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Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org & Staff (USA)

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
I have no idea what's going to happen. I am confident they will try to avoid it.

The reason I started this thread is because I don't know what will happen, and I was hoping to start a discussion about it with knowledgeable, informed, interested people who care about this topic and might have intelligent contributions to make.

Also, I was hoping for more eyeballs and eventually a lawyer to comment on relevant bits of employment law and any exemptions that might apply.

Finally, I was hoping to point out to everyone that the law also has an individual mandate whose exemption doesn't appear to be available to Scientologists.

Unless they're below the poverty line and can get on Medicare, assuming the church has not covered them, they will still have to buy their own insurance.

AFAIK, Sea Org workers are not currently on Medicare. Maybe someone here can comment on that. My understanding is that recently, a Sea Org worker named D. Kevitt was in an accident that left him in an ICU, and that he had no insurance and was not on Medicaid.

I was in the Sea Org at Flag 1987-1988, and had an ordeal involving medical bills, which I documented on OCMB some time ago. That thread: My ordeal on Flag medical and OSA lines.

At that time there was no medical insurance, and afaik, that has not changed. This letter from the Legal Officer at Flag may be helpful.

ltr-1989-06april-1.jpg


ltr-1989-06april-2.jpg
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Failboat, I am not sure if this is related and I guess you can ignore it if you want, but when Scn got its tax exempt status, they had the ministers fill out a form giving us tax exemption. I still have the form. It says that I am exempt from self-employment tax. This was signed and appoved by an IRS rep.

(but the only people who could do this were those who were ordained ministers of the church).

That was/is how they view the ministers...

Does the form have a form number or code in the top corner? That would help me figure out what it is.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Does the form have a form number or code in the top corner? That would help me figure out what it is.

It is IRS Form # 4361 Application for Exemption from Self-Employment Tax for use by Ministers, Members of Religious Orders and Christian Science Practitioners. Sea Org members filed as ordained ministers (there are several options to check if you look at the form).

My husband is an accountant and he says that many ministers work as contracted workers, using 1099 instead of W4.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
That doc I quoted earlier from 1992 has some seriously outdated information in it (like weekly salaries). Here's the latest material I could find on FLSA exemptions from a number of sources, including one that's been posted in this thread. Another group, entitled to a "ministerial exemption," is outlined by the docs below. Note that the group is excluded from the definition of "employee" under the FLSA only, but if a member of that group fails to meet the definition of "volunteer" by receiving compensation or benefits, then s/he would still be considered an "employee," just not one protected by FLSA.

My interpretation is that there exists a class of ministerial employees ("clergy") that are not protected by FLSA, but who also cannot be classed under "volunteer" status, due to the reasons stated earlier in this thread as well as the following reasons. IANAL, YMMV. Receiving benefits like lodging, food, transportation, medical care, and/or money can establish an employer-employee relationship. If the employer is the primary beneficiary of labor, then that may also establish an employer-employee relationship.

Why is it important? For the employer mandate of course. Even ministerial employees exempt from FLSA minimum wage requirements should count toward a limit of 50 full-timers.

http://adamsnonprofitlaw.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/minimum-wage-requirements-as-they-apply-to-churches/

Minimum Wage Requirements as they Apply to Churches
Possible Exemptions for Clergy & Other Religious Workers
Even if an organization’s employees are determined to be engaging in interstate commerce, some of its employees may yet be exempt from FLSA coverage. One exception is found in the language of the FLSA which excludes “administrative, executive, and professional employees.” The Dept. of Labor explains that this generally includes those that would otherwise be covered by the FLSA but earn at least $455 a week on a salaried basis. Because this category is already above the minimum wage, the only noticeable difference from being covered under the Act is the lack of required overtime pay.

