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04/09/14 Austin Appeals Court Hearing regarding DM's Deposition Order

Adam7986

Declared SP
Let me pose it this way:


If you were DM, and you had "clean hands", why would you pay 22 lawyers to getting yourself from being deposed?

If you were DM, and had "clean hands", why not just allow yourself to get deposed? IE, DM says, sure, ask me any questions you want, I have "clean hands" so I have nothing to hide.

I get what you are saying and I have not disagreed with you. It's a fun thing to say, but it misses the point by a mile and a half. :unsure: I was trying to say that it's not about clean hands. It goes without saying why DM doesn't want to be deposed. No one who is being sued for something ever wants to be deposed, least of all when it's true.

Marty and Monique named several defendants in the lawsuit, which is why there are so many lawyers. Only 2 of them are there representing Miscavige and only those two have fought against his deposition: the Jefferson brothers.

If I thought I could argue that I was outside the jurisdiction of the court and get myself removed from the suit just to avoid having to fly my ass to CA and/or spend the next three weeks being deposed (and then potentially have to testify in my own defense), yeah I probably would try to get out of it. One way only costs me money, the other way costs me time and money. And lots of both. Even though I might want to get out of being deposed, I probably couldn't afford it. But he can, and if I could afford to do what he is doing, I'd probably do it too.

DM Is trying to squash the deposition first and then get himself dropped as a defendant in the suit. If he submitted to a deposition outright, then it could be considered that he is conceding to the jurisdiction of the court and so he could never get out of the suit.

Of course we all know he is guilty of all kinds of crimes, but fortunately or unfortunately our legal system doesn't allow judges to take that position.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
I hope you're right, but in my experience, things don't necessarily play out that way in life.

If any of these judges know the guy, play golf with him, socialize with him...it may be hard for them to make a ruling against him.

I'm sure that's what COS is counting on, which is why they hired him in the first place.

I respectfully disagree. Anyone in the legal profession lives to argue with people. Disagreeing or ruling against someone constitutes no manner of respect or disrespect towards the person being disagreed with or ruled against. It's all part and parcel of the legal game.

The legal profession and the banking profession both have one thing in common: in the end everyone gets paid (unless it's a charity case).
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the point is DM is named in the lawsuit. So it has nothing to do with whether or not his hands are dirty. It has to do with the fact that he isa named defendant in a lawsuit that is claiming immunity to deposition under the apex doctrine. That's an impossible argument! Their other argument is that the state of TX has no jurisdiction over Miscavige.

Nothing is impossible for "GOD" and Davey boy knows it. He, in his mind knows he is the APEX god and has no hand in or knowledge of mere mortal organizations and his only duty is to visit his [STRIKE]Ideal Orgs[/STRIKE] pots of Gold and make sure by his 'reign' of terror that they are appropriately emptied of souls and cash :) besides Texas is such a small state why would any "big being' be bothered with it anyhow. LOL Daveyboy's constipated law. :yes:

Let me pose it this way:


If you were DM, and you had "clean hands", why would you pay 22 lawyers to getting yourself from being deposed?

If you were DM, and had "clean hands", why not just allow yourself to get deposed? IE, DM says, sure, ask me any questions you want, I have "clean hands" so I have nothing to hide.

Maybe because Dm knows he is the 'devil' and it is only pretending to be 'god'. We could add a new definition of hell in the dictionary. DM's mind. :hysterical:

Regardless of all of the above, this is a civil harassment case not what what the defenders are trying to parlay it into.
Obviously my IANAL opinions.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I respectfully disagree. Anyone in the legal profession lives to argue with people. Disagreeing or ruling against someone constitutes no manner of respect or disrespect towards the person being disagreed with or ruled against. It's all part and parcel of the legal game.

The legal profession and the banking profession both have one thing in common: in the end everyone gets paid (unless it's a charity case).


I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't.

You have a person who was number one judge making himself into a lawyer (which is lower than a judge) making an argument to other judges who, up until three months ago, were underneath him.

And the winning or losing of this argument is really, really important to the client, who is the first client of this now ex-judge.

I just think the dynamics of this must be weird all around.

And though disagreeing with him wouldn't necessarily mean disrespect, it still means he loses.

And losing, you know, will be a big issue for this client and therefore this ex-judge.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
It is really wonderful to see this combination of heart felt compassion and mental brilliance come together.:thumbsup: I am grateful and encouraged by the defense team and the 'reporters' and even commentators.

Since there wasn't really anything new with today's hearing as expected, I'll just try to share some anecdotes as my mind farts them out.

