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Fundamentalist KSW IS blog: What is RIGHT with Scientology

Gib

Crusader
Originally Posted by Bill
This whole fundamentalist KSW article is a perfect example of what is wrong with Scientology. It carefully looks at all the words and completely avoids looking at the results.

It is the words that trap you. The vast promises of miracles and grandiloquent rhetoric make you think Scientology is good and wonderful -- as long as you never, ever look at the results. "Miracles"? Nope. Abuses, failures, corruption? Lots.

The article is a flawless demonstration of exactly what is wrong with Scientology.



Why do I continue to hang around ESMB?

Brilliant, simple, piercing posts like this one!

Props to you!
245.gif

Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

The only thing you can be upbraided for is no results per KSW. Carefully worded by hubbard. One does get results :clap:,
but the EP. :confused2:

One gets words on a success story. But no real hard evidence, and they prove it by saying, it's subjective the results. OMG. And then they say Why are you trashing my religion?

Simple, your religion says so and so EP happens, but yet you can't prove there is a clear or OT.

And to boot, where are the follow up stats on a person doing the bridge?

How many involved in scientology from the very beginning to now. What are their stats? Are they better off stats wise financially, dynamics wise, happiness wise?

Funny how those stats are never promoted or talked about.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
You seem to be missing the point;

Steve Hall and many others "do not know" because Marty and Mike do not let them know....

Steve of course has demonstrated ignorance. Such as his statements
that the FZ is responsible for the bad situations of CO$ members in
the church. Which he has recanted.

That you say M&M is responsible for his ignorance demonstrates you are at least as stupid as Steve.

CO$ with its money and other resources can't stop their exposure on the net or block info.

You think M&M can do more?

Or want to?

Please explain yourself.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Someone writes in the comments:

Michael,
This is an excellent blog article. Thank you for posting it. There is much right about Scientology. In fact, all of Scientology - tech, admin, ethics - is right, if rightly and standardly applied.


Who the hell are these people? WTF? All of it is right?.... I don't even know what to say. I feel sick, literally.
 
... Okay - here is some refute - if Dianetics worked - then why is Miscavige a raving lunatic? ...

Why would you assume he has had, or even sought, any decent auditing?

Given reports of Miscavige's attitude regarding the relative value of himself vis a vis others I wouldn't imagine him either seeking out auditing for himself or addressing auditing honestly in a session setting had an occasion found him to be in one. Pity the poor auditor assigned by the C/S to do a session Joburg on Davy Boy. Pity the C/S. :bwahaha:

Auditing isn't "magic" that works without the active interest and participation of the pc. Nor is it equally effective regardless of the attitude and skill of the auditor. Many staff and former SO members in particular often had very poor access to decent auditing. One of the key violations of the contract implicit between the church and its staff. Though in Miscavige's case it seems to be more of a question of his personal ego and will interfering with potential "case progress" than any lack of access to auditing.


Mark A. Baker
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Not your secretary

Such matters are on this board.

Do your homework.

Hey, I'm not the one attempting to inject bald statements of "fact" into the converstation without being prepared to back them up. Accordingly, NO DOX = BOLLOCKS, and I can safely put your assertion down to yet another acceptable truth. Carry on.
 

Vittorio

Patron Meritorious
Many of us discussed the thread where this happened. Got to be at least a year ago if not longer. I don't have the thread or the blog post tagged anymore. I don't wish to dig over it too much. But some young guy posted on the blog and was not hostile in any way, but was honest and said he didn't believe in the tech. Marty asked him to refute something in Dianetics

Okay - here is some refute - if Dianetics worked - then why is Miscavige a raving lunatic? Why is Scientology a mess? It is a cult and it is crazy like Hubbard! Why did Hubbard go insane hiding in a trailer in California hiding from the law? Why does one get baited with Dianetics and then get "routed" on to the BRIDGE to total nowhere? A religion that boasts about freedom but NO ONE in the religion can say anything critical of the leader, the founder or the religion.:whistling:

You start with Dianetics and end up auditing off body theetans...you spend $$$,$$$ on your Bridge to find out at the top that you were auditing off your BT's past lives?

It is so easy to refute - step out of the cult and look lurkers...it is all there very easy to see the truth about this crazy and insane cult!

Scientology sucks! It does not work and I DO have evil intentions to destroy the cult by all legal means! Tell everyone I know to go on the internet and do their own research!! THAT works better than anything - speak out and tell everyone you know!

I can't answer this for you. I had trouble doing away with Scientology because I did so well with Dianetics initially. Had I only experienced Dianetics after being in the Church for some time and experienced the traumatic lifestyle staff members live, I might have not had those initial "gains" and would have done away with it far quicker.

Marty's answer to the young man was "you obviously haven't heard the clearing lectures". He responded to Marty that he was willing to listen to them and Marty then told him not to bother and with some of his gang, they chewed up the guy a bit more. Sad, sick and psychopathic behavior.

Steve of course has demonstrated ignorance. Such as his statements
that the FZ is responsible for the bad situations of CO$ members in
the church. Which he has recanted.

That you say M&M is responsible for his ignorance demonstrates you are at least as stupid as Steve.

