AS IF. . .

[Student of Trinity]

It's one thing to say that children's spirits are as immortal as anyone's, regardless of their bodies. It's another thing to say that first thing, as if it had the practical implication that children should shoulder adult responsibilities.

My impression is that Scientology does that second thing.

 

[guanoloco]

It's one thing to say that children's spirits are as immortal as anyone's, regardless of their bodies. It's another thing to say that first thing, as if it had the practical implication that children should shoulder adult responsibilities.

My impression is that Scientology does that second thing.

It does. The whole idea of one thetan being older than another is wog aberration and there's no case on post, blah, blah, blah.

 

[MissWog]

It does. The whole idea of one thetan being older than another is wog aberration and there's no case on post, blah, blah, blah.

And children were expected to "remember" how to do things bc they had lived before. And when you take such a stance on childhood you will treat children in a way they should not be treated. Just like when you assume you will live again you are more inclined not to value this life. Not all Scientologists do this I am sure, but the ones that do are the real concern..look at that girl who just killed herself and her mother a few days later told Tony she was at peace with her choice and supported her decision, ummm at peace and supported her suicide?! WTF!!?? Just my unsubstantiated hunch but I bet this girl was treated as an old immortal Thetan that pulled in what ailed her.

Claire,
I totally get what you are saying, but we need to take the rosé colored glasses off and see how the theory is actually put into practice. But I am pretty darn sure we already agree with each other on that though While I don't believe the theory myself I have no problem with it until we see how it is applied and used to justify abuses, for me just even one is one too many.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

I love the name Scientology. It seems as if it's scientific.

I like Isaac Azimov's* 2 word review of Dianetics: Utter Gibberish. It's as if it's not Scientific.

I love the Oxford Capacity Test, so named as if it were associated with Oxford University.

I love how Ron is quoted as source as if Scientology didn't need to cloak itself in deception like the actual authority of, say, Oxford University for example.

I love the official biography of LRH per the church as if it were possible for a person to live 900 years.

I love the way that Scientology tried to stop the publishing of Bare Faced Messiah as if it were more convincing than the official biography**.

I love the new releases to 'clean up the tech' and 'return to source' as if the tech actually worked in the first place.

I love the way that David Miscavige is too afraid to go on the stand as if he had a reputation to damage in the first place.

I love the way Kelly Preston and John Travolta stay together as if John isnt...

I love the land-based Sea organization named as if a land based organization can credibly refer to itself in nautical terms.

I love seeing Tommy Davis smile in an interview as if he is not on the RPF 10 seconds after he leaves the studio.

I love that intimidating photo of David Miscavige where he appears strong and forceful as if he's not a diminutive, whining alcoholic who hides behind his OSA goons and a phalanx of lawyers.

I love the way Tom Cruise stands by Scientology as if it has helped his career.

I love the way Scientology tries its hardest to get good press as if anyone in the media doesn't know who they are by know and is scared of them.

I love the way the term 'at cause' is used by Scientologists as if they don't run screaming at the first sign of a suppressive helicopter.

I love the way Scientologists shell out for the Super Power building as if any one of them is going to walk out of there with super powers+.

I love the way Will Smith used to run a Scientology school as if he weren't himself a Scientologist.

I love the way Tavis Smiley said almost nothing to Will Smith in that interview as if he was scared Will might be clinically insane.

I love the way Tom Cruise has auditions for a wife as if it's a supporting role in a sitcom where he plays a straight family man who is metally balanced.

I love the way Tom Cruise buys a film studio as if no one will hire him since the Spielberg debacle.

I love the way Kirstie Alley gets on twitter and has the most toxic of rants as if she were trying to destroy Scientology from the inside.

* Isaac Azimov was, in contrast to Ron Hubbard, both a scientist and a good science fiction writer.
** Bare Faced Messiah, in contrast with the official biography of Hubbard, is consistent with verifiable evidence, common sense and reason.
+ It has been speculated on that upon visiting the Super Powers building, the ridiculous nature of what they are doing make cause some of the victims of Scientology to enhance their 'common sense' perceptic and run screaming from the cult.

well...

i should say we now know which one was and is as if a race car

 

[Commander Birdsong]

..

I love the way Scientologists throw extravagant events where they endlessly congratulate themselves to the point of ecstatic standing ovations, as if they weren't just a handful of dorky cult members, creepily grinning as they imagine themselves saving the world.

rully, rully, rully good thread HH...

 

[Claire Swazey]

It's one thing to say that children's spirits are as immortal as anyone's, regardless of their bodies. It's another thing to say that first thing, as if it had the practical implication that children should shoulder adult responsibilities.