The 4th Circuit Court has also recognized a “ministerial exemption” to the FLSA, first argued in Shenandoah Baptist Church[iv] and discussed more fully in the 2004 case of Shaliehsabou v. Hebrew Home of Greater Wash., Inc.[v] The exemption can exclude a member of the clergy from being an “employee” within the FLSA meaning. The notion of this exemption derived from a debate on the floor of Congress that was later delineated in some guidelines issued by the Dept. of Labor’s Wage and House Administrator.[vi] The relevant portion of those guidelines provides:
“Persons such as nuns, monks, priests, lay brothers, ministers, deacons, and other members of religious orders who serve pursuant to their religious obligations in schools, hospitals, and other institutions operated by their church or religious order shall not be considered to be ‘employees.’”[vii]

The 4th Circuit went on to use Title VII descriptions of “ministerial duties” to come up with the “primary duties” test to determine whether the exception applies. They focused on “the function of the position,” rather than whether the person was formally ordained. “[A]s a general rule, if the employee’s primary duties consist of teaching, spreading the faith, church governance, supervision of a religious order, or supervision or participation in religious ritual and worship, he or she should be considered ‘clergy.’”[viii]
Therefore, even though the clergy of a church are not covered by the FLSA due to the “ministerial exemption,” exemptions to the general rule are construed narrowly, and other employees may be covered by the FLSA. Thus regarding these employees, the church is obliged to comply with minimum wage and overtime regulations.

Volunteers Not Covered by FLSA
...It is important to note that even if workers consider themselves “volunteers,” their intent alone will not exclude them from FLSA rules if they are accepting some other form of compensation. In the Alamo case, former drug addicts who were working for free for the organization, considered themselves volunteers, but they were also residing there for free.[xi] This benefit transformed the workers from the “volunteer” category to “employee status.”[xii]

[iv] Shenandoah Baptist Church, 899 F.2d 1389 (4th Cir. 1990)
[v] Shaliehsabou v. Hebrew Home of Greater Wash., Inc., 363 F.3d 299
[vi] Shaliehsabou, at 305.
[vii] Id.
[viii] Id., quoting Bruce N. Bagni, Discrimination in the Name of the Lord: A Critical Evaluation of Discrimination by Religious Organizations, 79 Colum. L. Rev. 1514, 1545 (1979).
[ix] Fair Labor Standards Act – Title 29 § 203(e)(1) Except as provided in paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the term “employee” means any individual employed by an employer; (g) “Employ” includes to suffer or permit to work.
[xi] Alamo, at 293, stating “[T]he associates who worked in these businesses were ‘employees’ of the Alamos and of the Foundation within the meaning of the Act. The associates who had testified at trial had vigorously protested the payment of wages, asserting that they considered themselves volunteers who were working only for religious and evangelical reasons. Nevertheless, the District Court found that the associates were ‘entirely dependent upon the Foundation for long periods.’ Although they did not expect compensation in the form of ordinary wages, the District Court found, they did expect the Foundation to provide them ‘food, shelter, clothing, transportation and medical benefits.’
[xii] Alamo, at 290, stating “The Foundation’s associates are ‘employees’ within the meaning of the Act, because they work in contemplation of compensation. Walling v. Portland Terminal Co., 330 U.S. 148, distinguished. The fact that the associates themselves protest coverage under the Act is not dispositive, since the test of employment under the Act is one of ‘economic reality.’ And the fact that the compensation is primarily in the form of benefits rather than cash is immaterial in this context, such benefits simply being wages in another form.”

Fair Labor Standards Act and Religion
Published: 21-06-2012, 16:32
DAVID L. GREGORY
http://american-civil-liberties.com/organizations/3782-fair-labor-standards-act-and-religion.html

Since the Court’s Alamo decision in 1985, several federal circuit courts of appeals have issued decisions in full accord with the Alamo precedent.

