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1972 French report on Scientology: can you ID anyone?

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
One other person I got identified is Catherine Layton - next to my mother Marion Barton in the choir. Also known as Catherine Barton - no relation.
Great, thanks. Only one choir member unidentified now. :)

I do know for sure that that isn't Donat Perbohner - I had a lot of dealings with him when I was there in 71 and he worked in the Guardians office. He did not have side burns like that and his hair was dark but not that curly or wavy.

How about the rest of his features? His height? Build? Voice?

Hair styles can be easily changed (look at my avatar!); eyes and noses not so much, and I doubt if he is wearing high heels or disguising his voice.

It's not Peter Buttery, and there are a lot of votes for Donat Perbohner and no other candidates.

Paul
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I remember about that time, maybe a year later going into the Chapel, a film crew was there and we were bussed in from London to look like religious church goers while the choir sang 'the factors' supposedly arranged by Hubbard and a camera crew filmed. It might even been songs of praise a sunday church service filmed in different churches for the BBC.

Looking round for the program I found this, very funny radio piss take. Unfortunately not the real thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePXcZUXF20Q
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I remember about that time, maybe a year later going into the Chapel, a film crew was there and we were bussed in from London to look like religious church goers while the choir sang 'the factors' supposedly arranged by Hubbard and a camera crew filmed. It might even been songs of praise a sunday church service filmed in different churches for the BBC.

Looking round for the program I found this, very funny radio piss take. Unfortunately not the real thing.

The factors were composed by Bobby Richards who rejoiced
in the title " Master of the Commodores Music". I liked this work
and was possibly was bused down from London. Or maybe I saw
it at the "Talk of the Town". Bobby arranged or possibly composed
music for The Seekers.



http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/popup-windows/scn_auditor082_hymn_of_asia.html
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
The factors were composed by Bobby Richards who rejoiced
in the title " Master of the Commodores Music". I liked this work
and was possibly was bused down from London. Or maybe I saw
it at the "Talk of the Town". Bobby arranged or possibly composed
music for The Seekers.



http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/popup-windows/scn_auditor082_hymn_of_asia.html

That Link even mentions Lyn Collins as being in the choir, thanks.

Master of the Commodore's Music, strange title.

''I was nothing to him and he was the world to me'' a very nice arrangement words that could mean a lot to those who thought a lot of a certain cult leader but had nothing flowed back in return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZBeJzik0OY
 

Albion

Patron with Honors
I remember about that time, maybe a year later going into the Chapel, a film crew was there and we were bussed in from London to look like religious church goers while the choir sang 'the factors' supposedly arranged by Hubbard and a camera crew filmed. It might even been songs of praise a sunday church service filmed in different churches for the BBC.

That's interesting, because somebody sent me word of a BBC programme presented by Joan Bakewell from a year or two after this French one, so that might be it. I've not yet had time to track it down and get permission to have a look at it -- it's in an archive behind a firewall -- but I'll to pursue that when I have more time.
 

Albion

Patron with Honors
Great, thanks. Only one choir member unidentified now. :)

Actually, I think I have suggestions for all five. From left to right: Lynn Collins, Doris Brown, Annie Watts, Catherine Layton (Barton) and Marion Barton.
 
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Karen#1

Gold Meritorious Patron
From Malcom Nieman who was in the clip ~~

Here’s the line up as far as I’ve been able to find out or remember.

1 David Gaiman
2 John Aczel
3 Blonde girl, I think she may have been Swedish and Eve rings a bell but I’m not sure.
4 Me (Malcolm Nieman) OMG 43 years ago.
5 Donat Perbona
6 Heidi (Then Keely, now Voss)

Choir from left, Lynn Collins, Doris Brown Annie Watts, next Unknown, Right side Marion Barton.

I’m not sure about the Reverend but the name Logun possibly Ian springs to mind but I could be wrong on that one.

I can remember being filmed at the rear of the manor for the French TV company and we had to say which post we had in French.

Mal
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
That's interesting, because somebody sent me word of a BBC programme presented by Joan Bakewell from a year or two after this French one, so that might be it. I've not yet had time to track it down and get permission to have a look at it -- it's in an archive behind a firewall -- but I'll to pursue that when I have more time.

