A brief breakdown of the 8 OT levels?

[RogerB]

Me Neither!

Roger B,
Thanks for the story, it is quite real to me. I've had a similar experience that I've told to some here on ESMB.
The first time it occurred I thought that I was having some kind of LSD flashback; everything disappeared, I tried to rub my eyes and found I didn't have any!
It took days for the PU to become acceptably solid again but the truth is, it's never been the same for me.

Me neither . . . .

When it "all materialized again" it was somehow less solid, more like an energy field type structure, and even to this day on occasion it shimmers.

But then, I don't mind that, for I know what's going on

Rog

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Continuity of perception...

Thanks again, Rog, for these insights!

Of interest to me is how the "piece" as-ises almost as quickly as I read it and I am left with a more "knowing nothingness" if that makes any sense at all!:confused2: Once or twice, the room here shifted around on me as I sorta chewed it around, sorted it out and swallowed...

Whoever reads it carefully, with understanding, might want to be prepared for some "disturbance in the force" so to speak.

It certainly hit me right between the eyes - in a most constructive and validative way. Thank you for writing it and thanks as well for your other postings.

I am afraid that very few are capable of truly duplicating your words...perhaps myself included.

Panda's post seemed "right on" - so I tacked it on too. :wink2:

Staying tuned,

EP

Whoa, this is a feisty thread!

Something that happened in September, 1963, might give a little useful data to some of you folks wrestling off in different directions for answers.

I was sharing digs with Max and Jenny Anderson at the time. Max was an old-time Scn. He’d done his HPA during the late 1950’s, and attended the Melbourne ACC.

Max and I used to sit up in to the wee hours of the morning after midnight chatting and philosophizing for hours on the tech and all related subjects while drinking bottomless cups of instant coffee.

This particular evening, about 2:00am, we were chatting about our spiritual relationship to/with the physical universe. (I’ll abbreviate it to PU—also saves me writing “MEST”)

This was of high interest to both of us, as Max is/was an industrial chemist by profession, and I very much into the biochemistry, chemical and physical-chemistry make up of the body and our spiritual energizing of it (physical-chemistry being that bridge between chemistry and quantum physics).

Anyway, this particular night I was particularly interested in the mechanics of “why the PU persisted.” After all, the Axioms of Scn have a lot to say about MEST and its creation and continuance, as does Hubbard in his various lectures and other writings.

Anyway, there I was, ruminating on all the Axioms, particularly Axioms 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 23, and especially Axioms 24 “Total ARC would bring about the vanishment of all mechanical conditions of existence.”
(PS: I have since come to the observation that the Axioms (many of them) are not all that precise or exactly correct, indeed there are some errors therein)

So, as I ruminated on all this, comparing it to my various experiences of being outside of the PU, and of on occasion having controlled aspects of it, and of even having done a death trip and back through it, I came to the conclusion that the PU is hung up because of a monster ARCX, which ARCX is so horrendous that we don’t dare go near it; and thus we do not get the actual truth of the PU and thus unwittingly (or otherwise) undo it, erase it or otherwise “as-is” it.

On experientially spotting this, something flashed and “popped”; and instantly I was sitting in a void!

No PU, no Max (or Max’s body), no Roger’s body, no kitchen, no house—no nothing! All was VOID.

It was rather surprising, to say the least.

However, I was perfectly aware of who I was, and that I was a spiritual Being, fully extant and having just done as I had just done. Interestingly enough, I also knew all my capabilities as a Being—I knew I could “postulate and perceive” just like the Axioms say; and I knew I was capable of thought. And I was aware of (having retained) all my accumulated knowledge and memories.

The only thing I seemed to be missing was a sense or perception of any physical orientation in the sense or context of time or space, though I was aware that sequence (as in sequence of thought or action) was important in this new, sudden condition. “Energy” and “Matter” in the physical sense did not exist, though “energy” in the form of life-force and emanated thought did.

My only problem was that I knew what I had just done was actually accidental, and not under my full knowing control. And I was aware that I had to get a lot more training and education before I’d be happy with this particular circumstance.

In fact, though, it was a little unnerving because I saw or thought it possible I could actually lose control of everything (self and it) in this scenario with my current (then) lack of full knowledge of what I had my hands on.

During this moment of feeling “unnerved” and unsettled, I began reaching for “anchor-points” or “dimension-points” so I could stabilize myself; and I then began to perceive and connect to what I recognized as other spiritual Beings. One of them was Max . . . he was is stark terror. He just simply was vibrating in some sort of shock. (In retrospect, I’d say it was probably a frantic, rapid reach and withdraw.)

