2009 was great... will Tom Cruise "save the day" this year?

Hi!

I hope you don't mind me joining and/or posting. I have never been a Scientologist, but became very interested in the CoS over the last year... it started when I realized a Prof. of mine at Uni was a Scientologist. I read more and more about the CoS and have been keeping up with the CoS story for about a year now. I have done a lot of lurking, as it were.

I am probably naive, but I see the writing on the wall for the church. However, like any totalitarian regime, it seems unlikely to ever collapse (but it will). Before the wall fell in 1989, even 2 weeks before it fell, no-one in Hungary thought it would fall. It seemed impossible. And then it fell, and those Hungarians living outside of the country honestly couldn't believe it. I feel that CoS is going the same way... as in, nothing seems to be going on, and then it will be over.

Anyway, I wrote something about the past year and wonder how far off the mark I am. My Tom Cruise as saviour idea is probably ridiculous, but crazier things have happened.

Thanks again for letting me be here,
markthehungarian

*****

The first time I looked more deeply into Scientology was when Tom Cruise jumped on Oprah’s couch and South Park created their “In the Closet” episode. Then the Tom Cruise Scientology video was leaked onto the internet, and the Church of Scientology (CoS) did everything in its power to pull it from public view. They succeeded in forcing youtube to withdraw the video, but this caused a ripple around the interweb.

Since then, a struggle has emerged between CoS and Anonymous, a group of individuals with the common purpose of bringing those who perpetrate illegal acts in the name of the CoS to justice. Claiming to be holy (irrespective of religion) does not come with immunity. From checking out the ex-scientology forum, reading Marty Rathbun’s blog, going over to Xenutv.com and keeping up with Tory Magoo’s youtube channel, I have become engrossed in the fabulous reality-internet that is the present state of the Church of Scientology and its members.

Anonymous announced it had declared war on the CoS in a youtube video that could have been included as the prologue to a science fiction film. It has used the internet to its advantage. Scientology is the little Dutch boy that uses his thumb to block up holes. But the CoS is outgunned; it has only two thumbs, but the holes number in the thousands.

The more the CoS fights, and the nastier it gets, the worse it looks. It has been accused of harrassing its enemies and intimidating those who are against them, but those tactics can’t work against 10,000 people. Hell, it can’t even work against 1,0000.

Scientology loves its numbers. It measures progress and improvement through numbers. They also claim to be masters of communication. If that is the case, how can the leader of an organization that professes to be #1 at communication and numbers give a speech like this? (1st video, time 4.30 from the end) Although I am not a fan of university courses that teach public speaking, I had to take one when I was a student. I distinctly remember one of the basic rules… Don’t use too many numbers! Repetitive use of numbers puts the listener to sleep. Miscavige didn’t get that memo, obviously.

Scientology claims to have 10 million members and to be the fastest growing religion in the world – in the Miscavige speech above he mentions the Scientology has reached more than 1 billion people. I don’t know how gullible you have to be to believe that Scientology is the #1 fastest growing religion because the last time I checked, I hadn’t been past an Org (the Scientology equivalent of a church) I could remember. In the mid 70s I do remember seeing the Dianetics books on shelves at friends’ houses – the volcano image stuck in my mind but the overall design was just so tacky – but by the 80s they had all but disappeared. So how does Scientology manage to prevent its followers from exposing themselves to outside influences?

The answer comes in isolation. The CoS successfully isolates those who are Scientologists from those who are not. Scientologists use specific terms to create a barrier between the Scientology and outside world. It was only when I started reading about Scientology that I remembered a Professor of mine at University. She was very nice and very good natured – I have nothing but good things to say about her – but during the summer class she taught, the words “squirrel” and “handle it” came up a lot. From the context, squirrels were problems and when one handled something it was fixed. In retrospect she was obviously a Scientologist at some point.

