Independent Scientologist exlains the E-Meter and Mental Mass

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263738

marildi | April 23, 2013 at 3:22 am | Reply

Darkest hour, there’s a book called Understanding the E-meter, where you can read all about what the meter reads on and the mechanics of the e-meter itself. Here’s an excerpt and the link to the book:

———————————————

“Now do a “pinch test” on somebody. Set up the meter and get someone to hold the cans. Tell the person that you are going to do a pinch test and then with the person holding the electrodes and the sensitivity set at normal for that person, with the needle visible on the meter dial, give a strong pinch on the person’s arm. Notice that there is a reaction on the meter and the needle moves. This is often accompanied by a rise in tone arm position.

“You just saw life’s NOW reaction to applied force. It generated energy. If the TA also rose, it was because the added mass caused the carrier wave to be impeded so the tone arm had to be moved higher.

“Now ask the person to, “Recall the moment of the pinch.”

“Notice the surge of the needle on the E-Meter dial.”

“Acknowledge the person and ask for the moment to be recalled again.

“Each time the person recalls the pinch, you will see the needle react. But it will become less and less as the charge of the incident is as-ised, and with the mass blowing off, you will see that the blockage to the carrier wave is reduced and the tone arm moves down.

“The reads you see on your E-Meter dial in the movement of the needle are visual manifestations of the shifts of masses, ridges and pictures in the mind of the preclear or actual mental energy which is generated or discharged by the preclear.”

———————————————-

http://e-meter-star.com/books.files/Understanding_the_E_Meter.pdf

marildi | April 23, 2013 at 3:24 am | Reply

p.s. It has lots of pictures, which really help make the principles clear.

It is very likely that the theory articulated in the linked edition of Understanding the E-Meter -

http://e-meter-star.com/books.files/Understanding_the_E_Meter.pdf

-- is without merit. As I recall, later editions of the book were edited to delete or substantially change the passage I'm about to quote. The reason will be obvious.

On page 35 of the book Understanding the E-Meter it states:

"In Scientology it has been discovered that mental energy is simply a finer, higher level physical energy. The test of this is conclusive in that a thetan "mocking up" (creating) mental image pictures and thrusting them into the body can increase the body mass and by casting them away again can decrease the body mass. This test has actually been made and an increase of as much as thirty pounds, actually measured on scales, has been added to, and subtracted from, a body by creating "mental energy". Energy is energy. Matter is condensed energy."

To avoid any possible ambiguity or uncertainty, the text is accompanied by three pictures of a man on a scale where the weight goes down from 180 to 150. We are not talking about someone benefiting from auditing, going on a plan of diet and exercise, and losing weight.

I"m sorry, but this is nonsense on stilts. If it is not, I really want to see an "actual test" of this.

One might accept "mental mass" as a metaphor, or a "workable truth," but to make a representation that such experiment has "actually been made" can lead one only to say, "Prove it."

 

[Rene Descartes]

Right about now would probably be a good time for the Hubbard's definition of the kilometer light years or whatever, something or other, about the power of a thetan

Oh and maybe also that piece about a person losing lots of weight in an auditing session.

Mental Mass.

Scientists can determine the mass of the tiniest particles but the mass of a mental mass has eluded them all these years.

Rd00

 

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263875

marildi | April 24, 2013 at 11:36 am | Reply

CommunicatorIC, I have wondered about the paragraph you quoted too as it does seem extreme. But when you then state the generalization that “the theory of Understanding the E-meter is incorrect”, based on that one paragraph, that is quite an over-generalization. The book otherwise is excellent in describing basic principles, including the qualities and abilities of a thetan (spiritual being) and how the mind works. Whether or not “up to 30 pounds” of mental mass can be demonstrated, there is no doubt that the mind does contain mass, and this is objectively demonstrated by the e-meter – which is also well described by the book as to exactly how it works to indicate the presence of mass and the discharge of it in auditing.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I would never use the pinch test on the first date.

But if you pinch her on the second date and she responds favorably, your needle will probably rise before the nights over.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[SpecialFrog]

Scientologists: being persuaded by non sequiturs since 1950.