Thus I resolved to “bring it all back” in order that I could “complete my education” in the matter of handling the PU and things related to what had happened.

So I reached out to know what would bring it back. And then I realized this PU thing was a wanted thing by us . . . a solution; and there was (had been long standing) agreement on it.

And knowing the Axioms (verbatim, as I did) I suddenly realized the way to “get the PU back” would be to rekindled/trigger the agreement for it that laid behind its existence and persistence.

And I did that. I “postulated” to the infinity of all the other spiritual Beings I could contact that we should rekindle/restore the agreement for the PU to exist and for it to persist.

And it came back.

And there was Max in front of me across the kitchen table, white as a ghost and in stark terror.

“Don’t do that again!” he rasped out of his tight mouth.

And frankly, I really felt for him for I could imagine what it must have been like for him to have gone through what I was thinking he went though based on what I had experienced.

I could only reply, “I’m sorry mate. That was an accident. I didn’t mean to do it. I was simply looking at what must have been down at the bottom of the chain of what caused the PU to come into being and have persistence, and it vanished on me.”

“Don’t do that again,” he said urgently, but with less terror this time.

“No I won’t, I don’t have enough control of it to go near there again just yet.” And I meant it.

We then agreed it was time to get some snooze.

Next night, after dinner, seeing Max was now calm and in better spirits, and with Jenny present, I wanted to broach the subject of what Max had experienced the night before. I knew what I had experienced, but what happened for Max?

“Everything vanished. The PU vanished. There was nothing there, no room, no bodies, nothing!” He replied.

“Yep, that’s what happened for me too.” I replied.

“How did you bring it back?” he asked.

“I reached out for the agreement to have it persist and rekindled it,” I replied.

“Clever!” Max said appreciatively, wearing his big, crooked smile that showed me he was then truly back in good sorts.

Max Anderson may still be alive out there in Melbourne if any of you guys out there want to look him up. He’ll be in his mid to late seventies now.

Part 2 follows (since we don't like them too long on one page)

Part Two:

Only thing is, he got tangled up in the Mel Inquiry. The Scn enemies blackmailed him into giving evidence against Scn.

That was then, 1963. This is now. Since then, and having left the confines of “standard tech” and having “thought outside the box,” so to speak, I’ve learned a lot more about various things pertaining to the PU and its existence.

In 1977, when doing OTIII, I had trouble doing a Date/Locate on/for a “spiritual connection” I was dealing with at that level. As I was doing the drill, that you all know: “Was it before . . . ? After . . . . ?” something felt weird. Sort of gooey, foggy, blank. Up till then, date/locating had been a breeze—it was as though I could perceive the time-stream on which I was endeavoring to locate the position or date. But not this one.

The drill went on, and on, till eventually I ran out of numbers with which to compute; at which point I realized something was way off.

Trying to locate this Being’s stuck point in the context of the PU just did not “gel”. Then I got bright. “Is it outside of the PU?” YEP! But that didn’t quite resolve it.

“Is it an EARLIER universe?” Big time YEP in that!

Now I had to locate WHERE/WHEN earlier.

To cut the long story short, in order to get an idea of relative position in the span of existence we have enjoyed, I expanded my awareness and reach to a point I considered might be the periphery of my/our existence and found we have gone through a sequence of what one might call seven or eight spiritual universes earlier than this PU. (It happened, that the spiritual friend I was processing was hung up in the universe three earlier than the PU.)

I prefer to view these earlier universes as being domains of existence as limited and defined by our agreements on solutions to earlier problems and/or failed games. They run down in a sequence of decline to the present PU, which is itself a solution to the universes that preceded it. Thus, each of these “universes” is a relationship scenario that we have defaulted to as a result of trying to “solve” earlier upsets, chaos, et al with wrong, dumb answer solutions.

I wrote to LRH on all this, as the subject of earlier universes was not in the tech at that time. For those with a memory of the OT correction lists, you’ll remember my finding of “Earlier Universe?” was added to the OTIII correction list after my CSW to LRH.

So, what else did I learn in all this that might be useful to you?

Well, long, long, long ago we as individuals found each other in a hugely loving, total ARC relationship. It was quite magical and, compared to what we had known before, a hugely empowering ascension experience. How this came about, I have to say, I don’t have enough knowledge or exact perception to as yet make comment.