If Scientology is the fastest growing religion worldwide, can it be possible that I’ve only come across one Scientologist in my lifetime? Surely I must have met more than one. It’s hard to know because Scientologists rarely broadcast their faith to the world. I’ve met Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Jews, etc. but I have yet to have a conversation that includes the snippet “…and I’ve been a Scientologist ever since.” The CoS claims to have 10 million members worldwide (itself a very small number on the global scale). Unofficial estimates put the number closer to 50,000 active members.

Scientologists believe that they are homo novis (new man) rather than homo sapiens, so many of them do look down on those outside the CoS. Those outside the church system are known as wogs. The homeless are known as degenerate beings, which is just charming. The most extreme Scientologists form the backbone of the church and are known as the Sea Org(anization). In order to join the SO, one has to sign a billion year contract to volunteer for the church. Scientologists believe in reincarnation (of sorts). Still, once in, many are slowly lured deeper and deeper into the paranoid world that is Scientology. They are very quick to defend themselves when criticized and do not play fair. I have come across numerous stories where Private Investigators hired by lawyers (working for the CoS) are planted amongst those who have walked away from the church in order to check up on them to ensure they posed no threat.

It is the only “religion” I know of where lying is not only condoned in some situations, but recommended.

Enemies of the church are labelled supressive persons, or SPs. Once one is branded an SP by the church, they are also excommunicated from the CoS. Members within the church are encouraged to break all contact with those who are SPs, because Scientologists believe that contact with an SP will cause them to become SPs also. Being labelled as an SP is also known as being “declared.” The process whereby families are split apart is known as disconnection.

Over the last year, the once seamless exterior of Scientology has started to fall to bits. Cracks are emerging, CoS Orgs are either deserted or stand empty, and high level members are leaving the church in numbers. What is more impressive is how many of these ex-members are starting to speak out. Impressive for Anonymous, maybe. For the CoS it has been devastating.

The CoS is shrinking and is starting to devour itself. Leaked emails and videos paint a picture of a group that is finding it more and more and more difficult to persuade people to come in off the street for a session (Scns call this bodyrouting). In order to keep the cash flow going, the CoS is pressuring existing members to buy the same materials, again. This cannot last.

Either the CoS will continue to gobble up the funds of its members, effectively bankrupting itself in the long run, or the CoS will have to get funds elsewhere. Yet it is scrambling to get as much real estate as possible – maybe it is gambling on the housing market to improve so that it can make a quick buck. Even if this is their strategy, and it works out as they planned, it will only be a temporary black mark in an exceedingly red ledger. If it cannot get through this rough patch, then the CoS risks having to offload real estate to cover its costs; selling now would mean taking a loss across the board on each sale.

So far, the CoS has provided several reissues of important texts. These come out yearly, if not more often. Members are pressured into spending thousands of dollars on slightly newer versions of the books they’ve already bought (twice, or three times, or four times, etc). Each member is supposed to have two e-meters, for auditing purposes. Although you only use one, you are expected to have a spare, just in case. An e-meter is, at heart, a form of lie detector that Scientologists use during auditing sessions – their version of therapy. The one being audited holds onto “the cans,” and the e-meter measures the charge in your body using the cans.

E-meters cost less than $100 to make (I’ve read $40 online), but these are passed on the Scientology members for $3,000-$10,0000, depending on which model you get; there are always a few on ebay. The profit on these machines alone is obscene.

CoS knows that it has to start winning the PR battle. In order to get new meat into the Orgs, the public shouldn’t be turned off by CoS and the name Hubbard before they’ve even listened to the sales pitch. But Scientology and the CoS are already practically synonymous with the word “cult.” CoS has tried video campaigns to turn the tide, but the cost of waging a full scale media war might be beyond them.

To reach enough people, the CoS would need to buy TV time during primetime and do so regularly. The price would be prohibitive. They have posted videos online, but they have been ineffective. One of their campaigns reminded me of minimalist insurance/car commercials. But these squeaky-clean and pretty dull films don’t hold a candle to the hurricane winds of other clips on the internet.