Afterwards Derek and I got to speak with Leslie Hyman. She let it be known that she actively reads ESMB!! So say "Hi" everybody. She also wanted to pass along that she is aging quite well contrary to some claim made on this here board some time in the past. :confused2: Who could that have been? I'm researching that myself. I told her that her biggest fans are on ESMB. And she acknowledged that fact.

Anyway, she is a very warm, down-to-earth person. All of the Mosey lawyers are. I also got to speak with Marc Wiegand for the first time. Very gentle soul. And of course I've already posted my impressions of Ray in the past. Just the kind of guy everyone would want to have as a friend.

Also Jillian, the recently escaped SO staffer was there with Mike Bennitt. Don't know exactly why, but it was a privilege to meet her and give her a thumbs up!! She and Derek compared SO notes, and he asked her about his brother who is still in.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I respectfully disagree. Anyone in the legal profession lives to argue with people. Disagreeing or ruling against someone constitutes no manner of respect or disrespect towards the person being disagreed with or ruled against. It's all part and parcel of the legal game.

The legal profession and the banking profession both have one thing in common: in the end everyone gets paid (unless it's a charity case).

May I interject?

I may be off, but seeing how DM LOVES LOVES LOVES Rathbun, I am pretty sure, more than any other requested deposition, there is NO WAY IN HELL he will submit to one for RATHBUN. I am pretty sure that it is a supercharged area for DM. And it's personal.

Not directly related to what you are saying.

But DM will happily dish out parishoners donated money to keep himself out of the case.

--------

And who's to say even if he is deposed, he will deny everything and then Jeffreys comes out with a bunch more evidence proving perjury? I don't know the law, so excuse my ignorance. I almost have this feeling they want him to lie in deposition. Pretty sure it helps their case, not hinders it.
 

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
Re: 04/09/14 Austin Appeals Court Hearing - John MacCormack's Article

From John MacCormack @ the San Antonio Express-News...

"Scientology Harassment Case Reaches Texas Appeals Court"

Excerpt #1:
AUSTIN — Ordered to come to Texas for a deposition in a lawsuit filed over a campaign of harassment, surveillance and dirty tricks that he is accused of orchestrating, Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige took his case Wednesday to the Third Court of Appeals.

Excerpt #2:
In a presentation to the appellate justices Wednesday, Leslie Hyman, representing Monique Rathbun, argued that Miscavige is not entitled to a free pass just because he is the head of a religious organization.

“We are entitled to take a deposition of Mr. Miscavige to ask him about his contacts with Texas,” she told the justices. “We all agree things happened in Texas. The question is, was someone pulling the strings causing these things in Texas to take place?”

Excerpt #3:
Among the handful of people attending the hourlong hearing was Jillian Schlesinger, 29, who recently made news by leaving the church after being a member of its “Sea Org” for the past 11 years.

Schlesinger, who said she left because she lost faith in the church, said curiosity brought her to the hearing in Austin.

Inside the church, you don't even know this case is happening. You're kept very separated from the outside world,” she said afterward.

She said that from what she has learned thus far, the Rathbuns' claim that Miscavige was behind the campaign against them makes sense.
Things were run top-down inside the church. Things come down either written or orally from Command Intention, and that's David Miscavige,” she said.

I'm extremely pleased to see Mr. MacCormack continues reporting on this case.

Please read the entire article -- he's even got pics of DM on the page. Link here: http://www.expressnews.com/news/loc...ent-case-reaches-Texas-appeals-5390069.php#/0
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I would love for a judge to reply to that just once with...

Wallace: Scientology is the fastest growing religion on the planet with tens of millions of followers and respected worldwide.

Justice: Is it really? I have never heard of it before, is it a cloistered religion?


Why is Miscavige's team continually allowed to tell the court that Scientology is a "major religion"? Why doesn't someone tell the judge that they are lying?

Tell them to produce the documents that show it is a "major religion" and when they fail to do so, charge them with something. Make them pay a fine or put them in jail. That should shut them up.
 

Karen#1

Gold Meritorious Patron


Michael Bennitt was recently Emailed a slime veiled-threat Email as part of an OSA Black Ops.

http://tonyortega.org/2014/04/08/mi...-after-filming-scientology-events/#more-14289


To celebrate OSA Fair Game and Black Ops ~~
Mike Bennitt is going to release ALL his videos of the Court Room Scenes and all his Flickr account images of the Court scenes to Wikipedia and Wikimedia. (Wiki has been asking him for a while, and even asking me to ask him.)