(Here I can see all the conflicting views blasting back at me . . . these on the issue of are we part of a whole to begin with that broke up? Etc., etc. That, I honestly don’t know at this stage. I am only passing on what I have personally seen and experienced and processed. I am not entering here any conjecture or intellectual supposition.)

But, for various reasons it would be wrong to go into here, this magical union of co-empowering existence declined as the harmony lessened. Eventually, we got so pissed, we shattered the relationship. (Hey, anyone who’s gone through a divorce knows what that’s about!) This was an ARCX of colossal and painful proportions.

This ARCX is the ARCX at the bottom of the chain or sequence of similar upsets and ARCXs that I contacted back in 1963 that undid for me and Max the then persisting PU.

The PU, by the way, is not a “closed system” as the physicists claim. Their yap about “entropy” is rather way off. The PU is charged by its juxtaposition to us as spirit, the energizer. Also, as far as I can tell, the PU is composed out of the out-of-control, life-force debris we have rejected as “not us” and littered the “time trail” of our existence with.

It is also my observation that all of these universes actually are within us as infinite Beings. That is, we are infinite in scope of Beingness and without limit. But, the error we have made is that we manifested games and relationships within that infiniteness and then focused down into or onto those games and relationships. Eventually, we managed to get ourselves stuck down “there” in them, and now think that everything is bigger than us! Ho hum . . . dig out time!

So, having read all the various opinions and efforts at intellectualizing on this thread, my only comment other than the above is: be true to what you have experienced, perceived and found to be true; and for God’s sake honor the truth of you, the spiritual YOU.

Roger

Roger B,
Thanks for the story, it is quite real to me. I've had a similar experience that I've told to some here on ESMB.
The first time it occurred I thought that I was having some kind of LSD flashback; everything disappeared, I tried to rub my eyes and found I didn't have any!
It took days for the PU to become acceptably solid again but the truth is, it's never been the same for me.

 

[Wisened One]

Interesting Thread, everyone!

And why do I feel sorta....funny, wispy and after reading Roger's 2-part story of his experiences? :ghost:

 

[lionheart]

<snip>

I think many other religions do have a concept of unwinding a GPM. They take apart the ensnarement of the soul in their own way. It seems like some of the Gnostics may have meditated on dichotemies. (pairs of opposites in life) The Tao..There is no up without a down, dark without the light. There is a marriage in these things. In Hinduism in the Vedas attention is payed to the idea that the universe is acted. The actors and the play are one. In Zen you stretch your mind with Koans like "what is the sound of one hand clapping." I guess they all strive to free you from mis-association from that which you are not. You can't bite your own teeth or look at your own eyeballs. (without a mirror)

There are also simple non-religious techniques that address these concepts.

For dichotomies you could take a look at "holistic releasing" from the Sedona Method. This is a great non-dualistic technique for discharging the illusion of opposites.

A great series of techniques for freeing you from mis-association with what you are not is "headlessness" (headless.org) which goes through simple, free exercises to show what is really here where you thought your head was!

I have found them much easier than the complicated, upper scn levels, which can tend to fixate you in opposite illusions (spirit/matter, cause/effect) and can create an illusion of what you are.

That's been my experience anyway. If anyone wants to bypass the complexity of all these so-called OT levels, they could do worse than check these two things out.

 

[Zinjifar]

But, face it, to so so would offer no solace in the eternal desire to rehabilitate the Scientology Franchise and make it look less silly that one fell for it.

Zinj

 

[lionheart]

But, face it, to so so would offer no solace in the eternal desire to rehabilitate the Scientology Franchise and make it look less silly that one fell for it.

Zinj

True. But who needs solace really?

I was very, very silly to fall for Ron's con! But so what?

I get what you are saying. To me there is a focus on this thread in finding some "truth" in Hubbard's con.

Much more liberating to tell oneself "It was a con - now it is time for me to move on!"

 

[Mark A. Baker]

When auditing "PCs" (on the "grades") outside the C of S. I'd do background reading on the processes which had been neatly "quaded up" for the standard lower grades. Sometimes I'd detour from the standard program and run an old 1950s problems or help process. (And a few other things.)

The most dramatic change occurred with I ran one "PC" on a 1958 'help process' (5 way bracket I think), that addressed a "hot" (L/N derived) identity. It was actually a precursor of what became (needlessly complicated, IMO) "GPM" auditing.