The idea that the meter "objectively demonstrates" that thoughts have mass is just plain silly.

 

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263900

CommunicatorIC | April 24, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Reply

Marildia, A number of points, if I may.

First, I didn’t say, “the theory of Understanding the E-meter is incorrect.” I instead said:

“It is VERY LIKELY that the theory articulated in the linked edition of Understanding the E-Meter -
http://e-meter-star.com/books.files/Understanding_the_E_Meter.pdf

– is without merit.”

Secondly, you statement –

“there is NO DOUBT that the mind does contain mass, and this is objectively demonstrated by the e-meter – which is also well described by the book as to exactly how it works to indicate the presence of mass and the discharge of it in auditing.”

– is without merit, particularly given Scientology assumption that mind =/= brain. Your statement also falls into the trap of assuming the conclusion it wishes to prove. If we define and clear the word “mass” as it is commonly understood by both physicists and common people using any regular dictionary — i.e., as something that in a gravitational field (such as on earth) has weight — there is NO evidence that the “mind” (as opposed to brain) has mass, or that E-Meter or needle phenomena are caused or accompanied by a change in “mass” — which should show up on a scale as a change in weight. Where is the EVIDENCE that needle phenomena are caused or accompanied by a change in mass, and thus a change in weight in ANY AMOUNT? Where is the experiment showing that needle phenomena are caused or accompanied by a change in mass, and thus a change in weight in ANY AMOUNT?

As I said in my original comment on this,. I could have accepted “mental mass” as a metaphor. I guess one could try to get away with defining the “mass” in “mental mass” in a way different than that commonly understood (i.e., as having weight in a gravitational field). But when one goes out of their way to assert that the “mass” in “mental mass” DOES have weight “on a scale,” then one can reasonably be asked to provide evidence of such weight “on a scale,” and not merely assume it, or assume that because the needle moves there MUST be a change in mass (and weight), and that no other explanation is possible.

As for me overgeneralizing, I’ve tried to follow the Second Rule of Happiness and, indeed, be respectful about this, but it probably time that I attempt to impinge a bit more. When I read a book that makes a statement to the effect that the 30 pound test “has actually been made” — note the use of the past tense — I can only conclude that the person who authored the passage was lying or, at best (worst?), incompetent. A test with such a result simply did not occur. A test with one tenth the result (i.e., 3 pounds) simply did not occur. Then why should I trust anything the author has to say on any “scientific” subject? Please note that I refer to “author” because I’m open to the possibility that, despite what it say in the copyright notice, Ron was not the author.

 

[Orglodyte]

LRH himself said the experiment had been done, in one of the basic books. This is what got me out of Scientology. I was already groaning under the weight of my cognitive dissonance, and was rereading the books from the 50's in hope of some insights, when I ran across this claim. I had a feeling of great quiet, as though time had stopped, and then the following thought crossed in front of my vision like a banner being towed by a biplane: "Hubbard is lying!"

Over almost two decades, I had built a house of cards, a gigantic structure of justifications to somehow reconcile the claims of Scientology with my direct experience. This illegal but irresistible thought pulled a bottom card out of the structure, and the whole thing fell down, slowly, over a couple of sleepless days and nights. I went all the way from in to fully out in about 36 uninterrupted hours.

At the end, I felt at least 30 pounds lighter! Thank you, Ron!

 

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263912

marildi | April 24, 2013 at 10:48 pm |

CommunicatorIC, thanks for your response, and I do appreciate your respectfulness and intention to be fair minded.

My objection was actually to the part of your sentence referring in general to “THE THEORY articulated in the linked edition of Understanding the E-meter”, which wording does not limit what you’re talking about to the one specific paragraph but rather communicates the theory in the whole book. So even adding “very likely” makes no difference as regards the generality – although to be fair, I should have noted the “very likely” part too, even though it is a separate point.

On the second part of your post, I personally have heard of people who have come out of session with their clothes fitting noticeably looser than before session. And one person, by report, noticed such a difference that she went and weighed herself and was 15 pounds lighter. This is just anecdotal, of course, but it makes me wonder what data would turn up if a survey on this subject were made.

