1st Hand LRH Stories: Marty is Terrified of ESMB

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Originally Posted by Ladybird
Oh Really??? I think the majority of the members here are scientology apologists or fans. Most of the EX-scientologists have been banned or are outposted by those who still believe or never were in.
:flames:

Wow! Where'd you come up with THAT one???????

Guys - is there something you're not telling us? Alanzo? Panda? Programmer? Noz? Bea? Etc etc etc?????
There's plenty of things I'm not telling you! :coolwink:
LB's befuddled inference isn't one of them.
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
I'll address your other points after we move on, but since this was the essence of your latest argument to me, I would really like to nail this down:

Given the points I made in my previous post to you, can I assume that you no longer think that I lack good social judgment by inviting newly-outs (and anyone else with ears to hear) to learn more about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard than Marty and the Marty-ites are ever going to allow?

Perhaps I have completely misunderstood you all along. My involvement in this discussion was based on your post about "I don't know what happened. He just shit his pants", about Marty's response to your "invitation" for people on his blog to visit ESMB.

Thus I assumed your goal there was to "sell" ESMB to any and all people reading his blog, not to make Marty shit his pants. IF your goal was to sell ESMB over there, THEN I felt you were going about it wrong.

BECAUSE to accomplish that, you have to AVOID pushing those particular buttons of Marty's so he will like and trust you or at least tolerate you because he feels you contribute something positive to HIS blog.

You would not want him to not react negatively to you, because if he gets "slappy" with you, several other people will follow his cue and jump on you. Or jump on you anyway on their own initiative if they don't like what you posted.

So if my assumption about your goal there is not correct, then any advice I have offered or any evaluation I made may well not be valid.

My evaluation of your social judgement wouldn't matter in this instance at least, because it was based on what I thought was the context. if my assumption about that was wrong, then my evaluation would be wrong.

What matters is whether or not you feel you are accomplishing your goals there or not.

I read your post as indicating surprise at an unintended result. May be it really wasn't. Maybe it was more or less in line with what you are trying to do over there. Maybe your goal is not to "sell" ESMB over there, but to provoke and challenge, present a different view or what ever you think you are doing. That's fine.

But that won't get you a license from Marty to sell ESMB over there. That ought to be common-sense. You can't sell by being challenging or antagonistic, ie, by "making wrong" the people you are trying to sell.

The thing is, good selling involves qualifying your prospects. If you're trying to sell something to people who aren't interested or are in fact antagonistic
to what you have, you have to "handle" first. In scino terms, you have to "Handle" before you can "bring to understanding"(sell) them.

That's standard sales training, not original to Hubbard. Try Zig Ziglar or any of the great sales trainers. Wheneveryoustart selling,youarelikelytorun into"objections" You have to handle every objection that comes up, before you will ever be able to "close the sale"(Get your invitations posted, or whatever).

"Qualifying your prospects" can mean different things, but in this case, many of the dominant posters over there are not interested in your "different view", and it is because of them you have to "handle". There are a lot of people who read that blog who are not doctrinaire and are open to different views, but you have to get by the guardians of the pc-ness over there to reach them. Given Marty's bad impression of ESMB, it won't be easy.

So any lack of good social judgement I may have thought I perceived refers not to the general principle of inviting people to ESMB, but to how you appeared to be trying to do it in the context of Marty's blog.

I felt you "should have known" you would get slapped for posting what you did.

I am still trying to figure out who and why Marty allows to post, even when what they post seems "non-pc" for his blog, while others hedoesn't allow or slaps. Don't have too many conclusions about it yet, just have some "feel' for it. In your case I think your name/reputation affects how he responds to you.

There are one or two posts favorable to ESMB he has allowed recently, so maybe there is hope.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I appreciate the fine-tuning you provided here.

I guess I picked up the misdefinition of "Socratic method" from hanging around with psychotherapist type people.

I did mean it as a mostly non-directive style of interaction used by many therapists, in which questions are sometimes reflected back to the questioner. The old "That's a good question. What do you think?" tactic.

It does seem like a derivative of the Socratic method as you describe it, perhaps a gentler one because it does not involve any antagonism. It is designed to avoid conflict and get the person thinking for himself.

:thumbsup:

Yes, there is much to derive from Socrates. Plato, Aristotle and much of Western Philosophy is filled with derivates from the “Gadfly of Athens”.

If you get some spare time you should read the Meno Dialogue and the Trial and Death Dialogues. Socrates had not the slightest thought of his “Legacy” nor “smashing his name into history”. He sought only “Truth”. He also was a soldier with a distinguished record on the field of battle.

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks, Face for the :thumbsup: re my post :)

Re

How fantastic! Wasn't he just the best? I mean it, when he passed away, I cannot tell you how many people came, wrote, and to this day tell me stories of my Dad. Gratefully I thank them, as losing him at 22, I missed many stories most kids would hear later.

