#3 Person Crippling Scientology - Marty Rathbun

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I got what Mark meant, and his comment does relate to certain observable events and dramatic "outbursts" on this board. :confused2:

But, I am sure that might be unpopular to say out loud. :nervous: :unsure:


"....prone to ventures in adversarial factionalism."


Marvelous that you are able to interpret Mark Baker's cryptically tortured syntax!

Oui, Monsieur Clarificateur, what is Mark struggling so mightily to try to tell us?

Which "outbursts" is he alluding to?

Who are the "outbursters"?
 

Sindy

Crusader
I agree with those who think Marty has helped cripple the Church of Scientology. I think "Church of Scientology" is where Ortega is coming from.

However, I never expected to see Tom Cruise below Marty on that list. I think Cruise is known throughout the entire galaxy as a Scientology crippler. Others I thought could have made the Top Five include Xenophon and Davis.

I think there are only two names left -- Miscavige and Hubbard. Anybody else possible in those two slots? Have we forgotten someone who's obvious?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's Hubbard at #2 and Miscavige at #1.

Some have argued against Hubbard making the list, since he's long gone. However, Xenu made #25 and Lisa McPherson made #10, so "living human being" is not a Village Voice requirement for the Top 25.

BTW, I am betting The People's Choice Award (chosen by readers' votes) will be Anonymous, who surely have stuffed the ballot boxes.

TG1

I, too, think it will be DM and Hubbard in the #1 and #2 slots (either which way doesn't matter) but doesn't OSA belong on there somewhere or is that just too general and obvious?
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Marty doesn't like his #3 status.

Science of Certainty vs. Pedagogy of Vacillation
Tony Ortega did a write up on me at the Village Voice yesterday.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/09/marty_rathbun_top_25_crippling_scientology.php

I appreciate the work Tony has done in investigating and working to understand me and what the independent movement is about. I think he provides a fairly accurate picture. One thing that Tony and I apparently don’t see eye to eye on is what our impact is on the future of Scientology. While he takes pains to distinguish between Corporate Scientology and Independent Scientology in the article at issue, he continues to consider – by the relegation of his story to the top twenty five people “crippling Scientology” – that we are somehow hurting the public image of Scientology. I couldn’t disagree more emphatically. I post about signs of our objectives being attained – differentiating in the public mind between the practice of Scientology philosophy and the daily criminal activity of the “church” of Scientology – fairly often (ironically including Tony’s own coverage of Janet Reitman’s book, our recent trip to Germany, and religious scholar Hugh Urban’s book on Scientology).

Perhaps not coincidentally, the only other thing I take exception to in Tony’s article on me is his painting a picture that I am focused on getting people out of the church and even out of Scientology. He misduplicated what happened with the three psychoanalyst referrals I received. One of them returned to the Bridge is moving up it actively, one considers himself an Independent Scientologist but is not actively pursuing the Bridge, and one – who for twelve years considered herself not a Scientologist – continued not to consider herself a Scientologist but lost all of her considerable antagonism and victimhood feelings for the subject, and instead went off considering her experiences part of her continuing growth.

I just let him know that I don’t solicit, advertise or pressure anyone to pursue Scientology. What he omitted to report is that I considered that approach remarkably effective. We just do our work and let the results speak for themselves. We are consistently booked solid four months in advance, and every week we have to refer people out because we just cannot handle the demand. <snip>
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/
 

Operating DB

Truman Show Dropout
All this nonsense just floats over my head. A.D.D. and all that.

All I can say is that I'm just glad I'm an Operating Degraded Being: the highest level attainable in LRH's Bridge to Total.....Wait! I think I may be a total ODB! May I attest now?

Anyone wanna party? It's Wednesday morning but why wait until Friday?
 
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Lavalyte

Patron with Honors
Yep, I would have Marty at #3 in my Top 25, too.
It's not that I think he's wonderful, great, saintly or any of that other BS that idiots like to throw around, it's just that he's actually doing something to cripple scientology.

The best he does is provide a distraction to the CoS while it sinks.
 
The best he does is provide a distraction to the CoS while it sinks.

He's more than a distraction, his freakshow is some of the best dysfunctional trainwreck entertainment on the internet. It's like watching a webcam installed in an insane asylum. It's like Bumfights meets Jerry Springer. If you weren't sure if Scientology is batshit crazy, ten minutes of Rathbun's Freakshow will remove any doubt in your mind.
 
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Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Dear Marty is on a noble quest to save Mankind by rescuing scintology from the evil clutches of little davie boy.

He sees himself on a mission to become a billionaire so his means are justified.

He continues to prove there are plenty of gullible people left to swallow the bait the second time around by hook,line, and sinker.
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
Dear Marty is on a noble quest to save Mankind by rescuing scintology from the evil clutches of little davie boy.