A quick web search for the terms “scientologist incident england nuts” brings up a video of George Baillie. I have no idea who he is, but it is reported that he is an OT VIII, which is as high up as you can get on the Scientology “Bridge” at the moment. If this is what CoS produces as a final product, does anyone really want to join? Or what about this guy? Both are so aggressive.

Marc Headley’s book, “Blown For Good,” was a direct hit that the CoS PR department couldn’t avoid. The memoir tells the story of Headley’s time in Scientology, what he saw while working for the church, and his eventual escape from the organization, an act known as “blowing.” Intially only available through his website, his book stirred up a great deal of media interest. He gave several interviews on TV, took part in several conferences also also gave several radio interviews. Of these, I found the radio shows the most interesting. It probably comes down to money – radio time is relatively cheap – so radio interviews usually last much longer and go more in depth.

CoS did what it could to counter Headley, but were powerless. Ten years ago I have no doubt the book would never have reached the publisher.

The biggest bombshell came with the publication in late summer of “the Truth Rundown,” an investigative series put together by tampabay.com. I think this is an offshoot of the St Petersburg Times (the S-P Times, which seems too good to be true) although I’m not sure.

The newpaper put together an incredible expose with people who had not only escaped the CoS, but who had been very high up when they ran for the border. These included Marty Rathbun (who seemed maybe a little too keen to blame everything that was bad in the CoS on Miscavige), Amy Scobee, Marc Headley, and Mike Rinder. From what I gathered, Rinder was interviewed. However, he was not shown on camera, so I’m not sure whether he was truly in on the documentary. I don’t know whether the Tampa Bay expose will win a Pulitzer for what it produced about Scientology, but it should.

Then came the Nightline interview with Martin Bashir, where Tommy Davis pulled off his microphone and stormed off the set. Davis was then the Head PR man for the CoS which was surprising considering what had happened only months before.

Previously, Tommy Davis was involved in a BBC documentary that was a PR disaster for the church. In it, BBC Panaroma’s ”Scientology and Me,” the CoS and those working for them, came across as pushy, unreasonable, and very creepy. There are PIs, the crew is followed, and the ultra-aggressive Tommy Davis pops up out of nowhere to go nuclear. It was nasty.

The CoS tried damage control, but everyone involved knew that the shit had hit the fan. Davis occupies a unique position in the church in that he could almost be perceived as royalty; there seems no reason as to why he gets special treatment, but he obviously does. Born into a wealthy Scientology family (his mother is actress Anne Archer, considered to be a gem in CoS’s crown), Davis took centre-stage in a BBC documentary that dealt a blow to the church. Davis came across so badly that I was surprised that to see that he was still around (more accurately, back again…).

Towards the end of the documentary, the British reporter is standing in a London doorway having a conversation with the previous head of PR, Australian Mike Rinder, an unfortunately sinister looking man. Rinder is not convincing at all when he tells the journalist that the head of the church, David Miscavige, never physically assaulted anyone.

The day that footage was shot was the last day that Mike Rinder was in the church. Miscavige had been following what was going on in London and knew that the situation was another disaster. In the true Scientology way, if something goes wrong it is because someone didn’t want it to go right. These people need to be fixed or removed. From what I have read, the higher you are up the more serious the consequences for your mistakes. Or maybe you’ve already been through the ringer so many times to get where you are, that you know what to expect. And if it’s really bad, your heart might not be in going one more round.

Rinder realized that the punishment for his crimes was going to be very bad… Miscavige had ordered him to return to base to dig ditches and it was the last straw for him. Rinder literally got up and walked out the door. He’s never gone back.