In Reich v. Shiloh True Light Church of Christ, the court determined that children younger than the age of sixteen employed in the commercial enterprises of a religious institution as part of their religious belief that they should receive vocational training are covered employees under the FLSA. Church youth participated in the Shiloh Vocational Training Program, through which they performed various construction projects. In turn, customers paid the Church for the services performed. Children younger than the age of sixteen did not receive wages for their work. Instead, they received lump sum payments that the Church characterized as gifts. In these situations where free labor is for the supposed benefit of the worker, the general test applied by the courts is whether the employer or the employee is the primary beneficiary of the free labor. Because the Church was the primary beneficiary of the labor, the children were in fact employees and thus entitled to the protections of the FLSA.
Applicability of the FLSA often arises in religiously affiliated schools. Dole v. Shenandoah Baptist Church involved application of the FLSA to lay faculty at the Roanoke Valley Christian Schools operated by the Shenandoah Baptist Church. The Church asserted that application of the FLSA would violate both the free exercise and establishment clauses of the First Amendment. The court disagreed, holding that the FLSA applies to church run schools that are enterprises within the meaning of the FLSA. Any minimal free exercise burden was justified by the compelling government interest in enforcing the minimum wage and equal pay provisions of the FLSA. Likewise, in DeArment v. Harvey, a church-operated a private religious school was subject to the FLSA. The school used a unique learning technique composed of a self-study program for the students. A supervisor and class monitor assisted the students in their studies. The students themselves were responsible for independent learning, whereas the supervisors graded papers, answered students’ questions, conducted prayer services, and counseled students. Both the supervisor and the class monitors were required to be born again Christians, and these employees considered their work an integral component of their personal ministry. However, despite the contention that their employment was part of their religious ideology, the Court applied Shenandoah, holding that the FLSA applied to both the class monitors and supervisors. The ministerial exemption of the FLSA is narrowly limited in its application. Clearly, this exception includes ordained clergy, as well as employees essential to carry out particular religious rituals.
In light of the narrow applicability of the ministerial exception, religious organizations engaged in commercial enterprises will usually be deemed employers of employees subject to the FLSA.


http://www.tritonhr.com/news/news.php?id=26

03/29/2010 – Federal Wage and Hour Laws (FLSA)
Monday, March 29, 2010

Religious Institutions

Religious institutions are not automatically exempt from the FLSA. Many religious organizations do operate businesses. The FLSA does cover the ordinary commercial activities of religious organizations. If a religious organization runs a hospital, school, or residential care institution, it will be covered by the FLSA. Enterprise coverage, however, is not applicable to employees who are engaged exclusively in the operation of a religious organization, because their activities are not performed for a business purpose.

DOL's Field Operations Handbook states that there is no provision in the FLSA that prohibits an employer-employee relationship between a religious, charitable, or nonprofit organization and people who perform work for the organization. For example, a church or religious institution may operate an establishment to print books and employ a regular staff who do this work as a means of livelihood. In such cases, an employer-employee relationship would exist under the FLSA.

The Handbook also states that "persons such as nuns, monks, priests, lay brothers, ministers, deacons, and other members of religious orders who serve pursuant to their religious obligations in the schools, hospitals, and other institutions operated by their church or religious order shall not be considered to be ‘employees.’" However, the Handbook also states that the fact that such a person is a member of a religious order does not automatically preclude an employer-employee relationship. This rule is rather ambiguous, and an employer should consider consulting an attorney to determine whether an employer-employee relationship exists in this situation.
 
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failboat

Patron with Honors
I don't know why they even bother setting rules they can't be arsed to enforce. That's quite disappointing.

Some commenters on the blog I linked have pointed out that the penalty was only rescinded for this year, and that businesses may still face penalties or liability for failure to notify, eventually. Also, according to the commenters, the law was changed 3 weeks ago to remove the fine, for 2013 only.

http://www.sba.gov/community/blogs/...loyees-about-new-health-insurance-marketplace

Commenter -
PC1 9/15/2013 - 9:19 am
This part of the law was modified on September 11th, 2013. The fine will not
be imposed. Like everything about this law, it's like wrapping your arms
around jello...just when you think you understand, the rules change...all the
while businesses are racking up costs.

Thanks for clarifying that the fine is no longer imposed this year...but you
should disclose that it is only a Myth as of Sept. 12th, 2013 after the rule
was changed. It should also be noted the fine does go into effect in
subsequent years.


