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Fundamentalist KSW IS blog: What is RIGHT with Scientology

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
But he's not your secretary and you are responsible to find that which proves HIS point (that you hadn't heard until now). :faceslap:

Come on Terrill. Don't be an ass.

Never ceases to amaze me how some Scientologists, usually those with a flimsy self appointing "altitude", get their panties bunched when asked for DOX. I'm wondering if its deemed some sort of personal invalidation or failure to "duplicate" or a threat to their version of reality . . . or something. Very "banky" response, though, I gotta say. A more considered approach, I suggest, might be to welcome a "DOX PLOX" as an opportunity to present and share the required information and also demonstrate, even if just to themself, they have personally learned to check information they deem worthy of repeating.

Anyhow, I think I found something which might, maybe, kinda, in a Xenu-world sorta way be mangled into a resemblance of a recantation . . .

Steve Hall said:
. . . I do see that the Freezone HAS distinguished themselves in the trenches against David McSatan numerous times by exposing his crimes and I'm very proud of you for that . . .

. . . no doubt Free Zoners all over "this planet" rejoiced by dancing in the streets when learning that Steve Hall was proud of them. Given the context in which that statement appears, I remain to be convinced its anything other than a temporary tactical retreat while the unexpected fuss and din the original tirade caused calmed down. On the other hand, I do struggle sometimes understanding the depth of the mind fuck. It may well be that snippet quoted above is the wog equivalent of: "ooops, very very sorry everybody, I lost it for a minute there, I wasn't feeling appreciated or understood, but lessons learned, I've got some lurk moar to do obviously, thanks for putting up with me".
 
... Terril is very good at asking for DOX, but very poor at providing them. He's never given any statistics to back-up the growth of the FZ. Course completions, auditing hours. ...

The reality is that those achieving such things are quietly just getting on with it. TP is trumpeting their successes loudly and broadly, although not based on having compiled or published any specific numbers. Many freezone auditors particularly prefer to maintain a very low key profile.


Mark A. Baker
 
... Here is the implication that the "correct" application of Scientology would have made a difference -- with no proof at all. ...

No, Bill. More accurately: it might have made a difference.

And there is ample evidence which supports this line of thought. Literally thousands of people, myself included, have acknowledged improvements in their lives as a result of having had decent auditing at some point in their involvement with the subject of scientology, whether in the church or not.

In contrast, those who have reported at best little benefit or even disastrous consequences resulting from the auditing they may have received have also typically described auditing that was clearly of poor quality or which violated the established procedures of the fundamentals of auditing. Accordingly, that must be considered when examining the likely reasons for the bad effects apparent from church auditing.

For all the lack of formal research procedures, there is good reason to consider that decent auditing from auditors with a legitimate interest in aiding their pcs can, and often does, result in significant benefits to the pc.

What is clear is that whatever the history of auditing in the church has been, for the last 30+ years, the availability of good auditing within the church of scientology has been increasingly unlikely. Nor is that surprising as as a result of the abuses which have become commonplace within the cult, the best auditors left long ago.


Mark A. Baker
 
I thought that Lawrence Wright wrote in his book that it was revealed at some point that the wünderkind David Miscavige, who was purportedly the "youngest auditor in Scientology history", admitted during a sec check that not only did he not know how to properly audit, but that he hadn't been properly audited himself. ...

It's a tale that has been out and about for years and one I find easy to believe. Even DoF has made some comment about it somewhere on the board from his years at St. Hill.


Mark A. Baker
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
And there is ample evidence which supports this line of thought. Literally thousands of people, myself included, have acknowledged improvements in their lives as a result of having had decent auditing at some point in their involvement with the subject of scientology, whether in the church or not.

In contrast, those who have reported at best little benefit or even disastrous consequences resulting from the auditing they may have received have also typically described auditing that was clearly of poor quality or which violated the established procedures of the fundamentals of auditing. Accordingly, that must be considered when examining the likely reasons for the bad effects apparent from church auditing.

For all the lack of formal research procedures, there is good reason to consider that decent auditing from auditors with a legitimate interest in aiding their pcs can, and often does, result in significant benefits to the pc.

(quote added to remove ambiguity)

Mark, replace "auditing" with "prayer" and you would find plenty of Christian groups making essentially the same assertions.

