Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

[Lurker5]

Better Call Saul . . .

 

[JustSheila]

Okay - TIME OUT!

YOU! LONESTAR! Take five minutes out for a bad joke.

YOU! UDARNIK! Penalty for reading TONE into a written post. On the bench with ya.

YOU! VEDA! Penalty for making a play that puzzled everyone.

Now - Udarnik, after your time out, can you please tell us which groups you're referring to?

/derail of derail of derail of derail

 

[Lone Star]

Okay - TIME OUT!

YOU! LONESTAR! Take five minutes out for a bad joke.

YOU! UDARNIK! Penalty for reading TONE into a written post. On the bench with ya.

YOU! VEDA! Penalty for making a play that puzzled everyone.

Now - Udarnik, after your time out, can you please tell us which groups you're referring to?

/derail of derail of derail of derail

Thanks to both Veda and you I have come to realize I have a joking problem. It's good to have self-appointed referees and cops. Really. They provide a valuable service in regulating the forum.

I pledge to knock off the humor. Thanks again you wonderful ladies, Sheila and Veda!

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Please list the groups it spawned.

There was also Gregory Mitchell and Irene Mumford's Dianasis. I didn't have any contact with it but I did know a couple of people who had and thought well of it.

Here's some background (I'll try and improve on this);

http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-10.html

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

In addition, there was Ulrich Kramer's Mind Walking, though I think Ulrich was basically a Ron's Org "graduate" rather than one from the AACs. I've been told but cannot confirm that he was the author of the L. Kin books in the 1990s.

 

[JustSheila]

Thanks to both Veda and you I have come to realize I have a joking problem. It's good to have self-appointed referees and cops. Really. They provide a valuable service in regulating the forum.

I pledge to knock off the humor. Thanks again you wonderful ladies, Sheila and Veda!

Self-appointed referees don't usually have the best training, qualification or judgement, either.

Sometimes it's just fun to blow the whistle.

 

[programmer_guy]

You still seem to have a problem. Unfortunately, it's nothing that I can help you with.

Back to the question: I am curious as to the spawned variants or schools.

The only one that comes to mind is Meta Psychology.

The only one that I had heard of, way back in 1970s when I was a staffer, was Dianology.
It was interesting to me that the young lady, at that time, got involved in Dianology before she finally got involved in CofS at the Riverside Mission. (That is reverse of most stories that I have read about.)

 

[degraded being]

.
.
Wouldn't Terril know about the various groups that were/are around?

 

[Terril park]

I was thinking specifically of the Theta International Movement or the Church of the New Civilization. I'd be highly curious to know how many of those orgs got subsumed into other FZ organizations as Mayo went into hiding. But you seem to be taking the position it died and had no influence on the FZ we see today. So are you arguing none of the auditors at the AAC went on to other FZ areas? I'm operating on the assumption that at least some of the other FZ auditors still in action are former AAC clients or auditors. It's a really good bet. You've got evidence to the contrary?

This is an area that's not been well explored.

Are you going to pull out Ron's Orgs as your whipping boy again? They don't seem to be that active outside Europe. Why is it you constantly fixate on them? I've seen their OT chart what? 10, 20 times on your posts on ESMB? There's more to the FZ than Ron's orgs.

The FZ is dangerous wherever it maintains Laffy's ridiculous notions on the Purif, psychiatry, and medicine in general. It's also dangerous when it distracts people who need help from getting real help. Bringing its full story to light may help some UTR exes avoid getting trapped in the mindset far longer than they need to be.

I'd not heard of Theta International movement until now. It looks like its merely a name change possibly done in an effort to escape litigation on
copyright and trademarks, see URL below. Also there is the 1992 scientology enemies list in which many groups are probably splinters
from CO$, example:-

"ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL CLEARING CONSULTANTS"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Ability_Center

http://www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/enemy_list.html


Its unlikely that one could distinguish an offshoot from AACs to
an offshoot of CO$. Mayo was the senior tech person in CO$, his
wife Julie had previously held a very high tech position working
with Hubbard.

http://www.freezone.de/english/reports/e_jmayo.htm

In other words the Mayo's were very "standard". A look at the enemies list shows that this "standardness" led to some 30-35 other AAC's
being set up.