Back in the US, meanwhile, Davis was by no means off the hook. Rinder might have been in command of the whole operation, but Davis would still have to pay for his mistakes. He also knew his punishment might be extreme and it is claimed that he also blew. He spent a week in Las Vegas before the CoS tracked him down and convinced him to return to the mecca of scientology in Clearwater, Florida. When back in the Scientologists’ firm grasp, his punishment was to clean toilets with a toothbrush. For two weeks. Miscavige is supposed to have numerous photographs of Davis cleaning U-bends armed only with a piece of plastic covered with bristles labelled “soft.” It’s made even more humiliating for Davis when one learns that the password on Davis’s laptop was “I’m a killer.”

Although he really let the side down in the BBC documentary, Davis has somehow managed to rehabilitate himself into the CoS fold. One can only assume that he did the crime and then he did the time. Even so, I was surprised to see the CoS play Russian roulette yet again… this time on the Nightline exposee with Martin Bashir. It looked super-awkward from the start.

Davis seemed nervous throughout – scientologists would call this a fail – and did his best to avoid questions as best he could. Bashir prodded Davis about the Xenu story, which led to a threat from Davis that he would walk. Bashir then tried a different tack but mentioned Xenu again. Now Davis yanked his mike off and stormed off the set. From here it looked as though Davis was looking for a reason to back out all throughout the interview and finally latched onto something he could use. There was no way that it could have gone that would have helped Davis, so he cut things off before they really got out of control.

But some of his answers were fascinating. Setting aside the body language that screamed “get away from me!” there were several things he just lied about. Specifically, he lied when he spoke of disconnection, and that it doesn’t exist. It was this interview that pushed Hollywood director Paul Haggis to officially leave the church.

Haggis is the first big Hollywood player to not only leave CoS, but also to put the church on blast for their past and present practices. He railed against the homophobic stance of the CoS and also their practice of disconnection, something which had directly affected his family. And the snowball didn’t stop there.

Australian Senator Nick Xenophon gave an epic speech to an unfortunately empty house that detailed the consistent irregular behaviour of the CoS and its members. He has called for an investigation of the CoS, an organization he calls criminal. He spoke of forced abortions, mental abuse, mind control, subsistence living and even slave labour. As an elected official, his position in the house gives him protection from lawsuits, meaning that he can speak without fear of reprisals. The CoS moved to defuse the situation, but there was nothing they could do.

Xenophon spoke up only after meeting with several ex-members of the CoS. Most of these (if not all) no longer practice Scientology in their lives. Probably the most vocal of the group is a man called Aaron Saxton, who is proving to be a huge thorn in the side of the church.

He spent decades in the church – he signed up in his teens – and worked on the management side of things. He wasn’t selling books, rather he was in control of people selling books. In Scientology terms, he was a Messenger. He was also part of the Sea Org. It is obvious from his words and deeds that he is deeply ashamed by his own actions while in the Sea Org.

He has spoken of women he persuaded to have abortions.. Some of the quotes I have read from him might give you nightmares.

She wasn’t obeying my orders or instructions, I knew she was suicidal because I had read her file and spoke to her about it, and rather than help her I took her to Foster Thompkins office. He beat her, and he did this in front of myself and two other staff members, tore the top half of her shirt off, punched her in the face until she was terrified, and then we thought we’d done enough to put her in to line.

excerpt from Aaron’s Story

He has said that he isn’t “a nice guy,” but that he “got promoted all the time.” He believes that the whole facade that is Scientology should just come tumbling down because it is all based on lies. He has never met an OT or even seen one. He says that the CoS does not deliver what it promises, and can’t. There is no doubt that Saxton is responsible for a fair number of nasty deeds. But there is also no doubting his honesty in trying to make things better.

Saxton is now speaking up and criticizing the Sea Org directly while also implicating himself. He has distanced himself from both Marty Rathbun, whom he accuses of wanting to take the CoS for himself, and Mike Rinder, the former head spokesperson for the CoS. Both blew, yet neither has said much about their activities within the CoS. Both were in high positions until they blew so they certainly had their fingers on the pulse of the CoS and David Miscavige. They certainly know more than they are telling, because they have said so little.

