7-1 PREDICTIONS for the Village Voice Top 25 Crippling C of $

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
What he wants is less important than the consequences of what he does. Moxon and Davis presumably don't want to cripple Scientology either, but they do.

Marty was crowing about the media coverage of the SquirrelBusters being bad PR for Miscavige, but non-Scentologists don't look at those videos and think, "Man, those Church of Scientology people acting under orders of David Miscavige are nuts". They think, "Man, Scientologists are nuts."

Despite all his goals of rehabilitating the image of Hubbard and Scientology, I think he is doing further harm to both.

And for this, I salute him and think he should be included in the list. :)

One of the many problems with the Cof$ is they are still operating off of old policies that may have worked at one time but no longer work or work against them. I remember from the HQS course I believe that the policies to run an organization were subject to change, and were always subordinate to goals, purposes and objectices, and that policies were there to forward goals, purposes, and objectives. Now setting aside the "tech" side of Scientology ... that is, regardless if it works or not or to what degree ... Marty WOULD be following the HubTurd, at least the written version of the HubTurd, if unworkable policies were set aside ... such as disconnection, fair game, freeloader debts, the RPF, heavy ethics, constant junk mailing without updating mailing lists, etc.

Pete
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Paulette Cooper was THE PIONEER of the "Scientology critic movement"! :thumbsup:

She boldly went where nobody had gone before. And cleared a new path through very rough woods that many others have since followed in some way and to some degree.

(I may be wrong in her being the first. There might have been another who came out with a book before her.)

Cyril Vosper
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
25. M&M
24. Headleys
23. Bruce Hines
22. Jeff Hawkins
21. Scooter
20. Alonzo
19. Bea Kiddo
18. Amy Scobee
17. John Peeler
16. Nancy Many
15. Scarlet Hanna
14. Joe Harrington
13. Janet Reitman
12. Russel Miller
11. Tory
10. Anonymous
9. Andreas Heldal- Lund
8. Carmel Underwood
7. Graham Berry
6. Emma
5. Dennis Erlich
4. Arnie Lerma
3. Larry Brennan
2. Nick Xenophon
1. Gerry Armstrong

it is hard to rank them all so many good people, so much heart ache. But Gerry is, in my eyes, Number 1 in a walk.
 

Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
WBM came in at #7

Good story about him and why he originally got interested in Scientology and became a critic of the cult in the first place.
Definitely worth reading!
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin...cientology.php


oh goodie!!!!!!!!! Congratulations, Markie!! :happydance::yes::clap:

And thanks, Mick....interesting list.
No question re Gerry....I see him /and his counter-part: LRH
As w/out Hubbard...we would NOT be having this conversation
or this web site.

:rose:

Tory/Magoo
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I n spite of all the wonderful people and their often times heroic actions in standing up, I'm going to be the odd man and say I think the singular most crippling thing to scientology thus far has been the internet.

The internet has provided the avenue to deliver these massive blows to scientology in a way no method of communication has before.

Paulette Coopers book - and others was great.
The TV shows and reports were great.
Protests had gone on for years until Anon showed up.

The biggie that got the word out? The internet.

Example, Tory ( no last name needed ! ) has done incredible work in person and through YouTube. I suspect most of us know that due to the 'net.

I am not distracting from any of the amazing work any number of people have damn near dedicated their lives to .... just saying the internet has the via to allow the word to get out. Circa 1990 I remember the good work Jerry and Hanna Whitfield were doing. The talks of Steve Hassan. CAN gefore it got killed by scn. Cynthia Kisser did good work, too.....and countless others.

Perhaps it will be the courts that have the last word on and put scientology out of business.

I salute and bow to all who have had a hand - and continue to have a hand or voice - or voice in bringing this monster called scientology down.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Al Gore may have invented scientology and just be hiding out as an out of favor ( among sane people ) politican... who is making a ton of money for himself.