Metapsychology and TIR could be considered an offshoot of
the AACs and Mayo helped Gerbode with this project. This is
probably the only offshoot of AACs.

But then you wouldn't worry about him being as he's a qualified
medical doctor and qualified psychiatrist.

You are correct in your assumption that many of the auditors in
the AACs carried on auditing. I know several of them. I believe many were scared into leaving this field. Even today, the day after Sundance, many
people are somewhat paranoid about any personal info being exposed.

Cats Squirrel raised the possibility that Irene Mumford was an offshoot
of AACs. This isn't really so. She had entered CO$ in 1957 and studied
just about all the available tech. Declared SP in 1982 she associated
with the East Grinstead branch of AACs, but then went on to explore
ideas she had re GPMs and formed Dianesis. Even Rons Orgs had a good relationship with the AACs at least for a short while but didn't like the
what to them seemed lax attention to ethics.


http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-10.html

 

[Terril park]

In addition, there was Ulrich Kramer's Mind Walking, though I think Ulrich was basically a Ron's Org "graduate" rather than one from the AACs. I've been told but cannot confirm that he was the author of the L. Kin books in the 1990s.

He and CBR researched together and came up with Excal.

http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Rons_Org

 

[JustSheila]

EST is the only group comes to mind when thinking of 80s spinoff splinter groups from Scientology.

They later changed their name to "The Forum."

The est Standard Training program consisted of two weekend-long workshops with evening sessions on the intervening weekdays, as well as each Wednesday night. Workshops generally involved about two hundred participants and were led by a trainer designated by Erhard and several assistants. <snip> Trainers confronted participants one-on-one and challenged them to be themselves rather than to play a role that had been imposed on them by the past.[SUP][10][/SUP] Jonathan D. Moreno observed that “participants might have been surprised how both physically and emotionally challenging and how philosophical the training was.” [SUP][10][/SUP] He writes that the critical part of the training was freeing oneself from the past, which was accomplished by 'experiencing' one's recurrent patterns and problems rather than repeating them. The word ‘experience' was used to mean a process of fully experiencing the pointless repetition of old, burdensome behaviors so as to not be run by them.[SUP][10][/SUP] The seminar aimed to enable participants to shift their contextual state of mind around which their life was organized from the attempt to get satisfaction or to survive, to an experience of actually being satisfied and experiencing oneself as whole and complete in the present moment. The est training offered people the opportunity to free themselves from the past, rather than living a life enmeshed by their past.[SUP][12][/SUP]Participants agreed to follow the ground rules which included not wearing watches, not talking until called upon, not eating at or leaving their seats to go to the bathroom except during breaks separated by many hours.[SUP][13][/SUP] These classroom agreements provided a rigorous setting whereby people’s ordinary ways to escape confronting their experience of themselves were eliminated.[SUP][1][/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

Pretty weird stuff. From a former member:

I was in a cult called the Forum -- formerly known as est -- that presents itself as a spiritually and psychologically neutral "human potential" seminar. The Forum is offered by a company called Werner Erhard and Associates, led by Werner Erhard -- real name Jack Rosenberg -- a shady self-made human potential guru with a criminal record. The scandal-plagued Hunger Project is another est/Forum spinoff. Other fronts include the Education Project, Transformational Technologies, and others.


Although it has been toned down over the years in response to bad press, the Forum is an extremely intense, sometimes abusive indoctrination session, comprising four days over two consecutive weekends, from nine in the morning to often past midnight, with one meal break all day. Afterwards, participants are pressured to enroll in weekly seminars and advanced courses, including the infamous "six-day" course that takes place at a secluded encampment in the woods of upstate New York. The Forum costs over six hundred dollars, the weekly seminars typically one hundred, and the six-day nearly two thousand. Even more "advanced" courses are available, costing thousands. Intense pressure is put on participants not only to continue to spend money on seminars, but to recruit friends and co-workers.

