gomorrhan
Gold Meritorious Patron
I just got done writing a pretty long post to an email list, and wanted to share the thought with this board as well. I framed it in scientologese because that's where I first got the idea, but it's certainly not unique to scientology, nor was scientology the genesis of the idea amongst other generations. Groups like "Upwingers", "The Immortalists" and others, some entirely secular, some deeply spiritual, are trying to organize projects and donate to foundations that are bringing us closer and closer to practical immortality and the ability to control the physical universe or create NEW universes to custom order (ref. Calabi-Yau spaces, as explained and discovered by Kaluza and Klein whose research occurred parallel to Einstein's). There was a news item today which sparked me, here http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/05/09/physics.nima/index.html So, without further ado... I blather!
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Where composite case issues come to play I would think that the best thing to do would be to handle them! I'm not at ALL against having the correct technology to handle such things, should they pop up. What I object to is being told what my item is, when it's actually something else, or when my own ITSA line is being bypassed (even if it's right, I should be the one reporting it). A program should be created on AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS for each person, IMO (while it is very likely that the sorts of steps necessary will be highly regular, as in the grades, an assumption about always running a given sort of item, when it may not be present, should not be made).
Sooner or later, if we want to start telling new stories with our lives, we will have to stop telling the old story compulsively.
Exteriorization is a distinct issue. I have viewed subjectively experienced universes which don't correspond to the physical universe. I think there is a mistake in believing that subjectively experienced phenomena are occurring in the physical universe. I don't "account for it", because I don't feel it occurs on a regular basis, is not repeatable at will, and is not corroborated by witnesses: in other words, it's subjective, without basis in physical reality. If it occurs, I consider it a positive indicator, but I don't consider it the objective of processing, just as I don't consider the objective of processing to make a person happy. Happiness is a transient condition experienced as a byproduct of making progress towards or the achievement of goals, and is similar in this respect to exteriorization (transience, and a byproduct of doing something else, typically, IMO, transcending two or more viewpoints to arrive at a viewpoint that incorporates all of them, but is also "exterior" to all of them). Gives me an idea for a process, actually. Something like "mock up a viewpoint", followed by "occupy your own viewpoint", followed by "occupy the other viewpoint", back and forth, until e/p. That probably already exists in some form, but I'm claiming it nonetheless.
I'm not sidestepping your question, though. What I have claimed hasn't happened is a demonstration that past-life recall having direct bearing or information for present time locations or situations (vis-a-vis "Mission Into Time", which I understand was a dismal failure). It's the eternality of the being that I question (or flatly refute, when I'm feeling antagonistic). I see it as POSSIBLE. In the manner that LRH discussed as far back as Dianetics, where he was talking about people's tone improving, gradually, and as their tone improved, their potential immortality gets closer and closer. I see that as true, but not as ever having occurred in the physical universe. Thetans may exist in a subjective eternality, but with regard to the physical universe, they discorporate at body death, and I've seen no evidence of memory or survival of the subjective youness from one life to the next. I'm very interested in Hubbard's description of the Conquest of Theta over mest, as described in Science of Survival. I believe as we amass more and more data about this universe, and our bodies as constituted from parts of that universe, there is a concomitant rise in tone of the whole civilization, which allows individuals to START out with a greater chance of physical longevity, and eventually, practical immortality, and full control of the physical forces which are still being tested, and probably will be for hundreds of more years, if not thousands more years, until we can control time, energy, matter and space, truely, in the physical universe. Achievement of this goal, as a species, is the game we are currently involved in. I don't see any reason to retreat from that goal towards something which has not been proven to be possible, in personal spiritual immortality sans body.
Nor do I see it in terms of dominating the universe! I'm not to be tarred as Cartesian, in that manner. Having the ability to control the universe doesn't mean you exercise that ability to dominate it or its inhabitants, but instead, that you are capable of helping and communicating and creating or destroying anything that you feel like, at the time. It may even be discovered how to do this without any vias (such as machines, constructs, gadgets, whatever). We may learn how intention directly effects things at a quantum level, and learn how to amplify that capability exponentially, such that by intention, we generate these effects in the physical universe. I don't see it as realistic that we could do this without understanding the universe, or how intention manifests in physical reality, except through blunt force, which would have a high error rate and likely cause great suffering. Correct estimation of effort is needed, and for this, science has been the vehicle for hundreds of years. I don't see that changing.
For those claiming open access to full recall along the track, where there were greater civilizations than our own, it is likely that at some point in a 76 trillion year history, one of the lifetimes was spent as a physicist, or other technologist. Such a person should be able to make a fortune and push us forward as a civilization rapidly by simply accessing these memories, and dredging up new ideas (new to this civilization), and then implementing them. I see it as a huge outpoint that this has never occurred, to my knowledge. The first scientologist to announce prior to starting a career in the sciences that they would do JUST THIS, and then actually do it, and collecting a Nobel Prize or some such, would immediately stop all the yapping of critics, and the doubters. That nobody has ever done this, to me, speaks of their inability to do so, as it should be a simple matter of recall and then implementation.