Thanks, Face--that's REALLY fun for me! Did you know
"Magoo" was HIS Nickname, I gave him when little (due to his tiny eyes, and his fun sense of humor)? He *loved* Laurel and Hardy as an example and we used to watch their shows, laughing all the way through. Jackie Gleason, too. He loved to laugh.:roflmao:

When I was waking up--and made those 4,000 posts on
ARS in 4 weeks, (right around/before my escape in July of 2000) I had to come up with a nick. Since I felt like I could feel my Dad's courage--and he saying "Do it!"---re looking, I created a name: MistMagoo55 (as Magoo was taken at the time, I think)

"Magoo" ended up sticking, and I always feel him near, or at least his strength and courage, and wisdom, too.
Just a little bit about my Dad, Paul Christman:
All American for Missouri University and in the Football
Hall of Fame.
#44 Quarterback for the Chicago Cardinals
(and he played one year for the Packers, too)
and yes, broadcast as you mentioned, on NBC, with Curt
Gowdy in the 60's. That's my Dad
:thumbsup:

Lots of love and fun ...it's Halloween time! :omg:

S-w-e-e-t! :yes: I didn't know that...thank you for sharing this.

Paul Christman was the "Real Deal".:coolwink:

Face:)
 
Atlantan to Alanzo:

"..
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood you all along. My involvement in this discussion was based on your post about "I don't know what happened. He just shit his pants", about Marty's response to your "invitation" for people on his blog to visit ESMB.

Thus I assumed your goal there was to "sell" ESMB to any and all people reading his blog, not to make Marty shit his pants. IF your goal was to sell ESMB over there, THEN I felt you were going about it wrong....."

Exactly. You did not seem to "get" what others' goals are either, re Marty and his blogs.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
After watching Alanzo for some time now, it seems to me like Alanzo's not happy until he gets bitch-slapped by the object of his affection. And then, he is very, very happy. Alanzo likes it rough.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
After watching Alanzo for some time now, it seems to me like Alanzo's not happy until he gets bitch-slapped by the object of his affection. And then, he is very, very happy. Alanzo likes it rough.

I think you're onto something here! :p
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
After watching Alanzo for some time now, it seems to me like Alanzo's not happy until he gets bitch-slapped by the object of his affection. And then, he is very, very happy. Alanzo likes it rough.

:roflmao:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood you all along. My involvement in this discussion was based on your post about "I don't know what happened. He just shit his pants", about Marty's response to your "invitation" for people on his blog to visit ESMB.

Thus I assumed your goal there was to "sell" ESMB to any and all people reading his blog, not to make Marty shit his pants. IF your goal was to sell ESMB over there, THEN I felt you were going about it wrong.

BECAUSE to accomplish that, you have to AVOID pushing those particular buttons of Marty's so he will like and trust you or at least tolerate you because he feels you contribute something positive to HIS blog.

You would not want him to not react negatively to you, because if he gets "slappy" with you, several other people will follow his cue and jump on you. Or jump on you anyway on their own initiative if they don't like what you posted.

So if my assumption about your goal there is not correct, then any advice I have offered or any evaluation I made may well not be valid.

My evaluation of your social judgement wouldn't matter in this instance at least, because it was based on what I thought was the context. if my assumption about that was wrong, then my evaluation would be wrong.

What matters is whether or not you feel you are accomplishing your goals there or not.

I read your post as indicating surprise at an unintended result. May be it really wasn't. Maybe it was more or less in line with what you are trying to do over there. Maybe your goal is not to "sell" ESMB over there, but to provoke and challenge, present a different view or what ever you think you are doing. That's fine.

But that won't get you a license from Marty to sell ESMB over there. That ought to be common-sense. You can't sell by being challenging or antagonistic, ie, by "making wrong" the people you are trying to sell.

The thing is, good selling involves qualifying your prospects. If you're trying to sell something to people who aren't interested or are in fact antagonistic
to what you have, you have to "handle" first. In scino terms, you have to "Handle" before you can "bring to understanding"(sell) them.

That's standard sales training, not original to Hubbard. Try Zig Ziglar or any of the great sales trainers. Wheneveryoustart selling,youarelikelytorun into"objections" You have to handle every objection that comes up, before you will ever be able to "close the sale"(Get your invitations posted, or whatever).

"Qualifying your prospects" can mean different things, but in this case, many of the dominant posters over there are not interested in your "different view", and it is because of them you have to "handle". There are a lot of people who read that blog who are not doctrinaire and are open to different views, but you have to get by the guardians of the pc-ness over there to reach them. Given Marty's bad impression of ESMB, it won't be easy.

So any lack of good social judgement I may have thought I perceived refers not to the general principle of inviting people to ESMB, but to how you appeared to be trying to do it in the context of Marty's blog.

I felt you "should have known" you would get slapped for posting what you did.

I am still trying to figure out who and why Marty allows to post, even when what they post seems "non-pc" for his blog, while others hedoesn't allow or slaps. Don't have too many conclusions about it yet, just have some "feel' for it. In your case I think your name/reputation affects how he responds to you.

There are one or two posts favorable to ESMB he has allowed recently, so maybe there is hope.