Besides being, substantively, little more than new-age pop-psychology mumbo jumbo, the Forum seminar itself is, from a mental health standpoint, reckless and destructive. Forum leaders employ confrontational and abusive tactics, group hypnosis, and regression exercises, all in a completely closed environment with participants that have not had enough food or sleep. The Forum leaders have no mental health training, except in the purposely destructive techniques taught to them by Erhard.


Moreover, for many of the participants, though certainly not all, 1) the Forum, 2) the advanced courses that come after it, and 3) the group of people associated with it constitute a cult environment. In my experience, the Forum was indeed a cult, closely following the model outlined by Dr. Martin. In fact, disregarding the particular nonsense that makes up its teachings, the dynamics of the people around the Forum are hard to distinguish from those of the rest of the long list of religious, political, commercial, or other cults.

http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/secul/landmark/forum.html

 

[Enthetan]

Self-appointed referees don't usually have the best training, qualification or judgement, either.

Sometimes it's just fun to blow the whistle.

I was going to post a certain youtube.

Then I thought better of the idea.

ADDING: on second thought, why not

[video=youtube;uTPtWjWyBrI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTPtWjWyBrI[/video]

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

He and CBR researched together and came up with Excal.

http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Rons_Org

Interesting. Here's his current site, he seems to have changed tack since then;

http://mindwalking.de/en/home/

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

EST is the only group comes to mind when thinking of 80s spinoff splinter groups from Scientology.

They later changed their name to "The Forum."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

Pretty weird stuff. From a former member:

http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/secul/landmark/forum.html

Yeah, looks dodgy at least in its current form. I once read Luke Rhinehart's account of an est training in New York, and found it fascinating (this was before I had any real contact with scientology). It was the first time I encountered the concept that You Create Your Own Reality.

The jury's still out on that one as far as I'm concerned, though IMO Werner 's take on it is more promising than LRH's; it's about how you choose a context for what happens to you rather than being personally responsible for the actual events which befall you (cue Scns saying "you pulled it in").

I think est was 70s rather than 80s btw. Stewart Emery, an est trainer originally from Australia, headed up the est organisation at one point but after a disagreement over philosophy with Werner (I believe it was the "you create your own reality" thing, though I may be wrong), he went on to form his own organisation called Actualizations.

I''ve got a book of his somewhere titled "Actualizations - You Don't Have To Rehearse To Be Yourself"; it's worth a read. Here's his site;

http://www.stewartemery.com/

 

[Terril park]

Regarding the conversation on the Type III thread - I am now swinging in the direction of suicide for Flo Barnett. Even IF it wasn't, there was a previous attempt and no indication that she was referred to a professional.

This is an open invitation for:

refutations of that assumption (WITH SUPPORTING DATA).

direct recollections of the AAC

any documentation for who / how many people went to the AAC

any other records of the AAC.


As I said before, I'm not interested in pummeling Mayo, especially after all he went through. I am interested, however, in looking at the full and true record of the AAC - that is a subject best not avoided Kha Khan style. That group spawned several indie variants or schools, and I consider all of them potentially dangerous.

I've posted a bit on this and if you want more, ask for specifics and I'll
try and obtain them.

It seems your main grievance is that Flo did not have medical oversight.

It was failed medical intervention that it seems bought her to a suicidal state. Left her IIRC partially paralyzed and with lost memory. And I don't see that murder can be ruled out iether.

No blame. I have no idea if other medical intervention would work
better.

At the AACs Sarge Gerbode a qualified psychaitrist was one of the auditors working there, and a highly trained class VI auditor.

Skilled medical advice was available! If needed. And she was
probably connected with previous medical doctors.

Flo did the bridge to OT 5 in CO$. That is almost the complete bridge.

Note that the Scn theory of PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect.

Flo's son in law was the most awful person to be connected with.

Its clear she felt CO$ could no longer help her. So she went to
the AAC.

It was widely considered that Mayo delivered the best tech and
gave the best results.

CO$ has for a long time delivered bad and even reverse or
black tech. per reports. They have as main direction more money,
executive C/Sing, as opposed to enhancement.

You consider that spiritual existence is unavailable.

So I am the opposite.

I guess we can have conversation sometime inbetween
these ideas.