Aaron Saxton recently spoke at an Anonymous raid on the CoS in Sydney in a speech that is sure to excite and maybe incite. Standing outside the Sydney Org, Saxton implores those inside to listen to what he has to say… he was very loud so I can only imagine what the staff inside were doing. He is pulling for the CoS, and especially the Sea Org, to be disbanded. He just might get his way.

There are other figureheads out in the ether. On this continent, two of the best known are Tory Christman (aka Magoo) and Mark Bunker. Christman left the CoS although she was married and very high up in the church (OT VII). She worked for the Intelligence arm of the CoS known as OSA and when she left the church she was chased across the US as they tried to pull her back in.

Christman posts almost daily on her youtube channel and her updates are really informative; she seems very generous and very thankful. Mark Bunker (aka Wise Beard Man, WBM), on the other hand, was never in the CoS (to my knowledge). He runs the xenutv.com website which is updated regularly and has lots of things to read and watch.

As a side note, xenutv.com was where I first saw a video with two former Scientologists, Greg and Debra Barnes “speaking freely” of their experiences in the CoS. It was my initiation into the world of scientology and the mind control of the CoS. This was the first time I listened to intense non-stop Scieno-speak and it actually made me physically ill. I had to stop the video 30 minutes in to stop myself from throwing up. What they’re talking about is obviously very important, but when I first listened to it I had absolutely no idea what they where talking about.

They spoke English, yet I understood not one word. It was terrifying.

I still find it hard to watch.

The most famous person in CoS is Tom Cruise, hands down. He apparently spent 10 years out of the church once he went through the ring of fire, otherwise known as OT III. Whether it was the Xenu fable or something else, the result was that Cruise became disenchanted with the CoS to the point where he put some distance between himself and the church. But, however it happened, Cruise returned to the fold to become the poster boy of Scientology. He is everything that’s right in the church – at least that’s how it might look to insiders – and considering his history I believe he is a religious zealot. Calling him a fanatic might be too strong, but he is most definitely a believer in Hubbard’s tech and proud to “call himself a Scientologist.” He was searching for enlightenment when he was young, so going so deeply into a philosophy like this is par for the course. Some have gone so far as to label Cruise the #2 man in the church, a claim that I believe he would be the first to reject.

At some point, in my search, I came across videos that the CoS prepared for internal use. These are all viewable online. Some of them are quite scary and all, to me at least, are incredibly vague. One stuck in my mind – it is a film encouraging members of CoS to travel to Flag, the biggest (and best) Scientology centre on the planet. In the original, the most powerful person who speaks is Debra Cook, a lady who was the Captain of the Flag Service Organization (FSO) at Flag. You can see her in this parody video that uses the original video… go to 1:20.

In Scientology terms, probably the only defection that could be a bigger bombshell than hers would be either Tom Cruise or David Miscavige. They haven’t left the church. But she has. She might have left 18 months ago; it’s not clear, as yet. She was rumored to have been shipped out to LA for punishment detail in 2007. This after being the top dog in Clearwater for approximately 20 years. She spent several months in LA before she left the CoS with her husband.

It’s not clear whether she blew or routed out (left with the permission of CoS), but she is no longer in. It would not reflect well on the church if she too is declared an SP. After all, shouldn’t someone have noticed an SP in their midst over those 20 years? Sadly, there is no news from her yet. I have my fingers crossed that she is just putting her life together before she comes out with a book. Now that would be fascinating!

Returning to Tom Cruise. Of all the players, his defection would be the most damaging… I don’t think it’s an impossibility. No matter how far “in” you are, forced abortions cannot be justified. Keeping parishioners locked up in the RPF, the Scientology version of a slave camp, cannot be justified. Working children aged 5-15 all day long cannot be justified. Withholding wages and benefits from employees cannot be justified. Restricting the movement of people cannot be justified. Punishing those who fail to meet targets by feeding them less cannot be justified; this is the very same system the Soviet Union used in the gulags… it was very effective in killing people quickly.