CO$ with its money and other resources can't stop their exposure on the net or block info.

You think M&M can do more?

Or want to?

Please explain yourself.

I've not heard Steve say that the FZ is responsible for the bad situation in the Church, where did you get this from? I do know that Steve has shown public shock when he discovered the AAC and how successful it was and seems to have cognitive dissonance; he doesn't believe Mayo was an SP. There are threads on this board to attest to this. Marty has LIED by promoting himself as the first truly Independent Scientology movement.

Your the one who needs to do the explaining.


Terril is very good at asking for DOX, but very poor at providing them. He's never given any statistics to back-up the growth of the FZ. Course completions, auditing hours. The only growth I see is the amount of time Marty spends updating his blog, the growth in internal conflicts and the growth in cognitive dissonance which causes the former.

Hey, I'm not the one attempting to inject bald statements of "fact" into the converstation without being prepared to back them up. Accordingly, NO DOX = BOLLOCKS, and I can safely put your assertion down to yet another acceptable truth. Carry on.

Terril damands DOX but doesn't give. Don't expect much from him. Most people have given up.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
(snip)

I've not heard Steve say that the FZ is responsible for the bad situation in the Church, where did you get this from? I do know that Steve has shown public shock when he discovered the AAC and how successful it was and seems to have cognitive dissonance; he doesn't believe Mayo was an SP. There are threads on this board to attest to this.

(snip)


Check out this thread ... it concerns a rant Steve Hall posted on the Indies Facebook group a few months ago. In it, Steve blames the FZ for never having sought to put in the church's and Miscavige's ethics, leaving the Indies who came along later to shoulder that heavy burden. Or words to that effect.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?29123-Steve-Hall-s-post-on-closed-Indy-Facebook-group

The recent "nice things" he has said about the AAC and Mayo are (I'm guessing) the result of people having since turned him on to all the information available about Mayo and the AAC.

BTW, I don't blame Marty for Steve's having known little to nothing about Mayo's departure and the AAC. I blame Steve (who certainly knows where the Internet is) for failing to do even the most basic research about Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, ex-Scientologists, and its history.

I understand that Steve felt tremendously harmed by his years and experiences in the S.O. However, he proudly wears those big ole Scientology blinders that come with the conviction that "I know what I know and nobody can teach me anything new, so you better not contradict me."

He's got so many sunk costs in Independent Scientology. If he really wants to become more able it'll help if he can learn how to learn what he doesn't already know.

TG1
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Why would you assume he has had, or even sought, any decent auditing?

Given reports of Miscavige's attitude regarding the relative value of himself vis a vis others I wouldn't imagine him either seeking out auditing for himself or addressing auditing honestly in a session setting had an occasion found him to be in one. Pity the poor auditor assigned by the C/S to do a session Joburg on Davy Boy. Pity the C/S. :bwahaha:

Auditing isn't "magic" that works without the active interest and participation of the pc. Nor is it equally effective regardless of the attitude and skill of the auditor. Many staff and former SO members in particular often had very poor access to decent auditing. One of the key violations of the contract implicit between the church and its staff. Though in Miscavige's case it seems to be more of a question of his personal ego and will interfering with potential "case progress" than any lack of access to auditing.

Mark A. Baker
And here we have yet another example of what is wrong with Scientology. Here is the implication that the "correct" application of Scientology would have made a difference -- with no proof at all.

Ignoring, for the time being, that, if Scientology worked, the perceptive, powerful, ethical and effective Scientologists would never have allowed a sociopath to come to power, where is any evidence that Scientology would have done anything good for Miscavige (or anyone)?

Providing actual evidence that "Scientology works" would be dead simple. Show me independently verifiable evidence of before and after abilities and powers that match Scientology's promises. That's very, very easy. But True Believers can't and won't. Instead, they hide behind words - claims of results but no results.

Once again, words-words-words and nothing - NOTHING - to show for it.

Bill
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
He's got so many sunk costs in Independent Scientology. If he really wants to become more able it'll help if he can learn how to learn what he doesn't already know.

Scientology seems to work for a lot of people as a role-playing game about spiritual status. You can try to modulate your old status over into the new key of Independence, but I expect it can be a rough transition. Even if you really believe you found a lot of great stuff in Scientology, I don't think I've seen any ex-Scientologists who didn't admit that a lot of stuff was less than it was made out to be. The elaborate trappings of the Church of Scientology pumped up everything, even if it was bad, into something impressive. Anyone who leaves, it seems to me, is going to have to face a significant come-down. Even the ones who still believe they found some true gold are going to be looking at some shiny trophies with the foil flaking off, now.

Once you begin to realize that the super-expensive watch you've been flaunting for years was really a five-dollar gimcrack, becoming a founding member of the "Hoodwinked by a Cheap Knock-Off" club may be better than nothing, but it's still hard to feel really good about. People are bound to be irritable and upset for a while.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Why would you assume he has had, or even sought, any decent auditing?