All right, so you are basically saying that if my goal is to sell newly-outs on the ideas of expanding their factual knowledge of LRH and Scientology, then I am going about it all wrong. And in that way I am not using good social judgment. I need to get some Zig Ziglar tapes and smooth out my sales skills.

You may be right.

If it is possible to "go into ARC" with politically correct Scientology and tell the factual truth about L Ron Hubbard and Scientology, then I may very well be a complete social retard for how I am going about it.

10 years of being a critic, however, while constantly bumping up against newly outs, and all their same thought-stopping mechanisms (the AMA/APA, Psychs, etc) have taught me that it is not possible to go into ARC with PC Scientology, and to still talk about the facts as I see them.

Further, what I have learned is that if you do that, you are just called "1.1", a "real covert SP", etc etc... More thought-stopping mechanisms to keep them from listening to anything you say.

So while I am unable to predict precisely who is going to shit their pants and have their heads explode - like Marty did - I can predict that the dominant response is going to be thought-stopping phrases and dead agent techniques that will be used to get people to shut out what I say.

As a result, I have learned to very OVERTLY STATE MY CASE and even WILLINGLY and DRAMATICALLY BE THE SP they are going to accuse me of being anyway. To take that to ridiculous extremes and to then become very LOUD and UNKILLABLE ABOUT IT.

Kind of like the porcupine strategy that Ron talked about in one of his taped lectures. He said that it is impossible to shoot a porcupine and kill it, and hunters who try and try just go down tone into apathy after a while and give up.

As an Armadillo, Porcupines are our distant, long lost cousins who we very much admire. That is why I have adopted the Porcupine Strategy of Scientology Internet criticism.

Maybe it's not the smoothest social strategy in the world, but I really do believe that I have a social responsibility to try to help others in the same way that I was helped, as long as the same problems face others that I faced. I feel a social responsibility to let others know what I found out so that they can avoid the pitfalls I fell into by having things hidden from me, and actively lied to about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard.

And so in that sense, I do feel that I am employing some little bit of social judgment. Even good social judgment.

Or, I could just like it rough.

Anyway, many, many people are always helping to make me into a better critic, and I always appreciate their suggestions and take them all under consideration.

We here at Alanzo's Critics Enterprises, LLC hold a meeting every Friday afternoon, empty the huge Suggestion Box out on to the conference table in a big pile, and sift through each suggestion about how I can be a better critic.

We talk them over and make notes on the big whiteboard, draw diagrams and arrows to connect them all together, and work out strategies for their implementation.

Your suggestions will be part of our meeting tomorrow and I'm sure my people will be all over it.

We know that you have a choice in your criticisms of Scientology, and we appreciate your choosing us.

Thank you for your contribution.
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
Atlantan to Alanzo:

"..
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood you all along. My involvement in this discussion was based on your post about "I don't know what happened. He just shit his pants", about Marty's response to your "invitation" for people on his blog to visit ESMB.

Thus I assumed your goal there was to "sell" ESMB to any and all people reading his blog, not to make Marty shit his pants. IF your goal was to sell ESMB over there, THEN I felt you were going about it wrong....."

Exactly. You did not seem to "get" what others' goals are either, re Marty and his blogs.

You are right.

I respond to how things "seem" to me.

Your remark "seems" mysterious to me. Fraught with a significance only you understand, but empty of any meaning for me. Good luck with that.

So I'm not getting what you mean here either, I guess. If you mean I don't get what Marty's goals are, you're probably right. I don't try to guess.

I have no idea what your goal in posting here is, or anyone else's for that matter. It will eventually come into focus for me. In the meantime, I just go with the flow and respond to what appears in front of me. My mind works in the background and that's fine with me.

I have no ambition to be anything more than what I am. If that amuses you, well, whatever floats your boat.

By the way, "seems" is a great word, isn't it. All about appearances. How do I appear to you?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
You are right.

I respond to how things "seem" to me.

Your remark "seems" mysterious to me. Fraught with a significance only you understand, but empty of any meaning for me. Good luck with that.

So I'm not getting what you mean here either, I guess. If you mean I don't get what Marty's goals are, you're probably right. I don't try to guess.

I have no idea what your goal in posting here is, or anyone else's for that matter. It will eventually come into focus for me. In the meantime, I just go with the flow and respond to what appears in front of me. My mind works in the background and that's fine with me.

I have no ambition to be anything more than what I am. If that amuses you, well, whatever floats your boat.

By the way, "seems" is a great word, isn't it. All about appearances. How do I appear to you?

You appear to me to be an extremely intelligent, very articulate voice here on ESMB.

I am glad that you are here.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I lurked a long time before I began to post.

One thing I learned for sure is that Alanzo makes some very very very intelligent posts.

And I, for one, ain't about to tell him to him what he ought or ought not be doing.

Alanzo is one of the posters that if he posts I want to read it.

Thanks man, please keep up the excellent work !

Oh, and yes, he IS one of those people that one day I hope I get to meet IRL.
 
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