“Our Goal Is To Make Marty’s Life A Living Hell”

[degraded being]

It is still quite challenging navigating through the black and white mentality of everything, something that seems very prevalent on the internet as well. I don't believe words like right and wrong, good and bad, black and white ... absolute terms have much reality in the real world. I say something positive about Marty and I am a Marty promoter and a cool-aide drinker. Marty is no angel, yet he is not the devil, he has qualities I don't like, and others I very much respect and admire. I don't believe all people still in Scientology are bad or evil, neither do I believe those good people still in understand what is truly going on, either through data compartmentalization, or through personal blindness. I wonder if the world might not more accurately and productively be viewed in shades of grey, predominately good grey, or predominantly bad grey.

The context is Marty. That's Hubbard-promoting Marty. And Marty supports Hubbard, who thought that it was OK to destroy people's lives if they didn't agree with him sufficiently. That is the context. You can say you don't believe in black and white and argue about what is good/bad, but remember the context here. You say that you are (called) a Marty promoter and a Koolaid drinker if you say you something postive about Marty. That's because Marty is a Koolaid drinker. The context for that is L. Ron Hubbard, cult leader, soul hacker, destroyer of lives. That's who Marty supports. And any kind of support for that is not gong to look good in that context. Are you really that naive about the English language and how it is used, including the history and present time agendas of people talking about these things? I'm not surprised Marty has apologised to you in particular when with others, it seems that to apologise might violate KSW.

You said:
:I wonder if the world might not more accurately and productively be viewed in shades of grey, predominately good grey, or predominantly bad grey."

How "grey" was Marty's apology to you?

 

[Free to shine]

Point taken Veda and agreed.

I think the manner of righting past wrongs has a lot to do with the basic integrity of a person and their willingness to really work at finding and changing the causes of their original critical thinking shutdown. Marty has a made himself a large and very public platform to work from and the reinforcement of the skewed thinking is not going to make this a fast change of viewpoint. I do tend to be an optimist though and the fact that at least some change has happened leaves the door open a crack for real change. He will never compare to Bent or David or the other heroes out there but we can still hope that the final walls will crack one day and the whole sorry truth will hit him in the teeth and bring more realisations and some sincere apologies and restitution.

 

[Smilla]

Apologies are easy when compared with restitution, which costs time and effort.

 

[degraded being]

I respond here a little cautiously and generously. This is a public forum, obviously viewed by OSA, I post openly with my real name. I am not interested in publishing my personal buttons or anyone elses.

I will not respond for Marty, not my right, not my place. He would not answer this question about me, and I don't have nor will I ask for his permission to discuss specifics about mutually deeply personal conversations.

But his apology to me was along the lines of improper sec checking, failing to forgive, "honest people have rights too", auditor code, unfair use of ethics, sec checking improperly, ethics interviews, etc. Policies on things like toughness, protecting the group, KSW, responsibility of leaders can easily be interpreted in brutal terms.

Most any document or work can be read, interpreted and acted on in a positive or negative manner. The Bible and Koran are perfect examples. I know people that used Scientology in a way, at least trying to help, but minimally benign and not evil and manipulative. Others, including the COS, use it in a political, amoral controlling manner including with the actual intent to harm and control.

Did he apologise as a person or as a scientologist?

 

[Free to shine]

Apologies are easy when compared with restitution, which costs time and effort.

Agreed, I am adding that to my post.

 

[degraded being]

LOL, I have no idea if you are man, woman or troll, but I kind of am getting to like you.

Not looking to convert you or anyone else to be a Marty fan or friend. If I may be so bold, Marty is not the easiest friendship I have, probably goes for both sides, but in a way that makes it unique and valuable to me. Few people need or look for more challenge in their lives.

A public image often is different to the personal identity, a public image tends to be more consistent because people seem to want and demand continuity. Any person coming out of Scio, change significantly. Trying to change or heal personally under such intense public scrutiny would be a hell I don't think I could survive.

Though I expect to be flamed for this, I believe from my friendship with him, his primary driving force is to help break the monster he helped create, to help end the abuse, and more privately, right wrongs he did. His time in the COS spanned decades, his time out and actively doing something is 2 years. Could or should he have done more? Perhaps. But look at what he has done. Look at what has been thrown at him. I could not do what he is doing, I don't know anyone else that could. It will be interesting to revisit this question in another year or two, that I believe will be a better judgment point.