I remember that being filmed, as they were on the Terrace filming a wedding (David Coventry's, I think) and I was in the Monkey Room in the Manor at the time. Treasury AOSHUK was in there along with the Finance Bureau GOWW (the Monkey Room, not the Terrace).

Thank You, Ron Sub title: Joan Bakewell Investigates Scientology . . . Broadcast: 30 Oct 1973

I don't see it on YouTube or Vimeo; hopefully you'll have better luck. :)

Paul
 

Albion

Patron with Honors
I remember that being filmed, as they were on the Terrace filming a wedding (David Coventry's, I think) and I was in the Monkey Room in the Manor at the time. Treasury AOSHUK was in there along with the Finance Bureau GOWW (the Monkey Room, not the Terrace).

Thank You, Ron Sub title: Joan Bakewell Investigates Scientology . . . Broadcast: 30 Oct 1973

I don't see it on YouTube or Vimeo; hopefully you'll have better luck. :)

Paul
That's the one: my contact pointed me towards an archive, which I'll try to contact when I have a minute -- and then we can start this exercise all over again! :)
 

Albion

Patron with Honors
Can I revive this thread briefly to get confirmation on the point raised by two separate contributors: that these church services were very much a public relations exercise for the media, academics or even potential recruits, to present a respectable front to outsiders; that they rarely, if ever, formed part of Scientology's genuine activities.

Is that right?

I can also tell you that these 'services' were and continue to be propaganda used to present a front to the media and new public, which FSMs are now encouraged to bring in new people to attend. That's the only way those services would be able to continue because scientologists rarely go to them unless they are bringing in a new person to introduce Scientology to them. The content of the service changed to discuss specific parts of Scientology that would presumably interest the public but I gather they continue to do them in such a way as to make it look like a church sermon.

For years it was so hard to get anyone to go to these things that they fell out of use but the powers that be above insisted they hold these services to keep the appearances up, religious cloaking as we call it.

I remember about that time, maybe a year later going into the Chapel, a film crew was there and we were bussed in from London to look like religious church goers while the choir sang 'the factors' supposedly arranged by Hubbard and a camera crew filmed. It might even been songs of praise a sunday church service filmed in different churches for the BBC.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Can I revive this thread briefly to get confirmation on the point raised by two separate contributors: that these church services were very much a public relations exercise for the media, academics or even potential recruits, to present a respectable front to outsiders; that they rarely, if ever, formed part of Scientology's genuine activities.

Is that right?

In my experience as staff (1979 - 2000) there would be a "push" from GO/OSA to increase the religious image every now and then. I have no idea what external factors they were trying combat with this but it seemed to be periodical rather than a concerted push over years at a time.

I became ordained as a Minister in 1986 during one such time. The then-A/G (Audrey Devlin) - maybe she'd been OSAfied by then, I don't remember - was very happy that I'd helped her with one of her programs by doing so. She wrote a letter for me a year later when I went to the USA introducing me as a Minister of the Church and explained that it made getting into the USA a lot easier.

Around 1999 there was another push on this - all the "sermons" were collated into a new Ministers Handbook and the orgs were ordered to hold regular Sunday Services and get the public in for them NO FAIL. This resulted in Sydney rounding up staff members' teenage kids and herding them into a "Service" - the ED had to report the numbers attending as a matter of importance to "up-lines."

That "Church Services" vanished periodically and then would re-appear or wearing of Ministerial garb would wax and wane (I well remember David Graham in the HGC in 1979 wearing a full set of robes sweeping out of his auditing room like a visiting Bishop :biggrin:) was simply part of the fabric of Magic Bullets that would appear as the "basic that's been dropped out" that did the rounds of harassing already-overworked staff with more irrelevant program targets to get done "or else." The religious image stuff in my experience always emanated from the GO/OSA part of the org board which is why I conjectured that it was driven by external factors rather than internal brain-farts by higher-ups.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
It is absolutely correct Albion. It was essentially a tool to try to aggrandize the 'Sunday service' from recognized churches and the religious and therefore tax exemption status. It never occurred in 1973-74 when I was in the org of 40 or 50 staff. It may have occurred before that in other orgs, I can't say. As best as I recall there was a push for it somewhere around that time or later in the 70's and even sporadic pushes for it in subsequent years of the 80s and 90s.