:lol:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)

oh goodie!!!!!!!!! Congratulations, Markie!! :happydance::yes::clap:

And thanks, Mick....interesting list.
No question re Gerry....I see him /and his counter-part: LRH
As w/out Hubbard...we would NOT be having this conversation
or this web site.

:rose:

Tory/Magoo

And I cannot believe that I left Kevin Mackey off the damned list!! Dear oh dear.

I agree with you about Hubbard in one way, it's true we would not be having this conversation without him, but if I had my druthers we would NOT be having this conversation at all ... it would have been better if he had just spent his time being the simple con artist he was and stuck to ripping off people like Parsons.

I cannot put Hubbard on the same level as any f the people on the list - they are people who have tried to do right. Hubbard never did.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
<snip>
I cannot put Hubbard on the same level as any of the people on the list - they are people who have tried to do right. Hubbard never did.

That is a powerful, and true, statement.

One of those things posted that I'll always remember : the delination !

Thank you !
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
I forgot a very important person

Charles Manson, "There was an E-meter at the Spahn Ranch"

The quote above is by Paul Krassner, publisher of The Realist, from the introduction to Peter Lavenda's book III of Sinister Forcesseries, A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft" "The Manson Secret".
 
Last edited:

Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
I n spite of all the wonderful people and their often times heroic actions in standing up, I'm going to be the odd man and say I think the singular most crippling thing to scientology thus far has been the internet.

The internet has provided the avenue to deliver these massive blows to scientology in a way no method of communication has before.

Sooooooooooo Very true, Auditor's Toad and thank you for bringing this up.

Also, Mick, I couldn't agree with you more. Putting it as you have...I agree,
100% and in my list..that I turned in of the Top 25...I left Hubbard off,
for that same reason. Thanks!

Love you ALL :rose:

Tory/Magoo
 

GreyWolf

Gold Meritorious Patron
Auditor's Toad....I don't know you, nor have I ever met
Marty, in person. However, I have been to parties and spoken with people who not
only left in a matter of days, but went over to his Blog and posted their
names and that they've left C of $. This is HUGE for me,
as I've spent Years and years with literally a small handful of people willing to say their names,
let alone speak out.

You may not consider that much...I do. Is it ONLY because of Marty? Hell
no, and I've posted on his blog, for months ..the actual time track of the
critical movement...M and M being WAY at the end, after MUCH MUCH work
done by TONS of other people.

However, whether you like the man or hate the man is your choice.
To me..what matters is people getting OUT and Speaking OUT...and that
he has assisted with, no matter how you, or anyone else, feels about him.
This is based on what people now OUT have told me.

I'm with you in that yes, hopefully he shall expose more things he knows
about. This needs to be done, and I think it is being done...inch by inch.
It isn't a small matter...I never said it was, never will say it is. However,
how people come out is often way different than what you, or I may hope
for. All I can do is be thankful for what IS happening, and to date...a
Hell of a lot is happening that is great, around the world, thanks to many people.

Blessings to ALL :rose:

Tory/Magoo

Right you are Tory. Once someone is out, then they can make up their minds about the rest of it. Love ya Tory.

Rob
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
Some of the comments on the VV blog have expressed disappointment that it appear that Marty will rank higher on the list of 25 people crippling Scientology than (various people and groups already listed).

I understand that disappointment. It continues to fuel Marty's god complex. There is an alternative, however...

What if Rathbun doesn't feature in the list at all?

I'm not sure that Marty deserves a place in it. It's a list of people who are crippling Scientology. Poor old Rathbun isn't trying to cripple Scientology; fool that he is, he's trying to make it work, and 'save' it. He would tell you that the 'real' Scientology is happening at his Texas shack.

It's not a list of people bringing the Church of Scientology to an end, but Scientology as a whole. I think Marty(r) has unwittingly done a lot to show how creepy, cultish and imbecilic Scientology can make people... but he'll probably still be worshiping Hubbard long after everyone else has wised up, and stopped. KSW!