(Also added) Jeff Hawkins wrote an excellent article that relates to this. http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/the-anecdotal-fallacy/
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
It's a tale that has been out and about for years and one I find easy to believe. Even DoF has made some comment about it somewhere on the board from his years at St. Hill.


Mark A. Baker

Nope. I have no information from personal observation on the quality of DM's auditing, given or received, beyond one short session he gave me when he was a student auditor and I was very green. There was nothing remarkable about the (ruds) session I noticed at the time beyond how short he was.

Paul
 
... see that highlighted bit, with the underline? That's what needs DOX. ...

Then you should consider the need to be more specific in your requests for dox, rather than engaging in a general fishing expedition with your incessant demands for ....

"DOX PLOX"

I, for one, don't take such demands seriously as they lack any sensible element of courtesy or request. No one on the board owes you any answers.


Mark A. Baker
 
Nope. I have no information from personal observation on the quality of DM's auditing, given or received, beyond one short session he gave me when he was a student auditor and I was very green. There was nothing remarkable about the (ruds) session I noticed at the time beyond how short he was.

Paul

I stand corrected. All I remembered though was some sort of remark about a session with him once. No details.


Mark A. Baker
 
Mark, replace "auditing" with "prayer" and you would find plenty of Christian groups making essentially the same assertions.

Oh I fully acknowledged it can seem that way. I've known several people who claim to have gained personally from prayer. Some quite closely. I've known several hundred, myself included, who have gained from scientology. The claims made on behalf of prayer do not typically align well with the benefits known to be had from auditing.

The only prayer claim which came even remotely close was actually a prayer experience which occurred during that person's report of a Near Death Experience (nde) he had experienced. That person experienced an exteriorization and set of cognitions similar to phenomena commonly encountered by several pcs I've known who experienced similar phenomena as a result of auditing. Accordingly I'm more inclined to credit the NDE than the prayer as the actual cause of the gains experienced by the claimant.

NDE experiencers often report experiences similar to those which some have encountered in auditing, again, myself included. I personally suspect that reflects evidence of genuine commonalities of some character existing between these. It's one of the reasons that I discount claims of anoxia as producing the "oob" phenomena commonly experienced in an nde. Not only is the "oob" experience known to be produced by anoxia qualitatively quite distinct and different from that commonly reported by nde'rs, but the experience of the similar effects in auditing are certainly not attributable to a state of anoxia.


Mark A. Baker
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Then you should consider the need to be more specific in your requests for dox, rather than engaging in a general fishing expedition with your incessant demands for ....

"DOX PLOX"

I, for one, don't take such demands seriously as they lack any sensible element of courtesy or request. No one on the board owes you any answers.

This is the internet, Bakes. A new language is developing and it won't be hindered by last century, meat world notions of what consitutes your version of sensible courtesy. All sorts of new words and terms are in use. Catch up.

As far as my last DOX PLOX is concerned, the assertion made by Terril was bolded and underlined by me. That's pretty specific, dude.

Correct, no one on the board owes me anything, and I seldom expect anything. However, be advised, another useful function of the DOX PLOX is that it serves to highlight asssertions without apparent basis. DOX PLOX is kinda like a public service in that it keeps people honest (to an extent) and can help people identify false data they have previously believed. Here's an example:

. . . your incessant demands for .... "DOX PLOX"

DOX PLOX.
 
This is the internet, Bakes. A new language is developing and it won't be hindered by last century, meat world notions of what consitutes your version of sensible courtesy. All sorts of new words and terms are in use. Catch up. ...

And accordingly you can continue to expect to have your demands routinely ignored due to their obvious discourtesy.


Mark A. Baker
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
And accordingly you can continue to expect to have your demands routinely ignored due to their obvious discourtesy.

Meh! Bakes' "obvious discourtesy" is another person's perfectly reasonable response. Its still a WIN practise because assertions without basis will continue to be highlighted, as will those people who persist in making them and failing to deliver when called.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
I AM THE VERY MODEL OF A MODERN MAJOR-GENERAL!

Gee, so many demands for and resistance to DOX!

Earlier (on this thread?) I heard people asking for DOX and, knowing where it was, supplied a link. I guess that makes me everybody's personal army. In fact, ... I AM THE VERY MODEL OF A MODERN MAJOR-GENERAL!

[video=youtube;R1dy44jV8EM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1dy44jV8EM[/video]
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Indeed, I did post to ESMB Steve's attempt to bring Ethics to the the Free Indie Dependent Zone. However, lets review . . .



