A question for Indies/FZers

[Leon]

Yes indeed. And it is essentially an adult subject. It is for people who have been out in the world and have encountered their limitations and inabilities and who are willing to knuckle down and do something about it. But for the kids who have never lived, and the wifty-wafties who have never lived either - it's not for them.

 

[Infinite]

Yes indeed. And it is essentially an adult subject. It is for uninformed people [STRIKE]who have been out in the world and have encountered their limitations and inabilities and who are willing to knuckle down and do something about it[/STRIKE] to be taken advantage of by unregulated, untrained, unaccountable amateur psycho-therapists who base their "work" on the disproved and dangerous rantings of a criminal. [STRIKE]But for the kids who have never lived, and the wifty-wafties who have never lived either - it's not for them.[/STRIKE]

Tell it like it is, why dontchya.

 

[looker]

Well I for one would like to see any "kinder, gentler" scientology have an age limit for it's practice. 18 or 21 or whatever applies in different countries. There is nothing kind and gentle in the raising of children and teens within the 'tech'. Nothing.
At least an adult can go in with eyes open, and that is their adult choice.

From what I read, Yes many exes OT7s and 8s (more pubic than SO) have implied that the real effective tech is perhaps 20% of all the auditing tech ever published. The false hyper fanatical rush to get "this planet fixed" is soo far out of whack for money income purposes.

I have read some OT 7s and 8s post, Yes they had wins but each completion step was sort of a let down from all the hype. They also imply that all the "good" stuff could be condensed to perhaps 5 years at a fraction of the cost.

Probably TRs, Skinny Grades, some Power processing and perhaps 3 OT levels.

But WTFDIK.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I have read some OT 7s and 8s post, Yes they had wins but each completion step was sort of a let down from all the hype.

Never did those levels, but my own experience on the lower bridge does not conform to your statement. Some of it was less than the hype, but a great deal of what I accomplished through my auditing far exceeded anything I had hoped to address through auditing.

I see it very much as a matter of what is the pc's interest, rather than hubbard's perspective of what he should get from the various procedures & programs.

... They also imply that all the "good" stuff could be condensed to perhaps 5 years at a fraction of the cost. ...

I don't think it can be reduced to a fix schedule. In deed, I can see the value of a very open ended approach to auditing. Much of the lower bridge is generally useful as foundational or 'set-up' material. Most important is ultimately the need to address that upon which the pc has his attention.

Since interests change with perspective, as does the way a person runs any given process, a person who has done 'everything to be done' might nonetheless have an interest and find benefit in further auditing, even on processes he may have run earlier. It depends on the individual and what he wishes to address through auditing.


Mark A. Baker

 

[lkwdblds]

I am not an Indie or FZoner but it seems to me that as long as Slimy remains lurking, on Mars or in the belief system, can evil things be far away?

The FreeZone is restricted (and so 'nicer') ONLY because it doesn't have the organisation, the billion dollars, the buildings, the members, the boat, or the apostolic authority.

This seems to mean it can't and won't and doesn't thrive. Not big time. But when there are 10,000 Freezoners then watch evil things crawl back.

I have been exposed extensively to parts of the Freezone and the Independent field since July 4, 2010. I don't fully agree with your second paragraph above but do respect your opinion.

TWO TYPES of FREEZONERS and INDIES
My opinion is that there are 2 major classifications of Indies - Those that still believe fully in LRH and all of his TECH and those who freely criticize LRH and some of his tech but still believe that parts of his tech are workable. Your second paragraph above applies much more to the first group and applies almost not at all to those in the second group.

Neither of the two types runs their operations using all of the tech of managing by stats. There is no Thursday at 2:00 cut off time for stats, no big pushes to get the stats up at all costs. Also, I would say that in general, the gains of the clients usually take precedence over the desire to rake in large sums of money. When stat management is de-emphasized and the people's progress is placed ahead of the money, Indie and Freezone groups are going to be run much saner than Orgs are run.

As far as disconnection policy, I don't believe Indie and Freezone leaders will ever issue a formal disconnection notice against anyone but if a person has a friend or family member who is against a client receiving services, that client will probably be asked to minimize contact with their friend or family member while they are taking services.

A couple of areas where Freezone and Indy groups are weak are in training and in deciding what is to be run. Training is almost non-existent - I have only heard of one place that does any training and that is an Academy in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. Pretty much all of what is offered is auditing.

