interest in ever again finding themselves in that sort of environment. And, some are assholes when out just as they were when in.

When I was in the Sea Org, I slightly became somebody who I didn't like nor want to be - so I got out. I knew that I couldn't EVER be what they wanted me to be, and I had no desire to try to. For example, I was on a reg post for awhile. Simply, I could never adopt the phony certainty and parrot all the Hard Sell references (which I was familiar with) that was necessary to take large amounts of money from people. I could never play the manipulation games that were necessary. I couldn't be that dishonest to myself.

I suppose that I noticed early in myself that I changed quite a bit as did the forces and influences in my environment. So, I tended to put myself in environments and situations that brought out a "me" that I better liked. The Sea Org did not at all bring out a "me" that I had any respect in or admiration for. :no:
 
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