Another commenter -
ShawnPerry 9/25/2013 - 4:46 am
The lack of penalties does not translate into a lack of consequences. Plan
sponsors still have a fiduciary obligation to be forthcoming with plan
participants and beneficiaries. Employees can sue employer and claim damages
if they miss the open enrollment period just because employer failed to
provide the notice on time.

Commenter ShawnPerry provided a link to a website which claims that businesses that are non-compliant can be liable and sued for damages. However, that website is full of typos and also sells an Obamacare notification email service to businesses, so I'm not sure whether you should take their word for it, or the word of ShawnPerry. The way comments have been moderated would suggest otherwise. Looking at the other comments on that sba.gov blog post, a lot have been deleted for spam, including at least 1 comment that came later than ShawnPerry, which suggests to me that his comment, link and all, has already been moderated and passed muster at that government blog.
The link -
http://aca-obamacare.com/

Key quotes
If you have missed the [Oct 1] deadline, you can still benefit from the grace period. The open enrollment begins from Oct1 and continues through March 31 2014. Failing to notify during this period may cause employees to not able to purchase coverage from the marketplace. All such employees then become eligible to claim damages from the employer...

...The lack of penalties does not translate into a lack of consequences. Plan sponsors still have a fiduciary obligation to be forthcoming with plan participants and beneficiaries. Sending notification is still technically obligatory for businesses under the law (section 18B of FLSA). Failing to meet this requirement makes business non-compliant.
Also, if the employee does not receive the notice and he misses the open enrollment period on the marketplaces, he can later sue the employer for damages.
 
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failboat

Patron with Honors
http://www.cutimes.com/2013/09/17/12-ways-to-avoid-obamacare-fines
12 Ways to Avoid Obamacare Fines By Dan Cook
September 17, 2013
Just last week, the DOL went on record saying that employers don’t need to worry about being fined for failing to notify their workers of their health coverage options in writing by Oct. 1.
So, as an employer, why bother if there’s no penalty?

Because fines might come from somewhere else aside from the DOL, says attorney Keith McMurdy, a partner with Fox Rothschild LLP in New York.

McMurdy has been wrestling with the comply-don’t comply dilemma for a while. Now, he said, he is recommending that companies simply comply, because failure to do so could come back to bite you.

McMurdy told BenefitsPro.com that the byzantine sanctions process surrounding the act offer several agencies the option to go after non-compliant employers – if they so choose. Among those who might come after a non-compliant employer:


  • The IRS.
  • DOL’s Wage and Hour Division, which administers the Fair Labor Standards Act, where the law’s notification requirement can be found (section 18B).
  • An employee or an employee’s representative (i.e., a union or a labor lawyer) that might decide to file a lawsuit.
“Effectively, the DOL is saying, ‘We won’t penalize or fine you.’ But they are wording their position very carefully. What they don’t say is that someone else might decide to go ahead and enforce the sanctions,” McMurdy said. “How much of a stretch would it be for an employee at a company with 2,000-3,000 employees to decide to file a class-action suit on behalf of all the workers because you didn’t comply with the notification rule? Not only would you have to pay the fine, but all attorney fees as well.”
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
It is already happening. Only one who has the IQ of the common garden snail or, lives in a cave without communications doesn't know that already.

For every business modeled on exploiting people that dies, new ones that are modeled taking compassion to account will spring up.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
It is IRS Form # 4361 Application for Exemption from Self-Employment Tax for use by Ministers, Members of Religious Orders and Christian Science Practitioners. Sea Org members filed as ordained ministers (there are several options to check if you look at the form).

My husband is an accountant and he says that many ministers work as contracted workers, using 1099 instead of W4.

Here is some discussion regarding Form #4361 and Obamacare. The tax expert who responded to the questioner seems to think 4361 does not exempt one from the individual responsibility.

https://ttlc.intuit.com/health-care...pt-from-aca-individual-responsibility-penalty

Question (by tx_minister):
Will self employment tax exempt ministers be exempt from aca individual responsibility penalty? I see that CMS has posted draft forms for exemption from the ACA's penalty for not having health insurance. I see one for those who have an approved 4029, but not one for ministers with a 4361. Does anyone know if they will eventually accommodate ministers with a conscientious objection?