This leads to another criticism. A field auditor will only sell what they know how to deliver. Except for one auditor, who is a friend of mine, no one seems to do any testing to determine what to run on a person. Levels such as the L's or Power have a good name out in the field and field auditor's generally charge more for these services than for other auditing. Perhaps someone will come in and be started on Life Repair and then go on to Power.

There is no standard line up of what auditing is given to new people, while people who have left the "church" will receive different types of auditing depending on who they go to.

Money does factor in because Field auditors are more likely to push the more costly levels of auditing on their clients. Once the emphasis becomes mainly on money, then as your post above suggests, the door opens for many of the insanities of the Orgs to creep back into play. However, most Indies and Freezoners were hurt very badly in C of S and do make a major effort to see that their clients are treated fairly. I can't visualize things ever getting as insane as they are in the Orgs!
Lakey

 

[Megalomaniac]

...

What will happen after the independent groups grow larger & they need a "central" organisation? Who will run it? What will happen to people when they start to question it? Will there be a need for a Sea Org?

I feel very torn on this matter. I want people to be free to practice whatever self help / new agey stuff they want to practice. But I also don't want to see the same shit being done to people all over again once the Indie movement grows larger.

Call it a witch hunt if you like. I think it's an important thing to be asked.

Emma,

It's not a question of if, it's just a matter of time. If not with Scientology, then with some similar belief system, we will very likely meet a cult again. When it happens, we can't blame Terril or anyone else not directly involved. Therefore, at this time, we can not expect anyone to promise it won't happen.

And we'll have to do what we always do -- turn to the internet for solutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semper_ubi_sub_ubi

• semper liber -- always free Motto of the city of Victoria, British Columbia.
• semper vigilans -- always vigilant Motto of several institutions (Such as the US Air Force Auxiliary Civil Air Patrol). Also the motto of the city of San Diego, California.
• semper fortis -- always brave The unofficial motto of the United States Navy.
• semper paratus -- always prepared Motto of several institutions. One of the most well known institutions that uses this as a motto is the United States Coast Guard.

Failing that, we'd have to again turn to the internet for guidance:

• semper instans -- always threatening Motto of 846 NAS Royal Navy.
• semper idem -- always the same Motto of Underberg.
• semper reformanda -- always in need of being reformed :shark: A phrase deriving from the Nadere Reformatie movement in the seventeenth century Dutch Reformed Church and widely but informally used in Reformed and Presbyterian churches today. It refers to the conviction of certain Reformed Protestant theologians that the church must continually re-examine itself in order to maintain its purity of doctrine and practice. The term first appeared in print in Jodocus van Lodenstein, Beschouwinge van Zion (Contemplation of Zion), Amsterdam, 1674.
• semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat -- We're always in the manure; only the depth varies. Lord de Ramsey, House of Lords, 21 January 1998

Mac

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...


Welcome to the Church of Hoaxology's Sunday Service. I would like to give the same sermon today that i gave last Sunday. And each Sunday before that.......

Here is what is missing from Independent Scientology. And Freezone Scientology. And Ron's Org Scientology. And every other form of Scientology outside of the Church of Scientology.

They do not publish any specific listing of:

1. What specific results they are offering for the money being paid.

2. What HCOBs and HCOPLs that they apply that are different in any way from the Church of Scientology's HCOB's and HCOPL's.

3. What HCOBs and HCOPLs are cancelled in their practice.​

It's one of the dirty little secrets about Scientology outside of the CoS. They steadfastly avoid stating that they are changing or canceling sacred scripture--I assume for marketing/financial considerations. It would be against the survey buttons to just directly tell someone that they are altering or canceling the technology of L. Ron Hubbard.

But, this doesn't stop Indies and FZ from indirectly hinting, implying or insinuating that they don't use the "bad stuff" so that the customer infers it.

One of the holy marketing buttons of Scientologists has always been that they are delivering/receiving standard tech--the way Ron originally wrote/intended it.

Did anyone ever see Marty Ratbun publish a list of canceled HCOBs or HCOPLs? Sure he talks about what is wrong with Miscavige's use of LRH Fair Game, SP Declares, Disconnections and other standard tech--but does he give his field practice or followers a written list of revisions and cancellations? I don't think so. That would be blasphemy--a High Crime actually, unless Marty has canceled the policy on "High Crimes" and "Suppressive Acts".