Meanwhile, I'll keep plugging along using the techniques I know, promising the results I know can be delivered, and nothing more. And I'll read Ray Kurzweil, Michio Kaku, Brian Greene and David Deutsch, because they are blazing real trails in the above sorts of technologies and mathmatics needed to make such radical changes, down the line. Science is a fourth dynamic activity, and is opening the universe to us.
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Where composite case issues come to play I would think that the best thing to do would be to handle them! I'm not at ALL against having the correct technology to handle such things, should they pop up. What I object to is being told what my item is, when it's actually something else, or when my own ITSA line is being bypassed (even if it's right, I should be the one reporting it). A program should be created on AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS for each person, IMO (while it is very likely that the sorts of steps necessary will be highly regular, as in the grades, an assumption about always running a given sort of item, when it may not be present, should not be made).
Sooner or later, if we want to start telling new stories with our lives, we will have to stop telling the old story compulsively.
Exteriorization is a distinct issue. I have viewed subjectively experienced universes which don't correspond to the physical universe. I think there is a mistake in believing that subjectively experienced phenomena are occurring in the physical universe. I don't "account for it", because I don't feel it occurs on a regular basis, is not repeatable at will, and is not corroborated by witnesses: in other words, it's subjective, without basis in physical reality. If it occurs, I consider it a positive indicator, but I don't consider it the objective of processing, just as I don't consider the objective of processing to make a person happy. Happiness is a transient condition experienced as a byproduct of making progress towards or the achievement of goals, and is similar in this respect to exteriorization (transience, and a byproduct of doing something else, typically, IMO, transcending two or more viewpoints to arrive at a viewpoint that incorporates all of them, but is also "exterior" to all of them). Gives me an idea for a process, actually. Something like "mock up a viewpoint", followed by "occupy your own viewpoint", followed by "occupy the other viewpoint", back and forth, until e/p. That probably already exists in some form, but I'm claiming it nonetheless.
I'm not sidestepping your question, though. What I have claimed hasn't happened is a demonstration that past-life recall having direct bearing or information for present time locations or situations (vis-a-vis "Mission Into Time", which I understand was a dismal failure). It's the eternality of the being that I question (or flatly refute, when I'm feeling antagonistic). I see it as POSSIBLE. In the manner that LRH discussed as far back as Dianetics, where he was talking about people's tone improving, gradually, and as their tone improved, their potential immortality gets closer and closer. I see that as true, but not as ever having occurred in the physical universe. Thetans may exist in a subjective eternality, but with regard to the physical universe, they discorporate at body death, and I've seen no evidence of memory or survival of the subjective youness from one life to the next. I'm very interested in Hubbard's description of the Conquest of Theta over mest, as described in Science of Survival. I believe as we amass more and more data about this universe, and our bodies as constituted from parts of that universe, there is a concomitant rise in tone of the whole civilization, which allows individuals to START out with a greater chance of physical longevity, and eventually, practical immortality, and full control of the physical forces which are still being tested, and probably will be for hundreds of more years, if not thousands more years, until we can control time, energy, matter and space, truely, in the physical universe. Achievement of this goal, as a species, is the game we are currently involved in. I don't see any reason to retreat from that goal towards something which has not been proven to be possible, in personal spiritual immortality sans body.
Nor do I see it in terms of dominating the universe! I'm not to be tarred as Cartesian, in that manner. Having the ability to control the universe doesn't mean you exercise that ability to dominate it or its inhabitants, but instead, that you are capable of helping and communicating and creating or destroying anything that you feel like, at the time. It may even be discovered how to do this without any vias (such as machines, constructs, gadgets, whatever). We may learn how intention directly effects things at a quantum level, and learn how to amplify that capability exponentially, such that by intention, we generate these effects in the physical universe. I don't see it as realistic that we could do this without understanding the universe, or how intention manifests in physical reality, except through blunt force, which would have a high error rate and likely cause great suffering. Correct estimation of effort is needed, and for this, science has been the vehicle for hundreds of years. I don't see that changing.
For those claiming open access to full recall along the track, where there were greater civilizations than our own, it is likely that at some point in a 76 trillion year history, one of the lifetimes was spent as a physicist, or other technologist. Such a person should be able to make a fortune and push us forward as a civilization rapidly by simply accessing these memories, and dredging up new ideas (new to this civilization), and then implementing them. I see it as a huge outpoint that this has never occurred, to my knowledge. The first scientologist to announce prior to starting a career in the sciences that they would do JUST THIS, and then actually do it, and collecting a Nobel Prize or some such, would immediately stop all the yapping of critics, and the doubters. That nobody has ever done this, to me, speaks of their inability to do so, as it should be a simple matter of recall and then implementation.
Meanwhile, I'll keep plugging along using the techniques I know, promising the results I know can be delivered, and nothing more. And I'll read Ray Kurzweil, Michio Kaku, Brian Greene and David Deutsch, because they are blazing real trails in the above sorts of technologies and mathmatics needed to make such radical changes, down the line. Science is a fourth dynamic activity, and is opening the universe to us.