Due to OSA Black Ops Mike Bennitt will even go further than that. He is assigning a Creative Commons Attribution License like I do with my videos, It means anyone can copy, distribute, propagate, mirror, ad infinitum. All media can take as much as they want of these videos with no worries of any sort.

The Law of Unintended Consequences ! :yes:

Take a peek at some of his Flickr Court room scenes photos....soon being given to everyone, including all media in the world !

https://www.flickr.com/photos/truthrevealed/
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Where's the Fucking Far Out button when you need it? :biggrin:




Michael Bennitt was recently Emailed a slime veiled-threat Email as part of an OSA Black Ops.

http://tonyortega.org/2014/04/08/mi...-after-filming-scientology-events/#more-14289


To celebrate OSA Fair Game and Black Ops ~~
Mike Bennitt is going to release ALL his videos of the Court Room Scenes and all his Flickr account images of the Court scenes to Wikipedia and Wikimedia. (Wiki has been asking him for a while, and even asking me to ask him.)

Due to OSA Black Ops Mike Bennitt will even go further than that. He is assigning a Creative Commons Attribution License like I do with my videos, It means anyone can copy, distribute, propagate, mirror, ad infinitum. All media can take as much as they want of these videos with no worries of any sort.

The Law of Unintended Consequences ! :yes:

Take a peek at some of his Flickr Court room scenes photos....soon being given to everyone, including all media in the world !

https://www.flickr.com/photos/truthrevealed/
 

Lone Star

Crusader
I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't.

You have a person who was number one judge making himself into a lawyer (which is lower than a judge) making an argument to other judges who, up until three months ago, were underneath him.

And the winning or losing of this argument is really, really important to the client, who is the first client of this now ex-judge.

I just think the dynamics of this must be weird all around.

And though disagreeing with him wouldn't necessarily mean disrespect, it still means he loses.

And losing, you know, will be a big issue for this client and therefore this ex-judge.

It's hard to predict what these judges are thinking and feeling. Who knows? A certain percentage of state judges may not like Wallace Jefferson. They may love the opportunity to "stick it to him". Or they may really like and respect him, but will do their job and rule according to the facts of this case as they see and perceive them.

My gut feeling on the three judges yesterday is that they are going to rule according to the law regardless of who the plaintiff's or defendant's attorneys are. I think most judges are honorable people who take the law and their profession seriously. Of course there are some dishonorable snakes who don the robe. Perhaps around ten percent? Maybe more, maybe less.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
It's hard to predict what these judges are thinking and feeling. Who knows? A certain percentage of state judges may not like Wallace Jefferson. They may love the opportunity to "stick it to him". Or they may really like and respect him, but will do their job and rule according to the facts of this case as they see and perceive them.

My gut feeling on the three judges yesterday is that they are going to rule according to the law regardless of who the plaintiff's or defendant's attorneys are. I think most judges are honorable people who take the law and their profession seriously. Of course there are some dishonorable snakes who don the robe. Perhaps around ten percent? Maybe more, maybe less.


I actually don't know either.

I guess my own life and my own world skew my perspective on some things.

I work in a corporation, and underneath the smooth exterior, things are incredibly political. For the most part, people will not do something against someone they perceive could hurt them later on down the line. People who are or have been powerful, people who have friends who are and have been powerful...for the most part, most people avoid fucking with them or crossing them.

Women work there, minorities work there, but, at the end of the day, the Good Old Boys rule.

And you just don't clash with that.

I attended kind of a mini-course on Being Successful At Work that was given by my company. One of the points the instructor made: "Everyone doesn't have to be your friend. But don't make anyone an enemy."

Just kind of brought that think into this.

Like I said, don't know if I'm right or not. Certainly hope I'm not.

But, believe me. It happens. Even where it shouldn't.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
As I said on the Bunker today

My Catholic and Southern Baptist friends and extended family stood by me while my parents and siblings who are Scientologists turned their backs on me. So personally, idgaf how you feel about religion but you can eat it if you want to compare Catholics/Christians to Scientologists.

Sorry about your parents and siblings - that bites. We've experienced it in our immediate family too. We've also seen catholics/christians do the same when it's their church/pastor/ecclesiastical leader who's under the microscope for misconduct.

Blanky
 

Gib

Crusader
I get what you are saying and I have not disagreed with you.
It's a fun thing to say, but it misses the point by a mile and a half. :unsure:
I was trying to say that it's not about clean hands. It goes without saying why DM doesn't want to be deposed. No one who is being sued for something ever wants to be deposed, least of all when it's true.