My impression is that Scientology does that second thing.

Yes, CofS does that second thing, as I mentioned. However, to say that the concept itself "children are thetans in small bodies" is an abusive statement is something with which i would disagree.

 

[Claire Swazey]

It does. The whole idea of one thetan being older than another is wog aberration and there's no case on post, blah, blah, blah.

That's why I don't have a lot of patience with new agers who say "oh, she's an old soul."

I think all spirits and immortal and eternal. I think Spirit - with a capital S- always existed. I don't think some souls are older or newer than others.

I don't think emotional maturity or wisdom or lack of either is an indication of how old a "soul" is.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Yes, CofS does that second thing, as I mentioned. However, to say that the concept itself "children are thetans in small bodies" is an abusive statement is something with which i would disagree.

thank you claire...

i've been wanting to say exactly that for quite some time and am always grateful when any poster says something for me which so very many posters often do

 

[Claire Swazey]

And children were expected to "remember" how to do things bc they had lived before. And when you take such a stance on childhood you will treat children in a way they should not be treated. Just like when you assume you will live again you are more inclined not to value this life. Not all Scientologists do this I am sure, but the ones that do are the real concern..look at that girl who just killed herself and her mother a few days later told Tony she was at peace with her choice and supported her decision, ummm at peace and supported her suicide?! WTF!!?? Just my unsubstantiated hunch but I bet this girl was treated as an old immortal Thetan that pulled in what ailed her.

Claire,
I totally get what you are saying, but we need to take the rosé colored glasses off and see how the theory is actually put into practice. But I am pretty darn sure we already agree with each other on that though While I don't believe the theory myself I have no problem with it until we see how it is applied and used to justify abuses, for me just even one is one too many.

I don't think anyone here- including myself- has rose colored glasses on. With all I've studied in Scn and in other things, I ended up thinking about the concept and developing some opinions on it that I personally feel make sense. As I mentioned already, what CofS - and Hubbard himself- does and has done with the concept is another thing. And I think that their deeds- and Hubbard's deeds- are based on summary disregard for the feelings, needs, wants, desires and welfare of other human beings as well as rank hypocrisy.

They're always shitty to their members and to anyone else they encounter. That's not based on any spiritual notions or theories. It's based on their underlying premise and belief set that the organization is all that matters. They do this shit cuz they're culties. Not because they think spirits are eternal and that past lives are true.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Button, button, who's got the button?

There's a term "Have a button on _____"- which I feel ok about using because I've heard of people who weren't ever even in Scn use it, though they usually call it a "Hot button". (I'm explaining myself because I don't believe in lobbing Scientologese at people.)

So, with that in mind, I will say that I've noticed that most people have a button on children. I am not referring to the love people have for their children or other children for whom they are responsible or with whom they are related or acquainted or their understanding that children are our future and should be loved and protected. All those things are quite true and important! But in addition to that, people tend to have a button on the subject of children. They tend to react about them. Want to discredit someone? Accuse them of messing with kids. In our society, when those accusations occur, people will tend to believe and punish first, ask for proof later. I also remember someone talking about being in an emergency services volunteer type job and was talking about going to Oklahoma City in the wake of the bombing. He was kind of bragging about how he couldn't do that cuz if he found a child's shoe or toy in the rubble, he'd go all to pieces cuz he couldn't handle anything happening to kids. But he was bringing the whole thing up, was the thing.

I have noticed that most skeptics and critics and exes discussing Scn on fora tend to get really pissed off about this thetans in small bodies concept. I remember a thread about some other thing Hub said about kids (and believe me, I think Hub was absolutely bloody awful with kids and didn't have a leg to stand on from which to make pronouncements about caring for kids) and, me being me, always marching to the beat of a different drummer, I said what I thought and it didn't happen to be all that similar to what others on the thread thought. Ended up being accused of, oh, god knows what. It was really emotional for some of the forum regulars.

I am well aware that Scn has some concepts in it that are deeply flawed and even abusive. I don't happen to think that the cultic crap is all due to people misapplying Scn. There're plenty of instances where the problems happened because Scn itself was applied to the letter.

However, when we're discussing the theory that a child is a thetan in a small body, I personally think that's all it is. A spirit is a spirit. Believe me, there's absolutely no end of human rights abuses against children and people of all ages in CofS even notwithstanding that opinion of mine.