I first became aware of it when a number of lengthy policy issues were given to all the staff to read and which explained that although it didn't change any of the tech, it was purely a matter for legal and accountants purposes. From current perspective, I guess it was because scientology had lost its tax exempt status circa 1967 69? due to hubbard's inurement and scientology was trying to get it back by taking on any of the items on a checklist that the IRS may have had at that time to help it determine if a group had the qualifications to be a religious and therefore charitable tax exempt organization.

I don't believe, now, that religions should be allowed tax exempt status. In fact I am currently of the opinion that freedom of belief (religious or not) is totally fine and should be protected by the 1st amendment. The times have changed and religion needs to be removed and replaced with a more encompassing phrase such as "freedom of belief" and that a separate clause or amendment should address charitable status and practice and that that status needs to be adjudicated on a proven benefit(s) and a prohibition of individual or community oppression, harm or threat, which if extant would block the obtaining or be cause for immediate removal of a charitable status. Similar to the UK and Australia laws.

I believe' the FREE EXCERCISE [of religion] thereof,' of the 1st amendment is a critical stumbling block that may have simply been a inadequately worded amendment which took decades after 1791 to rear its ugly inadequacy. This is further compounded by the reality that just because some religions or churches have been seen to be charitable in the distant past or even in the present it is assumed that religions or churches are a priori charitable. Evidence shows many are not

To give the IRS some credit they do have some criteria to be adjudicated such as inurement and actually applying some significant proportion of income,to religious or charitable activities etc.. However, for reasons stated above I think the whole thing needs to be redone from the 1st amendment on down into the legislative, judicial and administrative aspects of the federal government.

But that takes a lot of public participation and dealing with ,the IRS and government representatives, in the current situation is likely a more effective and rapid remedial action.

I would love to see the tickets sold for the HBO showing and even the TV showings to have a website link(s) for viewers to go to to facilitate action towards removing the scientology hydra tax exemptions, and demand from their legislatures and department of justice to cut off the ability to fraudulently misuse good will.. For one example, since when is fraud not a crime (except of course in elections, lol) If I had the wherewithal I would print up such cards and pass them out to people exiting the movies houses and also place ads with appropriate links to the information Jeffrey Augustine has worked so diligently worked to provide us all at his scientology money project http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
As far as I remember, a Sunday morning Service was conducted in the Chapel at Saint Hill every single Sunday in the 70s and up to 1985 when I left. I assume it continued after. It was very sparsely attended, but it did take place regularly.

I was ordained as a minister around 1978 or so, but that was because of an international push in the Sea Org, started in the US to avoid the draft.

Paul
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
As far as I remember, a Sunday morning Service was conducted in the Chapel at Saint Hill every single Sunday in the 70s and up to 1985 when I left. I assume it continued after. It was very sparsely attended, but it did take place regularly.

I was ordained as a minister around 1978 or so, but that was because of an international push in the Sea Org, started in the US to avoid the draft.

Paul

Hmmm Paul....do you think it is possible that the purpose to avoid the draft was a Shore story/ ostensible reason? And that the real reason was to fight off the IRS which had removed their tax exemption in the 60s? If we consider what Denise Brennan had told us about the religious scholar opinions project this might also contribute to the real reason. Are you able to search her work on that subject to see what she said?
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Hmmm Paul....do you think it is possible that the purpose to avoid the draft was a Shore story/ ostensible reason? And that the real reason was to fight off the IRS which had removed their tax exemption in the 60s? If we consider what Denise Brennan had told us about the religious scholar opinions project this might also contribute to the real reason. Are you able to search her work on that subject to see what she said?

I think it military obligations was a big deal, most staff were young and draftable, having staff leave for a few years would have been annoying. There's also the fact that they might forget their zealous ways or actually be killed. There is national service in many European countries and annual service duty in Israel and Switzerland. This would be a large loss of man hours of desperate work trying to clear the planet.
 

Albion

Patron with Honors
As far as I remember, a Sunday morning Service was conducted in the Chapel at Saint Hill every single Sunday in the 70s and up to 1985 when I left. I assume it continued after. It was very sparsely attended, but it did take place regularly.