Tom Cruise might be blinded, but he will eventually see what he was a part of. When that day comes, Miscavige might regret focusing on the Top Gun and pulling him in. If that day comes, I fully expect Tom Cruise “to handle it” and pull the CoS down around him. Fireworks are guaranteed.

He might be their greatest symbol now, but if Tom Cruise leaves the CoS it might be impossible for the organization to recover from the blow to their PR. I wonder what Cruise would need to see or hear to finally realize, and come to terms with, the untold harm and damage Scientology has caused members and their families.

Although I’m not a scientologist and am not interesting in Hubbard “tech” at all, I’m finding the current events in the CoS to be a roller coaster ride with twists and turns that are impossible to predict. Connecting the dots has been an eye-opening experience – Scientology reminds me a lot of a totalitarian regime and they have always interested me for personal reasons. My family is originally from behind the Iron Curtain so cults of personality (and normal cults) always pique my fancy.

2009 was a great year for critics of the CoS. I think 2010 will be even better.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
That's quite a compilation - nice job. Yes 2009 was quite a year. It seems impossible that 2010 could be worse. One can only hope.
 

apple

Patron Meritorious
Thank you for posting this. You certainly did your homework.

As far as people that still support it. I dont know why they still do. I have friends 30 years involved in it and they refuse to look at any anti-scientology material.

True.. I have driven by two orgs and they seem empty. Unlike in the 70s, course rooms were bulging and people flowing out into the street at break time. Now none of that is happening.

Tom Cruise, well I think that he is on his way out. He has been quiet for some time and I think he will be like John Travolta, keeping a low profile. Someday he will leave and either be quiet about his involvement or be pissed and outspoken. It could go either way.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Mark, terrific work. I was actually about to go hunt out some of these links today, then I read your post, you saved me a lot of time. :)
 

Ho Tai

Patron Meritorious
Hi!

... if Tom Cruise leaves the CoS it might be impossible for the organization to recover from the blow to their PR. I wonder what Cruise would need to see or hear to finally realize, and come to terms with, the untold harm and damage Scientology has caused members and their families.

I wonder what Tom might have in his ethics folder that he wouldn't want printed in the SP Times!
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
What a good lurker you are, youve learned a lot, well done.

It's really good to see intelligent understanding. Long may you continue to watch and observe and post!

Hurray for the Hungarian!:happydance::happydance:
 

Thalkirst

Patron with Honors
Örömmel látnám magyarul. PM-elj kérlek, ha érdekel.


(Translation: I would love to have this summary in Hungarian.

PM me please if you are in interested in helping.)
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Wow, Mark the H, this is great, with lots of stuff I haven't seen - or read - before.

Tom Cruise's body language in the leaked CofS video, tells me so much about what is going on with him. Notice how he puts his hand to his mouth, to cover what he is saying, how his voice is very low and almost inaudible, like he is embarrassed and/or ashamed, and how he makes no sense, laughs, makes hand gestures to hide his discomforture. This is TOM CRUISE, MOVIE STAR, ACTOR, who exudes confidence and ability, and he comes off like he is trying to hide - in front of a CAMERA !

I hope you are right, that Tom Cruise comes out of the 'closet', soon, and speaks his mind - speaks freely - his own true mind - about Scitog. What can they have on him? I think most of us out here would respect him a lot more, if he got his courage up, and just did it, regardless of what they have on him. Same with Travolta. Hey Dudes, we really don't care what you might have done - just step up to the plate, when it counts. Own it, own yourself - reclaim your dignity. Be a Hero - for real.

We all love a Hero . . . (like Aaron).
 

Sassy

Patron Meritorious
WOW, great job! I too was never in but also became fascinated by what the hell this cult was all about when I started hearing about Anonymouse, the South Park episode, the couch jumping, the Matt Lauer interview, etc. Surely Tom Cruise, John Travolta & the "millions" of members couldn't all be :screwy:, right?