I missed the point by a mile and a half. You scared me there Adam, I thought you were gonna say I missed it by 5 miles, so I did better than expected. :laugh:

Anyways, somebody around this joint mentioned beer, so I'm having one, well I guess I'm on my third, no maybe 5th, I lost track, no matter, theres plenty in the esky. And speaking of Adam, I'm not drinking Samuel Adams beer.

I Know what you are saying. I tend to post like I'm talking to a lurker or a scientologist. My bad, I should prefix more.

Anyways, I'm off to Armadillo Williy's. :thumbsup:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...position-Order&p=923180&viewfull=1#post923180
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
I missed the point by a mile and a half. You scared me there Adam, I thought you were gonna say I missed it by 5 miles, so I did better than expected. :laugh:

Anyways, somebody around this joint mentioned beer, so I'm having one, well I guess I'm on my third, no maybe 5th, I lost track, no matter, theres plenty in the esky. And speaking of Adam, I'm not drinking Samuel Adams beer.


I could use a few good beers or 20!

I was actually going to be completely ridiculous and go for some weird fraction like .8359 miles just to emphasize my sarcasm. I shouldn't have said "the point" anyway, I should have said you missed "my point" [But that just sounded wrong. :p]. What "the point" is, is anyone's guess.
 

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
Here's my bit:

IANAL, but I'll try to give a recap as best I can.

The whole thing started off with one of the judges asking how to pronounce David Miscavige's name.


First Wallace Jefferson stood up to talk. He started off laying the general stuff: this is a dispute between the Church of Scientology and Marty and Monique Rathbun that has been going on for years. Originally it was Marty who started a campaign against the Church by posting up his blog, etc. Monique made herself a part of the conflict between Scientology and Marty by posting things on Facebook. He brought everything up to date, saying that Monique has been seeking a deposition from Miscavige since the beginning. Then reiterated the idea that CSI is the responsible party and if it were found to have committed wrong-doing, which he assures the court won't be the case, that CSI has the means and resources to make good on such a judgement. That in light of the fact that David Miscavige didn't have a role in the activities and that he has never been to Texas to perform any of these activities, this becomes Monique seeking an apex deposition. Now, he says, Monique and her legal team have had the chance to depose many members of RTC and CSI and that in none of their depositions did they ask pointed questions about David Miscavige's involvement or lack thereof in these activities taking place in Texas. This shows a lack of good faith on there part, he says, and that Miscavige shouldn't be pulled away from his "ecclesiastical mission" just to satisfy their desire to depose him. Then he said that a Texas court has no jurisdiction over David Miscavige and that if Monique wants to sue him she needs to do in California and there will be no argument over jurisdiction.



One of the judges (the female one and forgive me I know none of their names) said that she thought one of the primary questions here was whether or not by submitting to a deposition, is the person really also submitting to jurisdiction? Wallace Jefferson didn't seem to have a good answer for that, because that's when he turned the argument into the idea that Monique's team had ample opportunity to question intermediaries about Miscavige's activities or lack thereof in relation to this case, but they did not ask those questions. he says they did not ask those questions because they didn't want a negative answer. Another judge then asked, would it change things if--hypothetically--all other defendants were dropped from the lawsuit and Miscavige was the sole defendant. I'm not sure why he asked that or what the implication was--it seemed like a strange question to my untrained ear. But Wallace's response was again, no it wouldn't change things. That's when he said in that case Monique should sue David Miscavige in California. Finally the same judge asked did Waldrip get to review all of the depositions, and Wallace seemed to get oddly defensive at the question. Answering (and obviously all of this is paraphrased to the best of my ability) that no, but even if he did it would still show that Miscavige should not be deposed and that Monique failed to show food fail in her questioning of the intermediaries being deposed.


Leslie stepped up and started her argument out by saying that in the history of TX law no court has ever applied the apex deposition rule to a named defendant in a lawsuit. Then she asked how could anyone else know David Miscavige's actions with relation to this case better than Miscavige himself. She then said, if David Miscavige had come to Texas himself and taken pictures himself and so on, that they wouldn't be in the appeals court at all and there'd be no question about deposing Dear Leader--I mean Shorty McFistToCuffs. Instead he used agents to do the work for him and now there is an argument over jurisdiction. Everyone in the court room was calling that the "agency argument". She said that basically, whether Misavige had done the activities or he used someone else to do it, it doesn't change the fact that he should be deposed for his own actions. One of the judges then asked if she asked the intermediaries being deposed about David Miscavige's actions and additionally, if they didn't have the information she was looking for, then did she ask who she should be asking? Leslie then brought up the point about Warren McShane admitting to knowing little about what Miscavige was doing and pointed out that David Miscavige's office is not staffed and no one really knows what he's up to at all--except for Miscavige of course.