The result was that I had no choice but to call it a "Clear" as a form of acknowledgement. Something major had occured. I sent the person to a nearby break-away Mission to have his "Clear state validated." Of course, they recognized only CC Clears and Dianetic Clears and used the 'Dianetic Clear Special Intensive' with its series of leading-questions about "Dianetic Clears," etc. It really was an unnecessary action, but the auditor was flexible and handled it well, knowing this was an unusual case. The "PC" was BIG and stable, and couldn't care less about "mental image pictures," etc. Still, he easily made it through, and all was well.

IMO, he was really done with all auditing at that time. Nonetheless, I carried on and completed his grades, and also did a few other actions.

According to an old timer and "insider" (Hubbard's 1950s editor), Hubbard was surprised at the positive results from some of his 1950s procedures (1954 -1958). And this part of Scientology, IMO, is where Scientology was at its best.

Apparently, Hubbard was "doing something else" (Hidden Agenda) so the idea that someone might derive all the benefit available from auditing in a few days or weeks, and then that was it, was not acceptable. It had to be dragged out for cult recruitment and financial reasons. So level after level were developed along with the endless "Grade Chart."

And then was added confidentiality and mystery, and other "head games" that glue people to Scientology, and its "Grade Chart," to this day.

I enjoyed this post, V. A good use of the tech.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

There is no such thing as a fully closed system. Godel showed it to be an impossibility. The "universe" - no matter your definition of it - is certainly not a closed system.

Inappropriate reference, Leon. Godel dealt with logical formalisms. The concept of "closure" is restrictive in this sense. His conclusions can only be properly drawn in reference to such structures. Analogous ideas may be applicable to non-formal systems but they are not directly derivable from Godel's work.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Alan]

I not going to try to reconstruct it by memory at this time, but if you search through Tech Volume #3, in and around the material on "help," the "rock," and "problems," you'll probably come across it. There was a lot of experimentation, and "theory," around the 1958 period, with Hubbard having major input from others, to whom he gave little or no credit, however, at least he wrote the stuff down, if only to toot his own horn.

By the time we reached "Grade 1," I had audited this particular person for some time, preliminary to formally starting the "Grade Chart," and he was in pretty good shape. This person had wanted ARC S/W on anything and everything under the sun, moon, and stars, and I obliged, and he was probably the equivalent a "Grade 4 release" by the time we finished with the very expanded rendition of ARC S/W, which had been preceded by some pretty creative outdoor 'Objectives', and a few other odds and ends, all from the 1950s, or earlier, if one were to include some other pre-1950 non-Scientology mental exercises.

The essence of it was finding the person's current main identity (which was listed, and that's not the rules-top-heavy Listing and Nulling procedure that Hubbard goes on about in numerous tapes), but simply asking a question, and looking for an item, that is THE "hot" item. When you find it, the "PC" will let you know that it's the item, it's not difficult to determine.

Once the item (identity) is obtained, a follow up question looks for another terminal (identity) that would be a problem for, or overwhelm, or dominate, the first identity. Once this other identity is located, then "help" is run on that terminal (identity).

"How could a (the person's main "identity") help (this other dominant - source of problems - identity?) And "help" doesn't mean propitiate, but to assume a causative position with regard this other problem-causing terminal, which helps that terminal.

Hope this is of some use.

What you are describing Veda is "RocK" handling - the "Rock" was the beings greatest creation - a people pleasing creation.

Some beings were or are stuck in compulsively mocking up this creation - some are not - some need to be brought up to re-creating the "Rock".

Running the "Rock" is equivalent to bringing the being up to being a fomula one type operator - capable of great speed, etc. - but now you need to perform on the most demanding race tracks of life.

Alan

 

[Hatshepsut]

There are also simple non-religious techniques that address these concepts.

For dichotomies you could take a look at "holistic releasing" from the Sedona Method. This is a great non-dualistic technique for discharging the illusion of opposites.

A great series of techniques for freeing you from mis-association with what you are not is "headlessness" (headless.org) which goes through simple, free exercises to show what is really here where you thought your head was!

I have found them much easier than the complicated, upper scn levels, which can tend to fixate you in opposite illusions (spirit/matter, cause/effect) and can create an illusion of what you are.

That's been my experience anyway. If anyone wants to bypass the complexity of all these so-called OT levels, they could do worse than check these two things out.

www.headless.org click on videos. Douglas Harding

You're batting 100 with me I remember this from WAY back. I used these techniques a long long time ago when I was a youngster.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Well ... I'll be ...

EP Ethics particle
Whoever reads it carefully, with understanding, might want to be prepared for some "disturbance in the force" so to speak.