. . . see that highlighted bit, with the underline? That's what needs DOX.

See, Terril, DOX serve an important function in that calling for them acts as a kind of guardian against mistaken beliefs spreading, lies being injected into the discourse, as well as potentially identifying those who spread mistaken beliefs and lies. Now, it may well be that Steve "has recanted" from the sentiments expressed in that Facebook Ethics Session. I would be pleased to learn so if that's the case, which is why I asked for DOX. Geddit?

I'll see if I can find it. Hopefully someone will post first.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I'll see if I can find it. Hopefully someone will post first.

Someone did. There's a link in post #41. That's the "recantation" (is that a word?) that I recall, although Steve Hall may have posted more on the subject to further one point of view over the other.

Paul
 

Terril park

Sponsor
The reality is that those achieving such things are quietly just getting on with it. TP is trumpeting their successes loudly and broadly, although not based on having compiled or published any specific numbers. Many freezone auditors particularly prefer to maintain a very low key profile.


Mark A. Baker

The FZ is a guerrilla operation spread in small groups world wide.
I do my best to make sense of what statistics I can find. I don't
go knocking on their doors every thursday at 2pm!

In a recent London meeting with RO members Max and Erica
Hauri they were not able to tell me how many auditors ROs had.
Maybe in their own org with time to check they could have.

At this meeting were about 50.

Did have a figure of 2-3000 RO members a while back.

English speaking Yahoo forums may have 1500-2000. I'm
no longer a member of IFA/APIS but they have 3-4000 in their
facebook site.

Can't check non -english sites.

Then their are the independents who would add to this
and many new facebook groups have recently sprung up. Many
may be on several forums.

This is the best I can do. Doubt anyone anywhere has better info.

Perhaps you'd like to take on the hat of compiling WDAHs
worldwide for non CO$ auditing?
 
... I'm no longer a member of IFA/APIS but they have 3-4000 in their
facebook site. ...

Might I ask why you were booted? :whistling:


... Perhaps you'd like to take on the hat of compiling WDAHs
worldwide for non CO$ auditing?

Actually I'm amused that you would even consider asking given my oft stated views on hubbard's use of "stats". I personally quite like and respect the quietly getting on with it approach.

For the record, my response is "no".


Mark A. Baker
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
No, Bill. More accurately: it might have made a difference.

And there is ample evidence which supports this line of thought. Literally thousands of people, myself included, have acknowledged improvements in their lives as a result of having had decent auditing at some point in their involvement with the subject of scientology, whether in the church or not.

In contrast, those who have reported at best little benefit or even disastrous consequences resulting from the auditing they may have received have also typically described auditing that was clearly of poor quality or which violated the established procedures of the fundamentals of auditing. Accordingly, that must be considered when examining the likely reasons for the bad effects apparent from church auditing.

For all the lack of formal research procedures, there is good reason to consider that decent auditing from auditors with a legitimate interest in aiding their pcs can, and often does, result in significant benefits to the pc.

What is clear is that whatever the history of auditing in the church has been, for the last 30+ years, the availability of good auditing within the church of scientology has been increasingly unlikely. Nor is that surprising as as a result of the abuses which have become commonplace within the cult, the best auditors left long ago.

Mark A. Baker
I'm not going to argue with vague statements of "improvements in their lives". I'm sure it has happened that billions of people have experienced "improvements in their lives" due to billions of reasons. You statements really aren't making your point. Maybe Scientology was the cause of their vague "improvements" or maybe Scientology auditing was just coincidental to "improvements" that happen to everyone. There is no proof either way. If these vague improvements only happened to Scientologists and only immediately after auditing, then you might have a point -- but we all know that that just isn't so.

So, assigning cause to Scientolgy for their "improvements" isn't scientific or even particularly logical. Like I said, if vague "improvements" happen all the time all over the world -- without Scientology -- why attribute it to Scientology these times? It comes down only to belief, not science, not logic, not proof. I have no objection to belief causing improvements in people -- as long as we acknowledge what it is and not pretend that "Scientology works!"

However, back to my main point about the claim that Scientology might have helped Miscavige. That's like saying "a bucket of strawberries might help you win the lottery." Well, sure, I guess. But lacking any specifics -- and lacking any proof of that, it is highly speculative. Is there any evidence that Scientology has ever helped a sociopath (or any mentally troubled individual)? No. So, next we'll try a bucket of strawberries. :coolwink:

Bill
 

Sindy

Crusader
Then you should consider the need to be more specific in your requests for dox, rather than engaging in a general fishing expedition with your incessant demands for ....