One of the judge's then asks about her theory, saying that is she assuming just because of Miscavige's authority, is Monique's team assuming that he knows what is going on? Leslie's response was that they have evidence which indicates that Miscavige was aware of what was going on. She also pointed out that in prior cases the appeals court did not question whether or not the trial judge had ruled correctly when he ordered a deposition. As it should be in this case, the court should go into this assuming that Waldrip's ruling that Miscavige should be deposed was correct in the first place.


After that Leslie went into the discovery process and basically said that despite their extreme efforts to pursue written discovery that the defendants failed to provide any documentation at all in, in fact, claimed it did not exist. Which Leslie said that she and her team have ample evidence that contraindicates that claim. That Scientology does keep detailed records and reams of paper related to all operations, so the evidence must exist somewhere. She then went on to say that they had requested the deposition of Miscavige after Scientology's team was uncooperative in discovery, basically being left with the idea that no one knows anything except for Miscavige. One of the judges returned to the apex idea, asking if she thought that Waldrip in his ruling was trying to follow the apex deposition rule. Leslie responded that even though Waldrip did not consider this an apex deposition that he felt that the rule would have been satisfied anyway. Then one of the judges asked again, why Leslie thought Waldrip didn't review all of the intermediary depositions before ruling. Leslie basically implied that he didn't need to because there had been ample information shared over the months that this trial has been going on. Then when it came down to the wire the proceedings were interrupted by an anti-SLAPP motion which took precedence because of the time constraint, and that was why Waldrip didn't have time to review all the intermediary depositions. She then said that she thought he had read all of the depositions, but hadn't had time to sort through Scientology's numerous objections. Which then made clear to my why Wallace had acted defensive about the question when he was asked--he knew it was his team's fault that Waldrip made a decision.


Then one of the judge's asked Leslie about the directed tort rule, and the alter ego rule. Do these apply to the case. That's when Leslie emphasized the "agency argument"--that Miscavige had used agents to act on his behalf in Texas which is basically the same thing as if he had carried out the actions himself. Then one of the judges asked about Leslie's assertion that DM was reaping personal benefit from these activities. Leslie answered by saying that she felt it was more of a psychological benefit in the satisfaction he felt from his vindictive activities, she wasn't trying to say that he was receiving monetary benefit.


Wallace came back up and complained that Monique's team keeps changing their argument that they were "all over the map" with their jurisdiction argument: first they said it was general jurisdiction because Miscavige had been in Dallas for the opening of a church; then it was alter ego; now they are arguing jurisdiction by agency. Then he repeated his argument that Monique's team had the opportunity to question intermediaries about Miscavige's involvement in other depositions, but they failed to do so. Then one of the judges asked how Wallace would direct the court in their review of the case and Wallace replied, "Abuse of discretion." Then said that the court should deny the deposition because Monique's request to depose Micavige was not in good faith. He also got in a bit about how there were declarations from former church officials that Monique's team relied on to support their request to depose Miscavige, but that those declarations were out of date and that the church was entirely different than it was back in the days of those people. That the church has taken a whole new turn and that those people in those declarations have no idea what is going on today.


The whole thing was 45 minutes. I couldn't tell whether or not the judges were leaning one way or the other by the time they left. I also thought they'd have more questions. I felt like the judges had a lot more questions for Leslie than they did Wallace.


There's the best I could do. I'm sure Tony will have input from others, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here! It's tough to decipher some things with my untrained ears.


Bumping this thread because...

While there is no official deadline within which the 3-judge Appellate Panel must generate their decision, it is worth noting that the hearing in this matter took place 60 days ago today.

The appealed issue - whether or not Judge Waldrip was correct to Order that David Miscavige be deposed - isn't an extraordinary or complex legal issue (no matter what DM thinks, heh) so it's reasonable to think the Appellate Panel's decision will come soon.

Popcorn, anyone?

JB
 

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
Indeed

Legal action seems to be popping up everywhere with $cientology/NarCONon but you know that this one upsets Captain Dave most of all.

:happydance:

(My bold above.)

Exactly so, Tetloj. :thumbsup:
What makes this even funnier is that Judge Waldrip's Order only says that DM must submit to a severely limited deposition -- questions about jurisdiction + jurisdiction-related issues only.
What will DM do if/when he's Ordered to testify @ a full deposition? :lol:

My guess?
This Appellate Panel will rule that Judge Waldrip's Order is perfectly legal/correct...and TeamDM+RTC will promptly appeal to the TX Supreme Court.

JB
 
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