He sees himself on a mission to become a billionaire so his means are justified.

He continues to prove there are plenty of gullible people left to swallow the bait the second time around by hook,line, and sinker.

I disagree. Marty is not about to become the new Miscavige. He might dream about it... but it isn't going to happen.

Rathbun is small-time. His independent mission might be the only one that's growing, but it's only undergone expansion because corporate Scientology is leaking so badly. It's not because Marty is good, but because the alternative is such a basket case.

There is a limit to Marty's empire, though. The VV article shows just how small-time he is: people come and see Marty. They come and stay with him. They go fishing with their old buddy.

That's fine if you're running a boutique hotel, but it's no way to clear a planet. It's no way to extend the influence of the Hubbardite pseudoreligion.

Let's assume for a moment that Marty genuinely believes that what he's doing is the right thing to do. For the greatest good of the greatest number of dynamics, blah, whatever. So:

The most significant limiting factor in the Church of Marty... is Marty. His business plan puts him at the centre of his effort. If you want out, you communicate with him. You go and stay with him. You're audited by him.

A lot of small businesses make the same mistake: the proprietor is essential to the delivery of the product. That's fine for a while, but then what? Marty is not as young as he used to be. (Also, he gets arrested from time to time.) How is he going to continue to do what he's doing, for another ten years or more? Helping people (supposedly) to wake up and get out from under Miscavige... one or two at a a time.

Scientology victims are global, but Marty's brand of Hubbardism only operates in one spot. Marty hasn't learned from the master conman: make other people produce so as to make more money. His business plan seems to consist of little more than "I'm cheaper than the Church of Scientology", plus unproven (unprovable) claims that his voodoo is better than their voodoo.

I think Ortega is right: Marty is crippling Scientology. I don't believe Marty is capable of thinking big enough to replace CofS with something else. Tearing it down, he might well play a part in... but creating a lasting empire where Hubbard apologists will grow in number and influence? I think not. Not under Marty.
 

subrosa

Patron
Actually Marty has a vested interest in DM STAYING as COB! As long as Marty can legitimately complain about DM's abuses etc., Marty will stay in business! Marty's only possibilities for clientele are disaffected $cienos recently blown. IF that gravy train somehow folds, as in someone taking over and correcting the 'wrongs' then Marty will have no client base to draw from. THAT IS WHY he doesn't REALLY tell all and get rid of DM. Marty is just as interested in DM staying as COB as DM is!
It's all about the money.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I actually love the work Marty does to dismantle the lies of the CoS.

Even though he steadfastly avoids letting anyone see the "Source" of those lies.

Miscavige has added some new lies, so that keeps everyone busy chanting anti-COB slogans. Nothing wrong with that.

But, honestly, when I see a new CLEAR being celebrated that Indie Scn/Marty made at his home (recently on his blog), I am instantly reminded of the assault on truth that Scientology's "Bridge" wages against the credulous and naive.

If Indie Scn really was truthful about a few things, it would be a refreshing and welcome new religion. But, what about that?

Promoting and celebrating a non-existent spiritual state like Clear or OT?

Isn't that the central core issue of this entire monstrosity that the CoS grew out of?

Aren't deceptive claims about advanced states the seed that grew into a large tree with branches called "SP DECLARE" and "SHORE STORIES" and "CRIMINAL TERRORISM" and "FRAUD" and "FAIR GAME"?

I just can't get past that with Scientologists or Indie Scientologists.

The lies about Clear and OT.

Honestly? If a branch of Scientology cropped up that came out publicly to state that Clear and OT are not attainable yet....and that a stack of LRH policies were being CANCLELED, then I would have some real respect for Indie Scientology.

Can you imagine what would happen if Marty issued a statement that listed out all the LRH policies that Indies no longer needed to follow because they were criminal or harmful??

That can't happen, at least yet.

There is too much riding on the admiration of Ron as Source and truth.

It is a delicate and trembling connection that Indies seem to work hard to maintain.

But, really, it's not so bad letting go of it. Kind of refreshing and energizing, I have personally found.

That (to me) is the real standard of truth to judge a Scientologist, Indie Scientologist or any other "ologist". CAN THEY CALMLY FACE THE TRUTH AND TALK ABOUT IT WITHOUT WORRY ABOUT REPERCUSSIONS AND PR DAMAGE CONTROL?

As I say, I really admire Marty's work to free people from the CoS and the lies of Miscavige.

But, I invite him to speak as honestly and boldly about Ron and the state of Clear and the state of OT. Come on, dude, you can do it!
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
There is no clear. There is no OT. There is nothing from LRH that the world couldn't get along just fine without.

I think I covered it all.

Now.......................

Welcome to the Toady Church !

I bless you one and all !