"DOX PLOX"

I, for one, don't take such demands seriously as they lack any sensible element of courtesy or request. No one on the board owes you any answers.


Mark A. Baker

Oh, you too?

DOX PLOX...Is it that it's in all caps? Or not in usual English but in Internet speak? What?

It just means, back up what you say with some evidence of truthfulness. Everyone IS responsible for doing that if they don't want to be spreading rumor, or mindlessly repeating an uninspected "fact", both of which are, again, irresponsible.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Indeed, I did post to ESMB Steve's attempt to bring Ethics to the the Free Indie Dependent Zone. However, lets review . . .



. . . see that highlighted bit, with the underline? That's what needs DOX.

See, Terril, DOX serve an important function in that calling for them acts as a kind of guardian against mistaken beliefs spreading, lies being injected into the discourse, as well as potentially identifying those who spread mistaken beliefs and lies. Now, it may well be that Steve "has recanted" from the sentiments expressed in that Facebook Ethics Session. I would be pleased to learn so if that's the case, which is why I asked for DOX. Geddit?

Dox. Just want to save your panties from bunching.



==========
Steve Hall
Message to APIS and the Freezone

A contentious problem is an opportunity for a spectacular resolution.

There was an ARC break. Some people got very busy applying a Scientology basic: communication. Soon reality was established and the President of the APIS, Michael Moore said some very noble things that were noble not just because they sounded good, but because they restored understanding. It is clear to me that he is clearly fit to be the President of the Association of Professional Independent Scientologists. And he is flanked by some people, like Roy Selby, who make one remember what the word “Scientologist” is really all about.

Michael provided amazing documents here that demonstrate the exposition of Miscavige crimes on behalf of the Freezone even back into the '80s.

When I came out of the Church in 2004 I had no idea what was on the outside. All contact with the outside world had been cut off for many years.

After studying what to do about the problem for the whole of 2008 I realized I had to stand up as a Scientologist and speak out while also getting the tech back into use. I took my first pc in 18 years into session the next day, and I started building Scientology-cult.com that evening.

Quite independently, Marty Rathbun came to the same conclusion. He didn't build on anything I did. We were not even in comm. I’d heard he was dead. I had only spoken to him once in my life, in early Dec 2003 when Miscavige ordered Marty down to the Cine Conference room where Mike Rinder and I had been working day and night for several months scripting videos for events. When IG Ethics came down to "slam me on the meter" and "get my ethics in" as DM ordered, it was so evident that Marty was just as clueless as me, and actually he was nice. He didn't do any ethics handling. I was shocked that he would violate a direct order from COB, since he was expected to turn me inside out. Instead he just asked me what happened. I told him that Mike and I had made some edits that Miscavige ordered, but that Miscavige hated the result. Marty smiled his trademark half smile, letting me know he understood. This was no ethics handling. He asked me what I was going to do and I told him. And that was it. This was only about three weeks before Marty left and I think truth was dawning. Instead of inspiring me with fear and dread, I found in Marty a friend. The interview lasted all of 5 minutes. It was the first time I had ever spoken to him and the last time until February 2009. Most of the time Marty was not even at the Int base; he was off putting out legal fires lit up by David McPyro.

So it was a complete surprise after finally getting up the nerve to speak out against Miscavige and crossing that line by officially attacking him in writing in December 2008 as a Scientologist named "Thoughtful," when I bumped into none other but Marty Rathbun, walking down the very same trail.

He also had set out to expose DM's crimes as a Scientologist while also auditing!

And I, for one, had no idea anyone else had *ever* walked down that trail before us because I didn't personally know anything about the Freezone. I figured out what had to be done on my own... well, actually with my wife's help and also with the help of Dan Koon with whom I discussed matters nearly daily throughout 2008.

It is a shame that proper introductions were never done between Independent Scientology and the Freezone, not even when Karry started this group. We all could have learned much about each other's similarities at the outset and bypassed some of the noise.

A number of times we Indies have heard, "But you guys are not the original Indies, we are." Today I can see that statement has a basis in fact. But as the Freezone played no part in cementing my own direction or resolve, just as I played no part in cementing Marty's direction and resolve, it sounded like someone was just trying to nullify our accomplishments by attributing our ideas and successes to others, and invalidating the personal pain we had endured to get here.