In reply to the rest of your post, I’ll quote from the book itself.

“For the meter to be read, the tiny flow of electrical energy through the preclear has to remain constant. When this tiny flow is reduced due to increased resistance, the needle of the E-Meter movement moves off the dial to the left. This happens because the preclear pulls in mass. This is actual mental mass (condensed energy), and this mass acts as a resistance to the flow of electrical energy from the E-Meter. The tiny carrier wave becomes partially blocked.

[…]

“The tone arm simply regulates how much of the battery’s pressure or voltage is required to push the carrier wave through the preclear. The required pressure or voltage is determined by the amount of mental mass or resistance present in the preclear.

[…]

“An electrical field exists at a distance from, or within, the body of the preclear. The tiny electrical flow from the E-Meter, acting as a carrier wave, which is passed through the body of the preclear, is influenced by electrical shifts and disturbances which occur in this ‘field’.

“The preclear is also surrounded by such things as masses, pictures and ridges and an entire record of the past which we call a time track.

“What are these pictures composed of? It has been established that this mental energy, such as is contained in a picture, and the energy of Earth or of the electric light company, are different only in wave length. Mental energy is simply a finer, higher level physical energy.”

http://e-meter-star.com/books.files/Understanding_the_E_Meter.pdf

 

[SpecialFrog]

The book says it so it must be true.
No further evidence needed.

 

[Abletu]

excuse... me...

An e-meter does not read mass nor change of mass nor anything to do with mass.

It measures the change of resistance from a set point, in ohms.

The tone arm measures where the resistance of the body is, like any ohm meter.

The body's resistance changes micro-mirco ohms from that set point....

when the body stress changes.... "this would be your mental & physical body comfort level to that subject."

this change is in micro-mirco ohms from the tone-arm "ohm meter" set point and this is amplified and the amplified electrical current "changes" ... affect needle movement.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The body's resistance changes micro-mirco ohms from that set point....

What's this "micro-micro" factor? TA 2.0 = 5000 ohms. TA 3.0 = 12,500 ohms. I forget the other calibrations, but it goes up many tens of thousands of ohms. The body's resistance can change from tens of thousands of ohms to 5000 ohms or so in a second or two in a session sometimes.

"Micro-micro" doesn't convey this too well.

Paul

 

[guanoloco]

I would never use the pinch test on the first date.

But if you pinch her on the second date and she responds favorably, your needle will probably rise before the nights over.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Yeah, well let's just hope your needle doesn't get dirty after the LFBD.

 

[Abletu]

What's this "micro-micro" factor? TA 2.0 = 5000 ohms. TA 3.0 = 12,500 ohms. I forget the other calibrations, but it goes up many tens of thousands of ohms. The body's resistance can change from tens of thousands of ohms to 5000 ohms or so in a second or two in a session sometimes.

"Micro-micro" doesn't convey this too well.

Paul

The needle is moved by current.

The measure of the needle movement is change from the tone arm set point.

The needle movement itself is registering the difference between the tone arm set point and the micro change in body's actual resistance.

tone arm resistance setting say is 7,000 ohms. the tone arm is not move once the body's resistance is on the dial.

The body's resistance now changes to 7,000.05 ohms, the change of .05 ohms is amplified and moves the needle, this is a small rise or tic on the dial depending on the sensitivity setting

IF the body's resistance changes too much to say 14,000 ohms, the tone arm needs to be moved until the body's resistance is registered on the dial. this is tone arm action.

Now if the body's resistance changes to 14,010. the 10 ohms is amplified and causes the needle to move from the set point established by the tone arm, this is a arise on the dial.

a fall could be 14,000 to 13,500 or a tone arm movement... depending on sensitivity setting.

 

[Abletu]

LRH himself said the experiment had been done, in one of the basic books. This is what got me out of Scientology. I was already groaning under the weight of my cognitive dissonance, and was rereading the books from the 50's in hope of some insights, when I ran across this claim. I had a feeling of great quiet, as though time had stopped, and then the following thought crossed in front of my vision like a banner being towed by a biplane: "Hubbard is lying!"