I've been on this site for over a year, reading posts & commenting occasionally. Hats off to those of you who made the decision to leave & all that you're all doing for those coming out & thinking of coming out.

I live on the east coast of Florida and we have no orgs near us. I do not know any scientologists. The only knowledge I ever had is from a friend who did grow up in Clearwater & has a cousin who was in very deeply there. She is out now but her life will never be the same. "She's a fucking mess", as my friend says. She lives at home with her parents & does not work at all.

Anyway, here's hoping that 2010 delivers more blows to the crumbling wall around this cult. Happy New Year all.
 
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apple

Patron Meritorious
I live on the east coast of Florida and we have no orgs near us. I do not know any scientologists. The only knowledge I ever had is from a friend who did grow up in Clearwater & has a cousin who was in very deeply there. She is out now but her life will never be the same. "She's a fucking mess", as my friend says. She lives at home with her parents & does not work at all.

Its is interesting that you said that about this girl. I know a couple of people like that also. Maybe she is at home trying to heal after being involved in the cult. Hopefully in the future, after she sorts things out and gets stronger, she can go out on her own. I wonder how many others found refuge with family or friends after they left the cult? And for how long?
 
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I'm new to this thread but thus far this first post is one of the greatest introductions to Scientology that I have seen.
If I may, I'd like to add two other videos that I think are good:

Hey Ron,

Thank you for the kind words and for posting the videos. I'd never seen any of the three. Andreas is fantastic - he speaks calmly, honestly, and openly to Mr Religious Freedom Watch (that organization/name is embarrassing).

As for the last video (what are YOUR crimes?), there's not much to be said. Scientologists love to attack and bull-bait. But in all the footage I have seen online, I have yet to see any Scientologist take part in an honest discussion or debate. Considering that Scientologists value communication so highly, I find that astonishing.

What would happen if Joe Protester used the same technique against them? I imagine 2 groups of people shouting "what are YOUR crimes?" at each other until they're red in the face. It's at the same level as a kindergarden argument with two toddlers screaming "my dad is better than your dad" at one another, without the maturity.
 

RSG

Patron
Wow, that's a pretty good summary. :clap:

I couldn't see any mention of the fraud conviction in France, though... surprising, that. That's one of the bigger events of 2009 in my mind.
 

Ron Paul

Patron
Hey Ron,

Thank you for the kind words and for posting the videos. I'd never seen any of the three. Andreas is fantastic - he speaks calmly, honestly, and openly to Mr Religious Freedom Watch (that organization/name is embarrassing).

As for the last video (what are YOUR crimes?), there's not much to be said. Scientologists love to attack and bull-bait. But in all the footage I have seen online, I have yet to see any Scientologist take part in an honest discussion or debate. Considering that Scientologists value communication so highly, I find that astonishing.

What would happen if Joe Protester used the same technique against them? I imagine 2 groups of people shouting "what are YOUR crimes?" at each other until they're red in the face. It's at the same level as a kindergarden argument with two toddlers screaming "my dad is better than your dad" at one another, without the maturity.
I too have have never seen a Scientolgist openly and honestly discuss Scientology. I've had interesting conversations with Scientologists but rarely have I seen one who was willing to lay it all out on the table (present company excluded).
Here is another video of the only intelligent conversation I've seen with an OT who was also honest during this conversation. Too bad it didn't last longer. He does some evading when he says "even LRH said any organization can get better" because it doesn't address the specific misdeeds that are perpetuated by the Church of Scientology. Overall, however, I think the conversation was productive and it's a pity it didn't last longer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tie79oZsYmA
I love the comment teak43 makes on Youtube how "Miscavige is gonna give this guy such a beating."
That made me laugh but unfortunately it's probably true.
 
I saw the video of the Scn talking about body thetans before. While I don't agree with his opinion, I found him pleasant, kind and charming. Sadly the CoS doesn't promote people like this (or they have better things to do than be in the SO).

If the CoS used people like this to discuss their views, their PR wouldn't be half as bad.
 
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