I was ordained as a minister around 1978 or so, but that was because of an international push in the Sea Org, started in the US to avoid the draft.

Paul

Thanks Paul,

So are you suggesting that it wasn't entirely for PR purposes: that some Scientologists might have taken it perfectly seriously?

What sense did you get of other people's attitude to the services, particularly the more senior staff? What was your feeling about it?

If it is too simplistic to dismiss as a PR exercise do please tell me.

PS Have you added a new photo to your avatar: looking very suave!

:)
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Albion.. This copied post by VEDA today contains the information about the policies that I mentioned were required reading circa 1974.

I wonder if anyone can dig up those exact PL's

"
... While organized Scientology today parades out various scholars that say they are "religious," I can tell you that the scholar program was started in the Guardian's Office and I worked on it as early as 1974.

The entire intention behind the acquisition and use of such religious and legal scholars was to create and develop evidence to support the religious cloaking that would be used in courts and elsewhere when needed.

At no point were the scholars briefed on either the real controls of the organization of the real reason why religious cloaking was developed...

Religious cloaking was intentionally used to help organized Scientology make money and avoid compliance with myriad laws that would otherwise apply if it were not so considered.

The use of scholars to say Scientology was a religion or organized Scientology was a religious organization was carefully planned and executed to forward the cover of religious cloaking...


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ng-challenged-in-COURT!&p=1027634#post1027634 it is post #36 and the Brennan document is at http://www.lermanet.com/reference/brennan-dec.pdf
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Albion.. This copied post by VEDA today contains the information about the policies that I mentioned were required reading circa 1974.

I wonder if anyone can dig up those exact PL's

"
... While organized Scientology today parades out various scholars that say they are "religious," I can tell you that the scholar program was started in the Guardian's Office and I worked on it as early as 1974.

The entire intention behind the acquisition and use of such religious and legal scholars was to create and develop evidence to support the religious cloaking that would be used in courts and elsewhere when needed.

At no point were the scholars briefed on either the real controls of the organization of the real reason why religious cloaking was developed...

Religious cloaking was intentionally used to help organized Scientology make money and avoid compliance with myriad laws that would otherwise apply if it were not so considered.

The use of scholars to say Scientology was a religion or organized Scientology was a religious organization was carefully planned and executed to forward the cover of religious cloaking...


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ng-challenged-in-COURT!&p=1027634#post1027634 it is post #36 and the Brennan document is at http://www.lermanet.com/reference/brennan-dec.pdf

I believe many are listed in this Full Hat course pack, an exhibit from the US District Court, which can be found here

GUARDIAN ORDER
GO 1314 9 September 1974
Info Bureau only
CONFIDENTIAL
INTELLIGENCE COURSE
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/infohat.htm

One can get more info on the GO activities here:
Scientology's Secret Service
2. The Guardian Office (1966-83)
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/gohist.htm
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Thanks Paul,

So are you suggesting that it wasn't entirely for PR purposes: that some Scientologists might have taken it perfectly seriously?

What sense did you get of other people's attitude to the services, particularly the more senior staff? What was your feeling about it?

If it is too simplistic to dismiss as a PR exercise do please tell me.

PS Have you added a new photo to your avatar: looking very suave!

:)

I don't think anyone took the Sunday Service seriously except for complete newbies or never-ins. Everyone else knew it was just a PR/Legal stunt: regular Scios knew that the "real" services provided by the CofS that people did value were the usual training and auditing services, although the ceremonies like the marriage ones and funeral ones were generally accepted and taken at face value.

Thank you for the avatar comment.

Paul
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hmmm Paul....do you think it is possible that the purpose to avoid the draft was a Shore story/ ostensible reason?

No. Escaping the draft would not be an acceptable "shore story" for the Establishment, although it would be fine with anyone eligible for drafting!

And that the real reason was to fight off the IRS which had removed their tax exemption in the 60s? If we consider what Denise Brennan had told us about the religious scholar opinions project this might also contribute to the real reason. Are you able to search her work on that subject to see what she said?

I have no better ability to search Brennan's work than anyone else: I don't have a secret Brennan database or something. :). On this, I'm not interested in putting in the work.

Paul
 
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