Over almost two decades, I had built a house of cards, a gigantic structure of justifications to somehow reconcile the claims of Scientology with my direct experience. This illegal but irresistible thought pulled a bottom card out of the structure, and the whole thing fell down, slowly, over a couple of sleepless days and nights. I went all the way from in to fully out in about 36 uninterrupted hours.

At the end, I felt at least 30 pounds lighter! Thank you, Ron!

well done, I believed he was on the same page, and I bought C of S auditing, it took 35 years for me

 

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263991

CommunicatorIC | April 25, 2013 at 11:28 pm | Reply

This is in response to marildi’s post above regarding the e-meter and mental mass at:
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-263912

I think we exhausted the software’s ability to nest responses.

Two points. First, I simply don’t believe it, BUT I am willing to be persuaded otherwise by EVIDENCE after a controlled experiment. I would not, however, accept survey results for something like this. It is a matter of look, don’t listen. What matters is not what people say, but what IS. Thus, I would accept the experiment outlined in the book. That is, somebody is on a scale, undergoes auditing, does he gain or lose weight? Or somebody is weighed, immediately undergoes an auditing session, is thereafter immediately weighed using the same scale, did he gain or lose weight?

Secondly, you quoting the book in support of the theory articulated in the book is not persuasive. It is circular reasoning,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

AND/OR an argument from authority,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I don’t have the references handy, but I clearly recall Ron cautioning against arguments from authority in his early books, including Dianetics and Science of Survival. (I’m sure the point was also made in HCOBs and HCOPLs) The point is that one cannot say that an empirical, testable, falsifiable statement about “real world” — external reality — such as someone gaining or losing weight — is true simply and only because of words written is a book, or a THEORY articulated in a book says it is. One can’t prove a theory is empirically valid simply by citing or reiterating the theory. A controlled experiment is required.

For word clearing: Falsifiability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

marildi| April 26, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Reply

CommunicatorIC, you wrote: “…I simply don’t believe it, BUT I am willing to be persuaded otherwise by EVIDENCE after a controlled experiment. I would not, however, accept survey results for something like this.”

That is a fair statement but I also want to point out that I only said a survey would be interesting. And, yes, this is a testable/falsifiable point and a controlled experiment could be done, which in a way might be worth doing. But even if it turned out that such large amounts of weight change were not found to occur, that would be beside the significant point – which is that the e-meter does measure mental mass even though such mass may only be in very small quantities.

The e-meter is basically a potentiometer, which is a valid scientific instrument that measures the change in electrical resistance that any change in mass brings about. Exactly how a potentiometer works, and specifically the e-meter as a potentiometer, is also described in the book Understanding the E-meter.

In an earlier comment, I quoted an excerpt describing the pinch test, which is a simple proof of change in resistance (in other words, change in amount of mass) that occurs in relation to thoughts, and my understanding is that this test has been done successfully many, many times. Even more significant is the fact that there have been countless sessions where the changes that occur in the resistance readings on the e-meter do indeed indicate changes of mass occurring for the pc.

Look back over this exchange between us and you’ll see that it started because I had recommended a book about the e-meter to another poster who was interested in it and had questions. You then made a statement that inadvertently came across as discrediting the whole book, although you were only referring to the data in that one paragraph (as regards large weight/mass changes). I didn’t think it was okay to let that go by as it misrepresented the book as a whole and also could have discouraged the other poster from reading it. However, I really wasn’t interested in discussing the e-meter in a lot of detail, but rather to just give a reference that does so and let the person decide for himself. Thanks for the civil discussion anyway.

Btw, as regards the “software’s ability to nest responses”, when there is no longer a “reply” button on a comment you want to reply to, what you can do is to click on the reply button on the e-mail notification of that comment. That will bring up a new tab or window that gives you a box labeled “Leave a reply to [name of poster on whose comment you hit the reply button]”After you write your reply and push the “post comment” button, your post will appear under that particular comment you are replying to. An alternative to method is to simply go to the nearest post (above the post you want to reply to) which does have a reply button. That method isn’t as good as the email notification doesn’t show correctly which post the reply is actually in reply to.