What is the monster that he helped to create, which he know is helping to break, as his primary driving force (as you believe it.)

Is it the monster of Miscavige-as-competitor, who, if not kept in check might destroy Marty?
Is it the Monster of Miscagive-as-destroyer-of-scientology. Destroying this monster will ensure that the Hubbard Monster stays pure and can destroy anything it deems to be "non-survival" for the eight dynamics.?
The coginitive dissonance around here is becoming deafening.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Scientology? Uhhh, do the math.

I believe the guy is decompressing slowly...

Yeah, perhaps.

There is probably a mathematical formula on the rate of decompression or something. Wait....

I am just not sure if everyone agrees on what that formula means.

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST: Enetheta = Miscavology Church Squared.

COS SCIENTOLOGIST: Elron = Makemoremoney Ca-ching Squared

EX SCIENTOLOGIST: Everythingaboutscientologists = Makesme Cringe Squared ​

 

[degraded being]

OK. A lecture in infinity valued logic. Cool!

For scientology that can be infinitely logically evil.

 

[degraded being]

The 'shades of grey' thing doesn't work very well with things like:

Pregnant/Not pregnant
Married/Not married
Alive/dead
Male/female
Found guilty/found not guilty
Blind/not blind
Legal/illegal
Deaf/not deaf
etc etc

You can call it 'infinity valued logic' if you like, but it is cultic 'thought stopping' nonsense, being used to deflect reasonable criticism. Many things really are black and white.

Could "applying KSW / not applying KSW" be added to the list. A difficult one I know....

 

[Infinite]

. . . Though I expect to be flamed for this, I believe from my friendship with him, his primary driving force is to help break the monster he helped create, to help end the abuse, and more privately, right wrongs he did. His time in the COS spanned decades, his time out and actively doing something is 2 years. Could or should he have done more? Perhaps. But look at what he has done. Look at what has been thrown at him. I could not do what he is doing, I don't know anyone else that could. It will be interesting to revisit this question in another year or two, that I believe will be a better judgment point.

Marty didn't "help create" the monster. The Primary functions and processes of Scientology abuses and crimes were laid down by L Ron Hubbard in the 1950s. Marty and his mate Rinder were merely responsible for enacting those procedures. Others have suffered far more abuse than Marty and others have done far more than him. David Mayo and Bob Minton are great examples of that. While Marty may be helping generate some publicity, and his persistence in going at the wrong WHO and the wrong WHY is, perhaps, maybe, kinda forcing the cult to temper some of its policy application thanks to that publicity, the fact remains that Marty is treating the symptoms and not the cause. His apologies to some and not others appear to me to be more a strategic use of ARC than any genuine sense of remorse.

Adopting a "shades of grey" approach to dealing with a totalitarian movement amounts to appeasement. The day the M²&M² Show publicly abandons KSW will be my first glimpse of a grey that cannot otherwise be interpreted as anything but an acceptable truth.

 

[Smilla]

Faster decompression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGMoED8ORf4&feature=related

 

[Thrak]

What happened to the fake axioms?

 

[Free to shine]

An interesting comment from dear Alanzo on Marty's blog: (geez...)

Since the first day of this blog, I have gotten up in the morning, unshaven, hair smashed to one side of my head, with turgid morning breath, thinking my earliest waking thoughts. Those thoughts have almost always included, while scratching, “I wonder what Marty has on his blog today?”

And almost every morning there is something here that keeps me coming back.

Marty Rathbun, even with all the ways I disagree with him about L Ron Hubbard and Scientology, has the best Scientology blog on the Internet, hands down. No contest.

No doubt about it.

But something else has dawned on me lately. If Marty was still at his old post in the Church, he would be the one running some version of the SquirrelBusters to take out Scientology’s enemies. Marty, more than anyone else, knew *exactly* what he was in for when he set up this blog and started writing.

And yet he did it anyway.

Gerry Armstrong knew what he was in for, too, and he did it anyway. Not because he would gain personally from it at all. He knew he would sustain incoming injuries if he did what he did. But he did it anyway.

Gerry Armstrong did not do it for himself, he did it for others. Like Gerry, there are many people over the years who knew what they would get if they did what they did, and they did it anyway.

I’m beginning to see now.

Just like them, Marty knew exactly what he would get.