Answer (by bwa):
Not necessarily. They would be exempt if they belong to a religious group such as Amish or some Mennonite sects that are opposed to insurance. They are not exempt, however, merely by being a self-employed minister.

The profile of the guy who answered:
https://ttlc.intuit.com/users/5111933-bwa
About Me:
34 years involvement with taxes in first level, management and mid-level positions. After retirement, taught accounting and income taxes at two different colleges.

EDIT: Here's material from earlier in this thread about some of the groups that bwa is alluding to, I think. The spreadsheet of exempt religious groups is at the bottom. The comments that are not from factcheck.org are from WWP user Enturbuleak.
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/dhi...lim-exemption/

In our article "More Malarkey About Health Care," we wrote that some religious groups may indeed be considered exempt from the requirement to have health insurance. The law defines exempt groups using the definition from 26 U.S. Code section 1402(g)(1), which describes the religious groups currently considered exempt from Social Security payroll taxes. Eligible sects must forbid any payout in the event of death, disability, old age or retirement, including Social Security and Medicare.

Since we posted our article, we’ve obtained a list through the Freedom of Information Act of all the groups that have successfully applied for exemptions from payroll taxes. (We have posted the Excel file here.) The overwhelming majority of them are explicitly Anabaptist — that is, Mennonite, Amish or Hutterite. Those that don’t specify their denomination are still explicitly Christian. Having gone through the list, we can say with certainty that no Muslim group, and indeed no non-Christian group, has ever qualified for an exemption under the statute used to define exempt religious groups in the health care law.



The Excel file mentioned can be downloaded here:

http://factcheck.annenbergpublicpoli.../SSAGroups.xls

And no, Scientology is not on the list of groups exempt from Social security payroll taxes.
 
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failboat

Patron with Honors
I am giving this a bump for 2014. Open enrollment on federal/state exchanges ends on March 31, 2014, which is also the due date for getting insurance as required by the individual mandate or being subject to a tax penalty.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/votes/200497-dems-gop-agree-on-religion-tweak-to-obamacare
House OKs religious exemptions to having a healthcare plan
House Democrats joined Republicans on Tuesday to pass legislation that would expand an exemption under ObamaCare for people who don't want health insurance for religious reasons.

The Republican House has passed dozens of bills to chip away at ObamaCare over the last few years, some of which had support from more than 30 Democrats. But the bill up today was considered under a suspension of the rules, which meant that support from about 50 Democrats was needed in order for the bills to pass with a two-thirds majority vote.

Its easy passage by voice vote sets up the possibility that it could be considered by the Senate, unlike the dozens of other bills that were mostly supported by Republicans and then ignored by Senate Democrats.

Members approved the Equitable Access to Care and Health (EACH) Act, H.R. 1814. The bill would let people avoid buying health insurance under ObamaCare if they could cite a religious reason.
Rep. Aaron Schock (R-Ill.), who sponsored the bill, said, ... "Among the many problems with the Affordable Care Act, the current conscience exemption only protects religious exemptions of a few select faiths."
...
People seeking an exemption would have to include sworn statements in their tax returns explaining their objection to health insurance.
...

The bill says anyone who gets a religious exemption and then seeks medical treatment would have their exemption revoked.
...

From - http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/votes/200497-dems-gop-agree-on-religion-tweak-to-obamacare

This passed the House. I will keep an eye out for its consideration by the Senate, where it will first go to committee. (It needs to pass both Houses of Congress before being considered by the President, who might veto it.) I don't know that Scientologists could avail themselves of the exemption it could provide, but it seems possible. The current language of the bill allows revocation of the religious exemption if the person to whom it was granted later seeks medical treatment.





More coverage here: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598711/Voice-vote-in-House-advances-Obamacare-religious-exemption-broadening.html
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/votes/200497-dems-gop-agree-on-religion-tweak-to-obamacare
House OKs religious exemptions to having a healthcare plan


From - http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/votes/200497-dems-gop-agree-on-religion-tweak-to-obamacare

This passed the House. I will keep an eye out for its consideration by the Senate, where it will first go to committee. (It needs to pass both Houses of Congress before being considered by the President, who might veto it.) I don't know that Scientologists could avail themselves of the exemption it could provide, but it seems possible. The current language of the bill allows revocation of the religious exemption if the person to whom it was granted later seeks medical treatment.