Cheers, marildi

 

[SpecialFrog]

Still no evidence for the claim that a change in resistance means a change in mass? I'm shocked.

 

[CommunicatorIC]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/the-story-of-scientology-prophesied/#comment-264096

CommunicatorIC | April 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm | Reply

Now we get down to the crucial issue. The crux of the matter. You state:

“The e-meter is basically a potentiometer, which is a valid scientific instrument that measures the change in electrical resistance that any change in mass brings about.”

You assume that a change in resistance can be caused ONLY by a change in mass, and that therefore a change in resistance NECESSARILY means there has been a change in mass. That is not correct.

Just because a change in mass could result in a change in resistance doesn’t mean that it is the ONLY thing that could cause a change in resistance.

It is important not to confuse something which is SUFFICIENT to cause a particular result with something that is NECESSARY to cause that same result.

As someone who has been trained, you know this. The PC squeezes the cans, the needle reacts. The PC loosens his hands, the needle reacts. The PC inhales, the needle reacts. The PC exhales, the needle reacts. The PC holds his breath, the needle reacts. The PC’s hands sweat, the needle reacts. The PC’s hands become dry, the needle reacts.

Add to this material that is outside the text and the training of most Auditors — i.e., the fact that the PC’s body generates its own electric current for, e.g., the heart (as measured by an EKG or ECG) and brain waves (neural oscillation as measured by electroencephalography — EEG). MANY things can affect this current — and thus the needle. A change in mass, while potentially one of them, is not the only one by far.

Nobody thinks, and there is no evidence, that an EKG or ECG varies because the heart is “changing mass.”

Nobody thinks, and there is no evidence, that an EEG varies because the brain — or the “mind” — is changing mass. An EEG demonstrably varies with one’s thoughts. Show somebody a picture of their favorite food, the EEG varies. Show the person a picture of a horrific accident, the EEG varies. No change in mass necessary.

The body is a highly complex bio-electrical system. The current, resistance and voltage measured at different points is always varying — unless one is body dead.

Again, one can’t persuasively support an empirical theory simply by reiterating the theory, or citing the text. That is circular reasoning.

Finally, I have to turn to the issue of scientific credibility. Whoever wrote that the 30 pound experiment has “actually been made” was either lying or unknowingly spouting nonsense. Why, then, should I believe a word that person has to say about science or a scientific result? Did not the person ruin his own scientific credibility? Did not the person effectively Dead Agent himself?

 

[Dulloldfart]

The needle is moved by current.

The measure of the needle movement is change from the tone arm set point.

The needle movement itself is registering the difference between the tone arm set point and the micro change in body's actual resistance.

tone arm resistance setting say is 7,000 ohms. the tone arm is not move once the body's resistance is on the dial.

The body's resistance now changes to 7,000.05 ohms, the change of .05 ohms is amplified and moves the needle, this is a small rise or tic on the dial depending on the sensitivity setting

IF the body's resistance changes too much to say 14,000 ohms, the tone arm needs to be moved until the body's resistance is registered on the dial. this is tone arm action.

Now if the body's resistance changes to 14,010. the 10 ohms is amplified and causes the needle to move from the set point established by the tone arm, this is a arise on the dial.

a fall could be 14,000 to 13,500 or a tone arm movement... depending on sensitivity setting.

Hmmm. Do you have a meter handy? I've done this experiment several times, but it was years ago and I don't have the actual figures to hand. Nor do I have a meter handy.

Set it up, put the sensitivity at 5 or 8 maybe, just an average session sensitivity for an "average pc." This is easy to do at TA 2.0 because of the built-in resistor across the socket, and relatively easy to do at TA 3.0 if you have a reference resistor set. Easy at other resistances if you have a bigger set of resistors one way or another.