Given reports of Miscavige's attitude regarding the relative value of himself vis a vis others I wouldn't imagine him either seeking out auditing for himself or addressing auditing honestly in a session setting had an occasion found him to be in one. Pity the poor auditor assigned by the C/S to do a session Joburg on Davy Boy. Pity the C/S. :bwahaha:

Auditing isn't "magic" that works without the active interest and participation of the pc. Nor is it equally effective regardless of the attitude and skill of the auditor. Many staff and former SO members in particular often had very poor access to decent auditing. One of the key violations of the contract implicit between the church and its staff. Though in Miscavige's case it seems to be more of a question of his personal ego and will interfering with potential "case progress" than any lack of access to auditing.


Mark A. Baker

I thought that Lawrence Wright wrote in his book that it was revealed at some point that the wünderkind David Miscavige, who was purportedly the "youngest auditor in Scientology history", admitted during a sec check that not only did he not know how to properly audit, but that he hadn't been properly audited himself.

Someone else who has read the book should be able to confirm this - but I remember reading that it was potentially quite a scandal, and that the auditor in question began getting into trouble himself for not clearing DM to go rapidly up the bridge (this was when DM was a teenager - several years after he'd been dropped from a special program for young Scientologists because he beat up a woman he was "auditing".)

There is a question whether DM truly knows anything about auditing, or Scientology for that matter. Hence the scandal of Lisa McPherson and his overseeing her case; determining that she was "clear" when she was clearly psychotic.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I can't answer this for you. I had trouble doing away with Scientology because I did so well with Dianetics initially. Had I only experienced Dianetics after being in the Church for some time and experienced the traumatic lifestyle staff members live, I might have not had those initial "gains" and would have done away with it far quicker.

Marty's answer to the young man was "you obviously haven't heard the clearing lectures". He responded to Marty that he was willing to listen to them and Marty then told him not to bother and with some of his gang, they chewed up the guy a bit more. Sad, sick and psychopathic behavior.



I've not heard Steve say that the FZ is responsible for the bad situation in the Church, where did you get this from? I do know that Steve has shown public shock when he discovered the AAC and how successful it was and seems to have cognitive dissonance; he doesn't believe Mayo was an SP. There are threads on this board to attest to this. Marty has LIED by promoting himself as the first truly Independent Scientology movement.

Your the one who needs to do the explaining.



Terril is very good at asking for DOX, but very poor at providing them. He's never given any statistics to back-up the growth of the FZ. Course completions, auditing hours. The only growth I see is the amount of time Marty spends updating his blog, the growth in internal conflicts and the growth in cognitive dissonance which causes the former.



Terril damands DOX but doesn't give. Don't expect much from him. Most people have given up.

Don't think anyone has any use for your snide evaluations, I
certainly don't.

Its on the first page of this thread here. Unfortunately its a
picture and I can't cut and paste it.

"Steve Hall's post on closed Indy Facebook group"

Infinite is real strong on DOX PLOX. He is though the one who posted
it.
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
Scientology seems to work for a lot of people as a role-playing game about spiritual status. You can try to modulate your old status over into the new key of Independence, but I expect it can be a rough transition. Even if you really believe you found a lot of great stuff in Scientology, I don't think I've seen any ex-Scientologists who didn't admit that a lot of stuff was less than it was made out to be.

Very well stated. I've actually NEVER spoken to ANY scientologist (when they'll sit still and give straight answers) who has done upper levels that actually believes the O.T. levels gives one "OT powers". Not a single, solitary one.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Don't think anyone has any use for your snide evaluations, I
certainly don't.

Its on the first page of this thread here. Unfortunately its a
picture and I can't cut and paste it.

"Steve Hall's post on closed Indy Facebook group"

Infinite is real strong on DOX PLOX. He is though the one who posted
it.

Indeed, I did post to ESMB Steve's attempt to bring Ethics to the the Free Indie Dependent Zone. However, lets review . . .

Steve of course has demonstrated ignorance. Such as his statements
that the FZ is responsible for the bad situations of CO$ members in
the church. Which he has recanted . . . <snip dribble> . . .

. . . see that highlighted bit, with the underline? That's what needs DOX.

See, Terril, DOX serve an important function in that calling for them acts as a kind of guardian against mistaken beliefs spreading, lies being injected into the discourse, as well as potentially identifying those who spread mistaken beliefs and lies. Now, it may well be that Steve "has recanted" from the sentiments expressed in that Facebook Ethics Session. I would be pleased to learn so if that's the case, which is why I asked for DOX. Geddit?
 

Sindy

Crusader
Indeed, I did post to ESMB Steve's attempt to bring Ethics to the the Free Indie Dependent Zone. However, lets review . . .



. . . see that highlighted bit, with the underline? That's what needs DOX.

See, Terril, DOX serve an important function in that calling for them acts as a kind of guardian against mistaken beliefs spreading, lies being injected into the discourse, as well as potentially identifying those who spread mistaken beliefs and lies. Now, it may well be that Steve "has recanted" from the sentiments expressed in that Facebook Ethics Session. I would be pleased to learn so if that's the case, which is why I asked for DOX. Geddit?

But he's not your secretary and you are responsible to find that which proves HIS point (that you hadn't heard until now). :faceslap:

Come on Terrill. Don't be an ass.
 
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