 

[Rmack]

And children were expected to "remember" how to do things bc they had lived before. And when you take such a stance on childhood you will treat children in a way they should not be treated. Just like when you assume you will live again you are more inclined not to value this life. Not all Scientologists do this I am sure, but the ones that do are the real concern..look at that girl who just killed herself and her mother a few days later told Tony she was at peace with her choice and supported her decision, ummm at peace and supported her suicide?! WTF!!?? Just my unsubstantiated hunch but I bet this girl was treated as an old immortal Thetan that pulled in what ailed her.

And with that mixed in with the 'greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics' abomination, which concludes that anything done to further the cult's interests is technically 'ethical', you have a seriously spiritually toxic mix dancing around in your 'leetle grey cells'.

 

[l whip]

I would argue that Scn tech is a misapplication in itself. What people are made of is not just a set of buttons to push. That is an oversimplification of the personality.

 

[Rmack]

It's one thing to say that children's spirits are as immortal as anyone's, regardless of their bodies. It's another thing to say that first thing, as if it had the practical implication that children should shoulder adult responsibilities.

My impression is that Scientology does that second thing.

Yeah, that impression is correct. At least it was back in my day, and all signs point to it being worse now.

Not only was not being old enough not a valid excuse, nothing was a valid excuse. 'No case on post' was the ideal. Not been hatted by anyone, just a vague description in some rambling 'reference'? Too fucking bad! Make it go right! You've been here before, as a loyal officer, so you already know what to do. Wait...you wouldn't be a DIS loyal officer, would you?

See how insidious the control can be? If you don't go along, well, you must be 'counter-intentioned', which will not be good for your precarious career in mankind's only hope.

 

[Gib]

Yeah, that impression is correct. At least it was back in my day, and all signs point to it being worse now.

Not only was not being old enough not a valid excuse, nothing was a valid excuse. 'No case on post' was the ideal. Not been hatted by anyone, just a vague description in some rambling 'reference'? Too fucking bad! Make it go right! You've been here before, as a loyal officer, so you already know what to do. Wait...you wouldn't be a DIS loyal officer, would you?

See how insidious the control can be? If you don't go along, well, you must be 'counter-intentioned', which will not be good for your precarious career in mankind's only hope.

and it's all dependent on "stats". While the cheese is applied religious philosophy, getting case gain, going clear, going OT, but the very bottom line is it's all stats. Quite clever of hubbard.

 

[Anonycat]

I would argue that Scn tech is a misapplication in itself. What people are made of is not just a set of buttons to push. That is an oversimplification of the personality.

And it's not fair to call it 'tech', as nothing technical or scientific or scholarly is related.

 

[Rmack]

and it's all dependent on "stats". While the cheese is applied religious philosophy, getting case gain, going clear, going OT, but the very bottom line is it's all stats. Quite clever of hubbard.

Oh, yeah! Pavlovianly simple stat tracking assures that everyone will be 'down-stat' sooner or later, allowing punishment to be linked directly to 'production', which I think the top stat of was really 'money to Me' and now to whoever is at the top of the flow. A self-replicating money-producing philosophical machine.

If I was on the examining board, I'd pass Laffy on to the next grade......

 

[Gib]

Oh, yeah! Pavlovianly simple stat tracking assures that everyone will be 'down-stat' sooner or later, allowing punishment to be linked directly to 'production', which I think the top stat of was really 'money to Me' and now to whoever is at the top of the flow. A self-replicating money-producing philosophical machine.

If I was on the examining board, I'd pass Laffy on to the next grade......

that's why I've said several times "Hubbard said the 9th dynamic was money",

but that statemnet by him is very hard to find and I believe deleted from the lectures.

 

[MissWog]

And with that mixed in with the 'greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics' abomination, which concludes that anything done to further the cult's interests is technically 'ethical', you have a seriously spiritually toxic mix dancing around in your 'leetle grey cells'.

Oh oh oh! What is that in reference too???

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

that's why I've said several times "Hubbard said the 9th dynamic was money",

but that statemnet by him is very hard to find and I believe deleted from the lectures.

If I recall correctly, that definition was in one of those red tech dictionaries in the late 70's. Should be easy to check if someone has some older versions. It is likely to have the "reference" from which that came.

 

[Type4_PTS]

that's why I've said several times "Hubbard said the 9th dynamic was money",

but that statemnet by him is very hard to find and I believe deleted from the lectures.

I also recall a reference about the 9th dynamic being money. While I can't find the original reference I was looking for here is a reference where he does acknowledge it. (Listen to the sentence from the 52 second mark of this video)

[video=youtube;aJZulc9hiYM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJZulc9hiYM[/video]