See how much the TA changes when the needle goes from pin to pin. I phrased that sloppily as you can watch the needle waggle from pin to pin without changing the TA knob. What I mean is, put the needle on one pin and adjust the TA knob to move the needle over to the other pin. Do this with a fixed resistance across the leads. Note down the figure. Try this at different sensitivities.

I first did this with a Mark V around 1982. I was amazed to find that the 1-32 sensitivity knob changed the sensitivity by a factor of about 11. With the 3-position sensitivity booster, two of the settings gave exactly the same result, and the third boosted the sensitivity a bit, but I don't recall by how much. it certainly didn't match the figures on the dial. Now, in reality, it doesn't really matter, unless you think that sens 8 is twice sens 4 or something silly like that.

But I digress. I think you'll find that in a normal session, with a relatively loose needle, a common two-inch movement across the dial is far closer to several hundred up to thousands of ohms rather than tenths or hundredths of an ohm.

-----

I'm not an electrical engineer. The above has been my think on the subject for years. The experiment is easy enough to replicate, but my interpretation of the experimental results could be wrong.

Paul

 

[Abletu]

Hmmm. Do you have a meter handy? I've done this experiment several times, but it was years ago and I don't have the actual figures to hand. Nor do I have a meter handy.

Set it up, put the sensitivity at 5 or 8 maybe, just an average session sensitivity for an "average pc." This is easy to do at TA 2.0 because of the built-in resistor across the socket, and relatively easy to do at TA 3.0 if you have a reference resistor set. Easy at other resistances if you have a bigger set of resistors one way or another.

See how much the TA changes when the needle goes from pin to pin. I phrased that sloppily as you can watch the needle waggle from pin to pin without changing the TA knob. What I mean is, put the needle on one pin and adjust the TA knob to move the needle over to the other pin. Do this with a fixed resistance across the leads. Note down the figure. Try this at different sensitivities.

I first did this with a Mark V around 1982. I was amazed to find that the 1-32 sensitivity knob changed the sensitivity by a factor of about 11. With the 3-position sensitivity booster, two of the settings gave exactly the same result, and the third boosted the sensitivity a bit, but I don't recall by how much. it certainly didn't match the figures on the dial. Now, in reality, it doesn't really matter, unless you think that sens 8 is twice sens 4 or something silly like that.

But I digress. I think you'll find that in a normal session, with a relatively loose needle, a common two-inch movement across the dial is far closer to several hundred up to thousands of ohms rather than tenths or hundredths of an ohm.

-----

I'm not an electrical engineer. The above has been my think on the subject for years. The experiment is easy enough to replicate, but my interpretation of the experimental results could be wrong.

Paul

My mark V is dead until I get repairs, it died last year, I refuse to trust C of S, I am sure not to get it back, I'm declared SP.

What I base the judgement on is how I ranged in the meter for each PC. The reads were different sizes, I have to accept the PC was squeezing the cans similarly each time.

I would love to validate what you have suggested, it is easy to do, and I have the equipment to do just that. To emulated each and every read. I wish I had thought of doing just that. I could then validate how much sensitivity change actually takes place, and/or if it is all hype.

The change is not mass, it is the change in how much current can actually pass through the body, a change of resistance indicates a change in electrolytic content of the body, or the chemical composition change from high resistance to lower resistance combinations or the reverse from lower to higher.

Increasing and/or decreasing the number of free electrons or holes, copper has less than silver, insulators have very little to almost none.

Thus electrical flow is dampened, and/or increased by the level of mental, emotional, spiritual and/or physical stress the body experiences, changing the electrical flow or electrolytic combinations within the body. (tone level, beingness level, in-sync level, concern level and etc)

Thus it is possible for each individual to some degree cause electronic equipment, microwaves, radio waves and etc to effect mental, emotional, physical health. You do have a large range of control as to what will and will not effect you.

this is what I referred to as states of beingness, floating needle/floating TA is experiencing degrees of beingness itself.

Note -- the needle does move, a gentle smooth up and down motion, electrolytic content, resistance is changing without any stress. Indicating pure spiritual stressless universe contact with the physical body universe. Also referred to throughout the ages as doing without doing.