Anyone ever see an Independent or FZ Scientologist publish "corrected" (re-written, alter-ised, off source, squirrel) versions of L. Ron Hubbard's scripture? How did that practitioner fare in the business of Scientology?

There are no regulatory controls or consumer protections afforded to the gray-zone delivery of Scientology. That is the same as the CoS, where bait-and-switch abounds, to say nothing of the fact that they never deliver the results that are promised in all of Hubbards books, lectures and technical bulletins.

When I see Indie and FZ Scientologists start to publish (yup, in writing) the canceled Hubbard scripture, then I will know that Scientology has changed.

Everything else is shore stories and acceptable truths.

CAVEAT EMPTOR
CAVEAT PRE-CLEAR
CAVEAT PRE-OT
CAVEAT PRE-DUPE
​

There is a reason that Scientology (CoS, Indie and otherwise) has so many secrets and such a multitude of techniques to hide information from their public. Both figuratively and literally they simply cannot afford to offer transparency to their paying customers.

 

[Lulu Belle]

There were two people - I'll call them Jack and Jill. They blew the Sea Org together in the early 90s. They were together almost 20 years. They were not married but they did have a child together.

During that 20 years they were total non-Scientologists. They lived a "wog" life, working, buying houses, etc.

A few years ago they were having some problems, and for whatever reason, they resurfaced. Jill started a relationship with another ex-staff who was totally out of Scn.

Jack wound up hooking up a few months later with someone who was a fairly new "indie". She was an OT VIII, had been a big FSM, and one of Marty's poster children who had made her big announcement on his blog. I'll call her Sue. Sue, by the way, made a very big play for Jack and aggressively chased him.

Jack, possibly because of personal problems he was having, or possibly because of his association with "indies", had a desire to do Scientology again. (Jill had no such desire.)

Jack and Jill, in spite of their breakup, up to this time had a very good relationship. Suddenly, after Jack hooked up with Sue, he stopped speaking to Jill and also cut off all but the minimum communication to their child. When he had to see Jill he acted very cold and distant and extremely non-communicative. Pretty much like a Scientologist who is in a position of having to talk to someone they think is an SP.

What appears to have happened is that Sue did an "ethics handling" on Jack with the conclusion that Jill was the suppressive on his case. Jack then appears to have disconnected from Jill.

This is obviously conjecture and I couldn't absolutely prove this. But I know the three individuals involved and I personally have no doubt that this is exactly what happened. Sue was very jealous of Jill, and she didn't want Jack to have anything to do with her. So, being the great OT VIII that she was, she got him to see that he needed to disconnect from her.

You will never convince me that just because someone is an "indie" they will not use any piece of any "tech" they want when it suits their purpose.

I think it's just as inaccurate to say indies "never" practice the "bad" parts of Scientology as it is to say they are always "as bad" as COS. I'm sure some are better than others, but I am very skeptical about the idea that someone who was in COS for years and is now out somehow manages to purge all this bad stuff from their behavior. It's part of the fabric of Scientology.

 

[Reasonable]

There were two people - I'll call them Jack and Jill. They blew the Sea Org together in the early 90s. They were together almost 20 years. They were not married but they did have a child together.

During that 20 years they were total non-Scientologists. They lived a "wog" life, working, buying houses, etc.

A few years ago they were having some problems, and for whatever reason, they resurfaced. Jill started a relationship with another ex-staff who was totally out of Scn.

Jack wound up hooking up a few months later with someone who was a fairly new "indie". She was an OT VIII, had been a big FSM, and one of Marty's poster children who had made her big announcement on his blog. I'll call her Sue. Sue, by the way, made a very big play for Jack and aggressively chased him.

Jack, possibly because of personal problems he was having, or possibly because of his association with "indies", had a desire to do Scientology again. (Jill had no such desire.)

Jack and Jill, in spite of their breakup, up to this time had a very good relationship. Suddenly, after Jack hooked up with Sue, he stopped speaking to Jill and also cut off all but the minimum communication to their child. When he had to see Jill he acted very cold and distant and extremely non-communicative. Pretty much like a Scientologist who is in a position of having to talk to someone they think is an SP.

What appears to have happened is that Sue did an "ethics handling" on Jack with the conclusion that Jill was the suppressive on his case. Jack then appears to have disconnected from Jill.