More coverage here: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598711/Voice-vote-in-House-advances-Obamacare-religious-exemption-broadening.html

Motherfucker. This is as bad as the religious exemption for vaccinations.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Bump.

Today is the last day for open enrollment on the health care marketplaces. It's basically the deadline to get enrolled under the Individual mandate. (The Employer mandate begins 1/2015.)

Last week, Hobby Lobby argued its case for a religious exemption to PPACA in front of SCOTUS. There's a ton of coverage, if you're interested in searching it out. I've already posted arguments against that particular exemption earlier ITT.

Also, you can follow up on the other religious exemption currently in Congress (the EACH Act, mentioned 2 posts ago) at this URL:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr1814
 
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.
.

Does that mean SO and other scientologists will be even FURTHER discouraged from seeing doctors etc, because to do so could create out-pr for the scientologists desire to have exemption?

If too many people get exemption and then have to get medical care, which (individually) cancels their exemption, the government might at some stage refuse exemptions to scientologists. That would mean that someone would have to PAY = bad for running a slave operation. So; claim exemption and never get medical care which cancels the exemption.
Does that make sense?
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
I am re-posting a comment from here - http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...er-speaks-out!&p=923281&viewfull=1#post923281

I have some questions I would love for someone to ask Jillian Schlesinger - or any of these other Sea Org members who've allegedly left in recent weeks. I hope that people who are watching this thread can pass along these queries, as I believe that they are important.

As of March 31st/April 1st, open enrollment on the Health Insurance Exchanges ended. In effect, the individual mandate of the Affordable Care Act to obtain health insurance began a few days ago. I would love to know to what extent CoS and CoS employees are in compliance with this new legislation - and recently departed employees would be the people to ask:


  • Are Scientology employees encouraged to seek health insurance?
  • In preparation for the individual mandate, have Scientology employees been notified by their employer(s) of the Health Insurance Exchanges, as required by the Affordable Care Act? * (See here, "Regarding October 1 Notifications" - http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea...l=1#post851256
  • Are Sea Org workers (and Staff) who make less than minimum wage on Medicaid, the free federal & state health insurance system for low-income Americans? (Eligibility is based on income against a certain percent of the poverty line, varying by state.)
  • Are Scientology employees who qualify being encouraged to get on Medicaid, in California (Medi-Cal)? In any other states?
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Regarding Damian Kevitt,

I couldn't find another thread on ESMB where this situation is discussed, so I am continuing this here.
Injured cyclist prepares to ‘finish the ride’ he started
By Edwin Folven, 4/17/2014

A little more than a year after being struck by a hit and run driver and dragged for more than 600 feet under the vehicle, Hollywood resident Damian Kevitt has returned to cycling and will be joined by hundreds of other cyclists for an event he organized — “Finish the Ride” on Sunday, April 27.

...


Kevitt was in an intensive care unit for three weeks, and suffered more than 20 broken bones. His right leg was amputated, and doctors initially thought they would have to also amputate his left leg, but were able to save his limb. He spent four months in the hospital and a physical rehabilitation facility.
Kevitt said coming to terms with the incident and his recovery has been very challenging. From the beginning, he hoped to turn it into something positive. That desire resulted in “Finish the Ride”, which he is organizing with the Los Angeles County Bicycle Coalition.
“I try to keep things light and positive, and am looking forward. It’s really about focusing on the future,” Kevitt said. “I’m definitely not taking it sitting down. In the days after the accident, I thought about finishing the ride … just out of principle alone.”
Between 500 and 600 cyclists have signed up to participate in “Finish the Ride”, and cyclists can choose from a six, 12 or 23-mile course. Registration is $30 for the six-mile ride, and $60 for the 12 or 23-mile rides. Proceeds will benefit the Challenged Athletes Foundation, which supports people with physical disabilities.
Kevitt has worked as a counselor for the Church of Scientology in Hollywood for nearly 20 years, and the church donated the use of its parking lot near Sunset Boulevard and Vermont Avenue as a staging area for the ride. Registration opens at 6:30 a.m., with speakers such as Assemblyman Mike Gatto (D-Los Angeles) appearing at 8 a.m.