Julie delivered 5 or so hours of repair. Flo thought she felt better. But It seems more serious matters were at hand. Death or suicide.

I recomend you watch the video of this first AAC of David and Julie Mayo. Get a sense of them, from say 57 mins.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23073-Advanced-Ability-Center-Shiona-Fox-Ness

Careful not to fall in love with Julia.... difficult.

 

[Lurker5]

The book 'Outrageous Betrayal' is about Erhard . . . . As bad a scno/co$/lrh, just not as successful - ahem - as lrh at enslavement.

 

[Udarnik]

The book 'Outrageous Betrayal' is about Erhard . . . . As bad a scno/co$/lrh, just not as successful - ahem - as lrh at enslavement.

Oh, there's a connection to Erhard in here. I just haven't had time to construct a coherent post about it.

 

[Terril park]

I've posted a bit on this and if you want more, ask for specifics and I'll
try and obtain them.

It seems your main grievance is that Flo did not have medical oversight.

It was failed medical intervention that it seems bought her to a suicidal state. Left her IIRC partially paralyzed and with lost memory. And I don't see that murder can be ruled out iether.

No blame. I have no idea if other medical intervention would work
better.

At the AACs Sarge Gerbode a qualified psychaitrist was one of the auditors working there, and a highly trained class VI auditor.

Skilled medical advice was available! If needed. And she was
probably connected with previous medical doctors.

Flo did the bridge to OT 5 in CO$. That is almost the complete bridge.

Note that the Scn theory of PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect.

Flo's son in law was the most awful person to be connected with.

Its clear she felt CO$ could no longer help her. So she went to
the AAC.

It was widely considered that Mayo delivered the best tech and
gave the best results.

CO$ has for a long time delivered bad and even reverse or
black tech. per reports. They have as main direction more money,
executive C/Sing, as opposed to enhancement.

You consider that spiritual existence is unavailable.

So I am the opposite.

I guess we can have conversation sometime inbetween
these ideas.


Julie delivered 5 or so hours of repair. Flo thought she felt better. But It seems more serious matters were at hand. Death or suicide.

I recomend you watch the video of this first AAC of David and Julie Mayo. Get a sense of them, from say 57 mins.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23073-Advanced-Ability-Center-Shiona-Fox-Ness

Careful not to fall in love with Julia.... difficult.

Note I commented that "PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect. " I should have said that PTS is an example of stress which is probably easier to understand. Its generally considered in medical circles that stress can be a cause for disease and psychosis.

The stress that is associated with being in CO$ has had thousands and thousands of web pages and testimonies and most here are familiar with them. Note however that by and large these stressful situations are not usually found in the FZ.

The CO$ in fact mostly practices reverse or black scientology. The
role is not to provide service to the client, but that the client must serve the organisation. Note that senior policy is "deliver what you promise". another important policy is Service Pl 29 Oct 1959

The watchword is SERVICE.

"I don't care how many rules you break if they're
broken to give unselfish service to one another and
the public. We live for service not for rules."


FIRST POLICY ( march 1950)

"MAINTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH THE ENVIRONMENT
AND THE PUBLIC"

These are all used reversely by CO$. This in fact undermines any
good that may be delivered by the tech, and in fact makes such
good delivery impossible. As Mayo said towards the end of the video
of his AAC, scientology delivered without ARC won't work. Flag
supposedly from CO$ PR " The friendliest place in the world " is by all
accounts the opposite.

One of the problems is "executive C/Sing" in other words not
working for the clients interest but for the executive or CO$ interest,
often to maximize income or plain incompetance. Then their is the blanket
executive C/Sing such as changing the parameters for declaring someone clear. This is very important if one is doing the bridge. I know 2 OT 5s
who have had to do 5 CCRDs [ the auditing action to determine if one is clear] They are no longer scientologists. Bea Kiddo has written at length on this issue here.

CO$ is run by a sociopath. The results then are what one would
expect.

 

[Free Being Me]

Note I commented that "PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect. " I should have said that PTS is an example of stress which is probably easier to understand. Its generally considered in medical circles that stress can be a cause for disease and psychosis.