Now go forth and do whatever it is you do... or don't do....or whatever !

No memberships are available in my church.
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Can you imagine what would happen if Marty issued a statement that listed out all the LRH policies that Indies no longer needed to follow because they were criminal or harmful??

I would really like to see that, though expanded to cover what non-admin stuff the indies consider "in" or "out".

If people want to disassociate themselves with the bad stuff, the current "we're in favor of all the good stuff and against the bad stuff" line isn't going to cut it.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Great post Hoaxie. :thumbsup:

If some group identifying themselves as some of sort of Scientology or Scientologists presented these views, I might have some respect for them:

1. Scientology has yet to produce any person who meets the many LRH definitions of "Clear" and "OT", and while it might someday, so far, it has NOT happened. We understand that there are many contradictions in Hubbard's writings and talks about such "advanced states".

2. Scientology can possibly help to assist some people in feeling better about life and themselves. This has nothing to do with "abilities gained" or "special powers".

3. We understand that there are MANY ways for any person to come to "feel better", and we do NOT hold the absolutist Hubbard view that "Scientology is the ONLY correct path", or that "ONLY an exact application of Scientology provides a way to free the spirit".

4. We hereby abandon and refuse to use any LRH directive that encourages Fair Game, lying, ARC manipulation, SP declares, disconnection, hard sell, deceitful ruin-finding drill, TR-L, extensive PR versus REAL products, fanatical KSW and related ideas, attempting to gain "agreement" DESPITE "truth" and "facts" to the contrary, attacking differing or critical views, intolerance of REAL "freedom of speech", and all statements where "positive ideals" are CLAIMED to be attainable with Scientology ("clearing a planet", "making a world free of crime, insanity and war", "we are the last free Men and Women in the Universe", etc.).

That is the SHORT list.

I know, it is much to hope for. Maybe someday . . . . . :confused2:

And, Marty's published view is FAR from that.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Great post Hoaxie. :thumbsup:

If some group identifying themselves as some of sort of Scientology or Scientologists presented these views, I might have some respect for them:

1. Scientology has yet to produce any person who meets the many LRH definitions of "Clear" and "OT", and while it might someday, so far, it has NOT happened. We understand that there are many contradictions in Hubbard's writings and talks about such "advanced states".

2. Scientology can possibly help to assist some people in feeling better about life and themselves. This has nothing to do with "abilities gained" or "special powers".

3. We understand that there are MANY ways for any person to come to "feel better", and we do NOT hold the absolutist Hubbard view that "Scientology is the ONLY correct path", or that "ONLY an exact application of Scientology provides a way to free the spirit".

4. We hereby abandon and refuse to use any LRH directive that encourages Fair Game, lying, ARC manipulation, SP declares, disconnection, hard sell, deceitful ruin-finding drill, TR-L, extensive PR versus REAL products, fanatical KSW and related ideas, attempting to gain "agreement" DESPITE "truth" and "facts" to the contrary, attacking differing or critical views, intolerance of REAL "freedom of speech", and all statements where "positive ideals" are CLAIMED to be attainable with Scientology ("clearing a planet", "making a world free of crime, insanity and war", "we are the last free Men and Women in the Universe", etc.).

That is the SHORT list.

I know, it is much to hope for. Maybe someday . . . . . :confused2:

And, Marty's published view is FAR from that.


Nice SHORT LIST, there bud!

And....

CREED OF AN INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST


1. Scientology has yet to produce any person who meets the many LRH definitions of "Clear" and "OT", and while it might someday, so far, it has NOT happened. We understand that there are many contradictions in Hubbard's writings and talks about such "advanced states".

2. Scientology can possibly help to assist some people in feeling better about life and themselves. This has nothing to do with "abilities gained" or "special powers".

3. We understand that there are MANY ways for any person to come to "feel better", and we do NOT hold the absolutist Hubbard view that "Scientology is the ONLY correct path", or that "ONLY an exact application of Scientology provides a way to free the spirit".

4. We hereby abandon and refuse to use any LRH directive that encourages Fair Game, lying, ARC manipulation, SP declares, disconnection, hard sell, deceitful ruin-finding drill, TR-L, extensive PR versus REAL products, fanatical KSW and related ideas, attempting to gain "agreement" DESPITE "truth" and "facts" to the contrary, attacking differing or critical views, intolerance of REAL "freedom of speech", and all statements where "positive ideals" are CLAIMED to be attainable with Scientology ("clearing a planet", "making a world free of crime, insanity and war", "we are the last free Men and Women in the Universe", etc.).


5. We of the Indie Church of Scientology believe that all men have the alienable right to say what they really think about Ron Hubbard the total freedom tech.

6. We of the Indie Church of Scientology believe that men have the alienable right to alienate other Indie Scientologists by no longer fighting aliens.
 
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