It certainly hit me right between the eyes - in a most constructive and validative way. Thank you for writing it and thanks as well for your other postings.

nuff said .... (am experiencing some 'disturbance in the force' ... as we speak ... in a very constructive and validitive way .... ).

Gotta go (need a lay down) ... ta ta for now ....

 

[lionheart]

www.headless.org click on videos. Douglas Harding

You're batting 100 with me I remember this from WAY back. I used these techniques a long long time ago when I was a youngster.

It could be full circle for you. Back to using what you did before Scn! But now you would have the experience and knowledge gained from the mistakes and successes of Scn!

I heard of Headlessness through the Incredible String Band but it was too mysterious and unknowable for me and so I followed them into Scn.

Did some good, did some harm. For more than a decade.

After leaving Scn I discovered the simple releasing techniques of Sedona, they were fantastic and sooooo simple compared to Scn (I had been a class IV auditor) then I re-found headlessness and understood it this time and lost my head!

Both these techniques were very easy for me to do - thanks to low-level scn and for me they completely by-passed the desire or supposed need to handle terms/opterms, implants and entities.

I had regained the best gains from Scn with understanding and the ability to re-polish them whenever I want.

I think I was very lucky never to have done any of the confidential levels, form where I observe they do tend to stick people in, for me, undesirable states like "wanting to be cause" and "wanting to escape MEST". These are just one side of the illusion of polarity.

For me being effect is a natural and wonderful thing and possibly why we are here. And the physical universe is a glorious, wonderful part of me, just as valid as what is here right where I am.

 

[Hatshepsut]

For me being effect is a natural and wonderful thing and possibly why we are here. And the physical universe is a glorious, wonderful part of me, just as valid as what is here right where I am.

For me being effect is still difficult. I have to shake off my control issues. There's been so much BAD control.

I am proud of the fact that I arrived at the conclusion that being a human being is RICH. In this universe others are jealous. I bet we'd be surprised to find out who is battling for the right to live through us vicariously. We're the cats ass. And we have the ringside seats.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

This thread has me mired in incredulity!

What with Dart making the universe disappear? - And not as a private 'perception' to him, but 'causing' his mate in the same room to experience it too! - Telepathic? - Real?

One effect of all this is that the vaunted OT levels are 'validated'. There's something to it after all!!??.. Ok..

But I never knew any OT's who were in fact OT's.. They might've hidden their abilities from me? (That IS policy, for some inscrutable reason.)

I don't think so.. They seemed quite as 'naturally' incapable of superman feats as I myself. They made stupid mistakes very convincingly, just like I did. They had misunderstandings and fixed viewpoints, and a marked reluctance to own up, just like I did.

So it's rather difficult for me to believe Dart.. And that kind of stories..

I have never observed or experienced any such thing myself..

There was a question in the OCA: "Does the physical universe seem unreal to you?", or something along those lines.. I always ticked, 'No'..

As for a massive ARC-break being the reason the physical universe is solid.. Well, that's a theory.. Some theory! - Is that 'applicable' in any way? Is it useful?

Or is it merely making you look for 'something' far down the 'time track'? - Something mysterious and dangerous..

Actually I recognise 'confusion technique'.. That's hypnotic technical term. The idea is to make you 'suggestible'. As in a trance state.

One thing that all this reminds me of.. The 'idea' that it's very desireable to be 'exterior' is suffusing Scientology. Indeed that the intire physical universe is useless, and we'd be better off without it. To exist in our native state as operetaing thetans.

I never got that.. I like our universe a lot! - I like to cuddle a warm female body.. If she was a native 'thetan' I suspect that I wouldn't appreciate her wild and woolly sexyness.

My OT friend explained about this at one time.. And I thought, privately because of the threat of 'ethics': "Well, why don't you just scoot out of the physical universe then? - Leave us who likes it here alone, goddamnit! - Just skedaddle, you magnifiscent OT you!"

 

[degraded being]

This thread has me mired in incredulity!

What with Dart making the universe disappear? - And not as a private 'perception' to him, but 'causing' his mate in the same room to experience it too! - Telepathic? - Real?One effect of all this is that the vaunted OT levels are 'validated'. There's something to it after all!!??.. Ok..
But I never knew any OT's who were in fact OT's.. They might've hidden their abilities from me? (That IS policy, for some inscrutable reason.)