Time will tell. I'm betting on LRH for the number two slot (appropriate, if you think about it) and David Mismanage at number one. Possible honorable mention for embarrassingly enthusiastic has-been celebrities... but there are more than enough 'SPs' who still deserve a place.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Some of the comments on the VV blog have expressed disappointment that it appear that Marty will rank higher on the list of 25 people crippling Scientology than (various people and groups already listed).

I understand that disappointment. It continues to fuel Marty's god complex. There is an alternative, however...

What if Rathbun doesn't feature in the list at all?

I'm not sure that Marty deserves a place in it. It's a list of people who are crippling Scientology. Poor old Rathbun isn't trying to cripple Scientology; fool that he is, he's trying to make it work, and 'save' it. He would tell you that the 'real' Scientology is happening at his Texas shack.

It's not a list of people bringing the Church of Scientology to an end, but Scientology as a whole. I think Marty(r) has unwittingly done a lot to show how creepy, cultish and imbecilic Scientology can make people... but he'll probably still be worshiping Hubbard long after everyone else has wised up, and stopped. KSW!

Time will tell. I'm betting on LRH for the number two slot (appropriate, if you think about it) and David Mismanage at number one. Possible honorable mention for embarrassingly enthusiastic has-been celebrities... but there are more than enough 'SPs' who still deserve a place.

Marty IS having an effect on the version of the Scientology that has historically caused all of the trouble - the CHURCH of Scientology. As I see it, independents cannot and will not EVER cause anywhere near the abuse and harm that the organized Church excels at. If the Church were closed tomorrow, I doubt very much that ANY independents would EVER put together a "new" centrally-controlled version of Scientology that would be anywhere remotely close to the current RTC abomination. Time will tell. I could be wrong.

While the pattern for the abuse does certainly exist in Hubbard's exact subject materials, the simply truth is that outside of the official organization, many or most people simply choose to NOT apply directives like enforced disconnection, fair game, hard sell, ruin-finding, constant command intention push, severe KSW lunacy, etc. While SOME of these may appear in some form, the difference between how they occur outside of the CHURCH is FAR different than the institutionlized madness that exists in the CHURCH.

Marty IS trying to cripple Miscavige's Church of Scientology. It doesn't matter what Marty thinks, that he is trying to "help Scientology", because he is deluded. What he doesn't know WILL hurt him. What he doesn't realize is that the harms and faults he points out and brings to the attention of the media are actually faults and flaws with the very nature of Scientology itself (meaning that the problems occur because they exist as instructions in LRH writings and lectures). While he might see it differently, many others will not.

Step ONE is destroying the RTC Church of Scientology. If and when THAT happens, one can reevaluate the newly existing "Scientology situation and problem". I doubt it will be anything to loose any sleep over, and that anyone other than obsessive/compulsove types will think about much. Personally, if the C of S shut down tomorrow, I doubt I would be on ESMB much. As I see it, the RTC C of S is a mountain compared to a molehill that would be "independent Scientology without any C of S". The magnitude of difference betwen the two is tremendous.

It is similar to what happened wit Christianity. The SAME Bible and basic beliefs that fueled the torture and murder of the Spanish Inquisition also fuel modern wishy-washy Protestant religions. While the "pattern" for the abuses DID exist in the "subject of Christianity", as long as one INTERPRETS and chooses to PICK & CHOOSE how and what to apply, well, the actual "versions" differ tremendously. Without the CONTROL of the central Catholic Church, things were and remain different. Also, the Catholic Church CHANGED due to societal pressures. The same may happen with Scientology. If the RTC Church is presented with "changing its tune FOR REAL", or "be shut down", they might choose option two. Maybe not, because Hubbard's system, when taken as a WHOLE, isn't subject to much "altering".

I think Marty is on the list where he deserves to be. He IS harming the Church of Scientology, and THAT is a good thing. Though I suspect that his actions will have unintended consequences (from his viewpoint) that will be WORSE overall for "Scientology" as a whole.
 
Top