I had a number of close friends who did not make it. The suppression was too much. The betrayal too grand. One took his own life — Greg Bashaw, leaving a beautiful wife and son. Greg was my mentor as a copywriter. Another died after staying up all night working on David Miscavige's new $35 million mansion where 10 people work. He left a widow and young daughter in LA. Joe Harrison. He was a carpenter imported temporarily from PAC, not even Int base staff; and the suppression killed him. Then there was a 16-year-old girl who was decapitated in a car wreck involving an all hands late one night on the highway. I think it was a Tuesday night. Staff were conducting emergency preparations of the grounds for Miscavige's arrival the next morning. The girl’s mother witnessed the accident and was the person who found her daughter's severed head in the back seat of her car. All this happened next to my office at the Cine castle and the mother's screams ripped existence and redefined for me the meaning of pain. Then there was Judy Ferguson, a lonely friend who worked in CMU. She got cancer. I was going to hold a funeral service for her since I am an ordained minister, but when Miscavige found out he forbid anyone to leave post. Mary Sue Hubbard also died. I was in Diana Hubbard’s office when I found out. I spent a lot of time working with Diana writing scripts for David McSickness. "Not a word was spoken, the Church bells all were broken." Not a single *word* for the woman who had done more for Scientology than any other living human. Then were numerous others some who died horribly, like the teenage girl who had only been at the Int base for 2 months when she apparently committed suicide by grasping a 20,000 volt power line in an underground bunker on a Sunday morning in 2001. Her carbonized fist was still holding onto the line after they cut off the power. Then there was my own wife, whom hoped to have a child with. There was a time I thought surely she was pregnant, but she denied it. Not only would a daughter be the answer to my prayer, but it would be a swift ticket to a new life out side that hell hole, the best possible outcome. On Miscavige orders, however his staff coerced my wife to abort our child without even consulting me. I didn't get confirmation she had even been pregnant until 2008, when another woman told me of my ex-wife's secret abortion. The knowledge that my own child was killed on orders of David Miscavige makes my soul cry in a way that never stops.

But it's not because of what happened to me that I decided to expose DM's crimes. It's to protect others from similar deprivation, degradation and devastation. In Scientology we have a question we have all heard and answered a thousand times:

"Would you want someone else to have similar gains to yours?"

And the answer is always yes. In fact, that was the very reason I joined staff in the first place in 1979. But there's another side to the same coin.

"Would you want someone else to have similar pain to yours?"

And if the one can be answered “Yes,” WHO could not but answer the second “No”?

So I advocate doing both. I don’t think the job can be done any other way. And frankly, we need everyone’s help to do both.

The job is certainly not grim because we are winning.

I do see that the Freezone HAS distinguished themselves in the trenches against David McSatan numerous times by exposing his crimes and I'm very proud of you for that. I wish the voices of the Freezone had been loud enough for me to hear when I was still entrapped at the Int base. If I had known the Bridge was available outside the Church of Scientology my path would certainly have been different for I was trying desperately to find a solution. People inside do not know OT is available outside the Church because they are carefully fed false information.

Surely too, while you guys were outside, I was inside on the wrong team. But when I joined the SO, LRH was still alive. I had never even heard of Kaboom McTinyfists.

As the Sea Org atmosphere became increasingly toxic, I tried everything to change it back including speaking out that “the problem with the Int base is that the top execs are intentionally misusing ethics to create an environment of fear and intimidation instead of ARC." Within hours I was in the RPF, with no money and not even a tooth brush or a bar of soap, 90 miles from my wife, with no idea why I was even there.

I tried every way to fix the problem from the inside. And 14 years later when I was finally taken off post, to be “off-loaded” from the Int base in December 2003, it was because DM found out I had secretly gotten 35 people to read a book that said, "The problem with the world is it's a planet of victims. Stop being a victim and take responsibility for yourself." I was still trying break DM's hold from the inside and it just wasn’t possible to do. So really while you guys were outside trying to solve the problem, many of us WERE trying to fix it from the inside. And getting slaughtered for our efforts and even having our children murdered.

I don’t want to see a truce. I want to see the APIS, the Freezone and Independent Scientology work in concert to bring the world similar wins and gains to our own, while also protecting them from the catastrophic pain that David Miscavige will inflict.

The Key Question of Scientology opens one lock and closes another.

Thoughtful
 
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