I don't think so.. They seemed quite as 'naturally' incapable of superman feats as I myself. They made stupid mistakes very convincingly, just like I did. They had misunderstandings and fixed viewpoints, and a marked reluctance to own up, just like I did.

So it's rather difficult for me to believe Dart.. And that kind of stories..

I have never observed or experienced any such thing myself..

There was a question in the OCA: "Does the physical universe seem unreal to you?", or something along those lines.. I always ticked, 'No'..

As for a massive ARC-break being the reason the physical universe is solid.. Well, that's a theory.. Some theory! - Is that 'applicable' in any way? Is it useful?

Or is it merely making you look for 'something' far down the 'time track'? - Something mysterious and dangerous..
Actually I recognise 'confusion technique'.. That's hypnotic technical term. The idea is to make you 'suggestible'. As in a trance state.
One thing that all this reminds me of.. The 'idea' that it's very desireable to be 'exterior' is suffusing Scientology. Indeed that the intire physical universe is useless, and we'd be better off without it. To exist in our native state as operetaing thetans.
I never got that.. I like our universe a lot! - I like to cuddle a warm female body.. If she was a native 'thetan' I suspect that I wouldn't appreciate her wild and woolly sexyness.

My OT friend explained about this at one time.. And I thought, privately because of the threat of 'ethics': "Well, why don't you just scoot out of the physical universe then? - Leave us who likes it here alone, goddamnit! - Just skedaddle, you magnifiscent OT you!"

Hope you don't mind if I repeat you, LOUDLY.

 

[Panda Termint]

I really like this Universe, I must be weird!

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

So do I!

I really like this Universe, I must be weird!

Nah, Panda - not wierd! Just one of those improbable Oz animals. You know - like the "platty-puss"

 

[RogerB]

Me Too!

I really like this Universe, I must be weird!

Me too, Panda.

That's why I wanted it back

Rog

 

[RogerB]

Hatshesut, This Might Help

For me being effect is still difficult. I have to shake off my control issues. There's been so much BAD control.

I am proud of the fact that I arrived at the conclusion that being a human being is RICH. In this universe others are jealous. I bet we'd be surprised to find out who is battling for the right to live through us vicariously. We're the cats ass. And we have the ringside seats.

The notion of "being effect" spans a spectrum or scale rather like the old Tone Scale or Know to Mystery Scale.

At the top is the willingness and ability to (easily) receive/duplicate, that is, one does it knowingly and with volition. At the bottom there is an overwhelmed, out of control total effect. One routinely is operating across this spectrum and can have hang-ups at any level regarding various subjects or items.

A process you can run that will move you toward full volition on this is as follows:

1) Articulate what the feeling, mood or unpleasant sensation is that is connected to this "being effect is still difficult. . . . . control issues" you mention above.

Then, on the item found run:

a) "What part of (item found) are you willing to experience?"
b) "What part of (item found) would you rather not experience?"
Alternate these questions till you have a big win or are at cause over the item, then run:

a)"What part of (item found) are you willing to create?"
b) "What part of (item found) would you rather not create?"
Alternate these questions till you have a big win or are at cause over the item.

What also works well is:
a) "From where could a spiritual Being experience (named item)?"
This run repetitive to EP, then,
b) "From where could a spiritual Being create (named item)?"
This run repetitive to EP,

These processes restore your presence, volition, control, responsibility etc., relative to places, times, subjects, items, etc.

Roger

 

[RogerB]

This thread has me mired in incredulity!

What with Dart making the universe disappear? - And not as a private 'perception' to him, but 'causing' his mate in the same room to experience it too! - Telepathic? - Real?

One effect of all this is that the vaunted OT levels are 'validated'. There's something to it after all!!??.. Ok..

Well Schwimmy,

I see you did not take EP's advice to "read it carefully, with understanding."

Don't blame poor old-just-had-a-birthday-to-make-him-older-Dart for my brilliance . . . it was me, RogerB. (So much for the for the powers of duplication and understanding! )

And by the way, I don't think the vaunted "OT levels are validated" at all! And I have said so on earlier posts Indeed, they are a monster cock-up!

What my sweet little ditty-in-two-parts presented is the fact of some personal experience that I felt might be helpful to the good folks on this board and be of benefit for them to know.

As I said in my second sentence: it "might give a little useful data to some of you folks wrestling off in different directions for answers."

When I posted it, I knew very well some would get some help and benefit from it, and some would attack it and some would waste and ignore it.

You see, we choose, create and maintain for ourselves, or not, the condition we are in. And, you my Dear, may stay as you are!

Roger