Full story - http://parklabreanewsbeverlypress.c...ist-prepares-to-‘finish-the-ride’-he-started/
 

Whitedove

Patron Meritorious
I have not read the whole thread but the few first messages and also from what I have heared on the news. I have eared someone saying that the health care President Obama wants to put in place is 'communism'. :hysterical:

I live in a country that is democratic. Well, what is democracy nowadays in any countries anyway? Capitalism is the word.

But, I'm deviating here. What the hell is wrong with everyone pinchin in so that EVERYONE can have basic health care? Tell me where communism is in there? You have a problem with helping each other? It's each his own and if a person do not have money, well, let them die?

Those that have more money still have better health care even where I live. BUT, at least even the poor one have the right to be helped if he needs it.

Ok, it is not perfect but it sure beats the US health care in place right now. Have you ever seen the movie with Denzel Washington 'John Q' based on a true story? If not, you should watch it. It would make you think a bit if you are smart enough.

I would pay to have a President Obama for my country. But many Americans do not see it that way. It is sad. You have a man who is trying to change major issues that would make the people of your country better yet, you almost spit on him.

And believe me, MANY other countries see it that way too.

I dearly hope he will win this one.

getting off my...

:soapbox:
 

JGB

Patron
I have not read the whole thread but the few first messages and also from what I have heared on the news. I have eared someone saying that the health care President Obama wants to put in place is 'communism'. :hysterical:

I live in a country that is democratic. Well, what is democracy nowadays in any countries anyway? Capitalism is the word.

But, I'm deviating here. What the hell is wrong with everyone pinchin in so that EVERYONE can have basic health care? Tell me where communism is in there? You have a problem with helping each other? It's each his own and if a person do not have money, well, let them die?

Those that have more money still have better health care even where I live. BUT, at least even the poor one have the right to be helped if he needs it.

Ok, it is not perfect but it sure beats the US health care in place right now. Have you ever seen the movie with Denzel Washington 'John Q' based on a true story? If not, you should watch it. It would make you think a bit if you are smart enough.

I would pay to have a President Obama for my country. But many Americans do not see it that way. It is sad. You have a man who is trying to change major issues that would make the people of your country better yet, you almost spit on him.

And believe me, MANY other countries see it that way too.

I dearly hope he will win this one.

getting off my...

:soapbox:

OBAMACARE is not HEALTH CARE! It is forcing people to buy so called health insurance and nothing more. He has given the insurance companies who donated to his campaign more profits at the expense of the American tax payer.

You can have Obama and his cronies! It will take decades to undo all the damage that POS has done.
 

JGB

Patron
Hello ESMB

EDIT: This thread isn't meant to devolve into a constitutional debate or a political debate, so please don't derail it with either subject.

It's about fleshing out the law, AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, and its effects on Sea Org, Staff, and Scientologists.

All the SNAKE David Miscarriage has to do is pay millions to Obama's library and Obie will sign an executive order to exempt Scio.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
OBAMACARE is not HEALTH CARE! It is forcing people to buy so called health insurance and nothing more. He has given the insurance companies who donated to his campaign more profits at the expense of the American tax payer.

You can have Obama and his cronies! It will take decades to undo all the damage that POS has done.

If you are unemployed or from another country (many pregnant Mexican women do this), go to Massachusetts and get free "Romneycare". He did this for his own state. And he was MUCH more "liberal" about his plan. Also, I have not been forced to buy an insurance plan.

If you need surgery, or other expensive medical care, rent a place in MA, and do a change of address for your mail. Then go to any hospital, and tell them you need free medical -- the process takes 5-10 minutes. Your card arrives via mail in days, and there you go. Romneycare.
 
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