The stress that is associated with being in CO$ has had thousands and thousands of web pages and testimonies and most here are familiar with them. Note however that by and large these stressful situations are not usually found in the FZ.

The CO$ in fact mostly practices reverse or black scientology. The
role is not to provide service to the client, but that the client must serve the organisation. Note that senior policy is "deliver what you promise". another important policy is Service Pl 29 Oct 1959

The watchword is SERVICE.

"I don't care how many rules you break if they're
broken to give unselfish service to one another and
the public. We live for service not for rules."


FIRST POLICY ( march 1950)

"MAINTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH THE ENVIRONMENT
AND THE PUBLIC"

These are all used reversely by CO$. This in fact undermines any
good that may be delivered by the tech, and in fact makes such
good delivery impossible. As Mayo said towards the end of the video
of his AAC, scientology delivered without ARC won't work. Flag
supposedly from CO$ PR " The friendliest place in the world " is by all
accounts the opposite.

One of the problems is "executive C/Sing" in other words not
working for the clients interest but for the executive or CO$ interest,
often to maximize income or plain incompetance. Then their is the blanket
executive C/Sing such as changing the parameters for declaring someone clear. This is very important if one is doing the bridge. I know 2 OT 5s
who have had to do 5 CCRDs [ the auditing action to determine if one is clear] They are no longer scientologists. Bea Kiddo has written at length on this issue here.

CO$ is run by a sociopath. The results then are what one would
expect.

Somehow I think the medical world in general is little concerned with Elcon's fabricated cultist labels. Trying to tie in cult-speak/think as a form of legitimacy with medicine (or psychology) is misleading.

$cientology is $cientology whether in or out of the so called cherch, designed by a sociopath (Elcon), still being run by a sociopath (Slappy) with subsequent gurus here and there putting their spin on it for followers.

Scio's in the cherch write success stories because they are having "wins."
Scio's out of the cherch write success stories because they are having "wins."

$cio's in the cherch have "the tehk."
$cio's out of the cherch have "the tehk."

$cio's in the cherch make outrageous claims that make for some lulzy reading.
$cio's out of the cherch make outrageous claims that make for some lulzy reading.

$cio's in the cherch rave about Elcon.
$cio's out of the church rave about Elcon.

$cio's in the cherch claim no one is damaged by Elcon's tehk.
$cio's out of the cherch claim no one is damaged by Elcon's tehk.

Anyone see a pattern? lol.

 

[AnonyMary]

Regarding the conversation on the Type III thread - I am now swinging in the direction of suicide for Flo Barnett. Even IF it wasn't, there was a previous attempt and no indication that she was referred to a professional.

This is an open invitation for:

refutations of that assumption (WITH SUPPORTING DATA).

direct recollections of the AAC

any documentation for who / how many people went to the AAC

any other records of the AAC.


As I said before, I'm not interested in pummeling Mayo, especially after all he went through. I am interested, however, in looking at the full and true record of the AAC - that is a subject best not avoided Kha Khan style. That group spawned several indie variants or schools, and I consider all of them potentially dangerous.

Regarding Flo Barnett comment above, very few if anyone would know if she was or was not referred to a medical professional after she left the hospital when she was treated for the brain aneurism she suffered. Certainly her doctors at the hospital referred her to medical aftercare, as all hospitals do before a sick patient is discharged. Even if others at the ACC did or did not suggest that she get continued medical treatment ( and it's pure speculation or rumor from what I see if, in fact, anyone has stated that she went back to get services there ) she would have already been made aware of her options upon discharge at the hospital. To presume ACC had anything to do with her decisions to obtain or not any followup care is not fair because there is a sufficient lack of information to support any such matter was addressed.

Regarding the last comment, as noted in bold above, which specific groups were spawned from ACC?

Wouldn't they all be squirrel groups just like those spawned from Scientology? Who is to say they spawned from ACC technical wise and not from Scientology, tech wise?

That they, and Scientology itself, are "all dangerous" is a relative term but also a generalized one. I think you owe it to us here to be more specific in which groups you are referring to, since you asked the questions, raised the issue and made the comment.