And he did it anyway.

Marty did not do it for himself. He did it for others.

It comes from a deep sense of duty to ones’ fellows. It recognizes that the welfare of the many in your society are more important than the welfare of your self. It does the right thing because it is the right thing to do, no matter the outcome to one’s self personally.

After 2 years now, I’m beginning to see it, Marty.

Thanks.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/bert-leahy-iii-and-casablanca-updates/#comments

 

[Emma]

An interesting comment from dear Alanzo on Marty's blog: (geez...)


http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/bert-leahy-iii-and-casablanca-updates/#comments

Good grief. I hope Zinj doesn't see that!

 

[Free to shine]

Good grief. I hope Zinj doesn't see that!

 

[Sindy]

I personally liked the comment. Ya know, I know people are pissed off at him. He owes apologies, etc. but he doesn't owe me one and I'll let him work out his relationships away from the public eye.

For me, personally, it does no good to stay pissed off at someone for doing crazy shit while in the cult when they clearly are not doing that anymore. I understand that those who have been fair gamed by him deserve some humility and restitution, etc. but that could be a long time coming. He appears pretty busy.

I know he has apologized to some and I know that he owes a lot more. Hell, I have people that owe me apologies in life too. I'm not sure I'll ever get them but, life goes on.

I guess where the grey area is for me is that I am not really pissed at Marty myself but I can understand where others are and don't deny the right.

I like what he is doing. It may not be popular to say but I think he is making a difference. I think a whole lot of other people are too. He's not the only one but certainly the media interest in this ridiculous C of S vs Marty circus is beneficial.

I think his actions are tipping the scales. He can go around and apologize (and should, I suppose) but at the end of the day, he is making up damage done.

I don't hold the same beliefs that he does but I am not going to hang the guy for continuing to like Hubbard and wanting to audit others if he helps take out the official church.

At some point, I'm going to leave the critic stuff behind myself and move on with life. I'm done with Scientology. If he and his Indies take it over, to be honest, I won't be bothered. I'm done.

 

[Sindy]

What happened to the fake axioms?

Yeah.

 

[ClamSource]

So ah, Marty once fair gamed and spread the cult's lies out of "a deep sense of duty to ones’ fellows" and now he does the reverse for the same reasons.

Someone once said the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Panda Termint]

Good grief. I hope Zinj doesn't see that!

I liked the commentary by Al and I DO hope Zinj sees it.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

For me, personally, it does no good to stay pissed off at someone for doing crazy shit while in the cult when they clearly are not doing that anymore. I understand that those who have been fair gamed by him deserve some humility and restitution, etc. but that could be a long time coming.

-snip-

I'm not pissed off at Marty. And like many, I hope for his eventual self-deprogramming from the Scientology mind-boggle. But, I cannot overlook Marty's dishonesty on behalf of L. Ron Hubbard, to protect the reputation of L. Ron Hubbard, and to protect the reputation of L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology. It's not an emotional issue, it just is. There's no point in pretending otherwise.

As for Alanzo, he's doing one of his Alanzo things: Praising Marty AND Gerry Armstrong, as if this will shift a few brain cells in Marty's head in a more rational direction, and perhaps it will but, while Marty likes to be praised, I doubt it will have much effect on Marty's views or actions.

One big difference is that Gerry Armstrong, whether one agrees with him or not about this or that, tells the truth as he knows it. I can't say the same about Marty. It's not just his Scientology cult programming, it's his continued willingness to knowingly lie to protect the reputation of his hero and "psychological&political" (more accurate than spiritual) leader, L. Ron Hubbard, and his continued willingness to remain silent on matters that would endanger both David Miscavige and himself.

Although the cult-programming and the dishonesty about its founder and his (pre-Miscavige) Scientology are intertwined, Marty has an extra dose of dishonesty. He sees himself as as master manipulator and handler. Well, I'm not interested in being handled by Marty Rathbun, and, while I appreciate that his blog is yet another avenue of communication (of sort) which, inevitably, will, at least for some, help loosen the glue of the Scientology mind-trap (while strengthening it for others), I do recognize that what he's doing is a very mixed bag.

I'm not interested in being "played" by the Bad Cop (Miscavige)/Good Cop (Rathbun) routine. Bad Scientologist vs Good Scientologist "tech" doesn't "work" on me. I'm a "resistive case."