This is obviously conjecture and I couldn't absolutely prove this. But I know the three individuals involved and I personally have no doubt that this is exactly what happened. Sue was very jealous of Jill, and she didn't want Jack to have anything to do with her. So, being the great OT VIII that she was, she got him to see that he needed to disconnect from her.

You will never convince me that just because someone is an "indie" they will not use any piece of any "tech" they want when it suits their purpose.

I think it's just as inaccurate to say indies "never" practice the "bad" parts of Scientology as it is to say they are always "as bad" as COS. I'm sure some are better than others, but I am very skeptical about the idea that someone who was in COS for years and is now out somehow manages to purge all this bad stuff from their behavior. It's part of the fabric of Scientology.

The difference between this case and Cof S is that Sue was not able to have every scientologist ostrisize Jill, she didn't get Jill's children and family to disconnect. Jill didn't get her reputation ruined and lose her job. She was not harrased by private investigators, Jill was not denied auditing (if she wanted it).
This was just a case of one jealous woman using anything at her disposal to get what she wanted.

Indies have no power becasue they are a loose association and not a tightly would group and that is why they are not dangerous. Individuals may do bad things but that is the person not the group

 

[Panda Termint]

I take Marty's words as meaning exactly what they say.

Lol, that sounds like an adventurous approach.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Well I for one would like to see any "kinder, gentler" scientology have an age limit for it's practice. 18 or 21 or whatever applies in different countries. There is nothing kind and gentle in the raising of children and teens within the 'tech'. Nothing.
At least an adult can go in with eyes open, and that is their adult choice.

I've yet to hear of any FZ or Indie Scn'ist trying to recruit or reg minors.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I've yet to hear of any FZ or Indie Scn'ist trying to recruit or reg minors.

Raising children with the tek is indoctrination ... there is no recruiting or regging involved, nor was it mentioned by Free to shine.

 

[Claire Swazey]

There were two people - I'll call them Jack and Jill. They blew the Sea Org together in the early 90s. They were together almost 20 years. They were not married but they did have a child together.

During that 20 years they were total non-Scientologists. They lived a "wog" life, working, buying houses, etc.

A few years ago they were having some problems, and for whatever reason, they resurfaced. Jill started a relationship with another ex-staff who was totally out of Scn.

Jack wound up hooking up a few months later with someone who was a fairly new "indie". She was an OT VIII, had been a big FSM, and one of Marty's poster children who had made her big announcement on his blog. I'll call her Sue. Sue, by the way, made a very big play for Jack and aggressively chased him.

Jack, possibly because of personal problems he was having, or possibly because of his association with "indies", had a desire to do Scientology again. (Jill had no such desire.)

Jack and Jill, in spite of their breakup, up to this time had a very good relationship. Suddenly, after Jack hooked up with Sue, he stopped speaking to Jill and also cut off all but the minimum communication to their child. When he had to see Jill he acted very cold and distant and extremely non-communicative. Pretty much like a Scientologist who is in a position of having to talk to someone they think is an SP.

What appears to have happened is that Sue did an "ethics handling" on Jack with the conclusion that Jill was the suppressive on his case. Jack then appears to have disconnected from Jill.

This is obviously conjecture and I couldn't absolutely prove this. But I know the three individuals involved and I personally have no doubt that this is exactly what happened. Sue was very jealous of Jill, and she didn't want Jack to have anything to do with her. So, being the great OT VIII that she was, she got him to see that he needed to disconnect from her.

You will never convince me that just because someone is an "indie" they will not use any piece of any "tech" they want when it suits their purpose.

I think it's just as inaccurate to say indies "never" practice the "bad" parts of Scientology as it is to say they are always "as bad" as COS. I'm sure some are better than others, but I am very skeptical about the idea that someone who was in COS for years and is now out somehow manages to purge all this bad stuff from their behavior. It's part of the fabric of Scientology.

The account you give above is of a CofS handling of/against an Indie.

And, of course, you never ever have any venue in all the world- no person- no one- no nuttin'- where you never have a bad thing happen or someone never doing anything bad.

Which is why Terril phrased one of his posts as he did which then, IMO, elicited a rather strong reaction from at least one person.

What concerns me is that this variability of humanity, the fact that sometimes you get bad apples or good ones who sometimes do something unfair or uncool or make a mistake (just like every single one of us...) that this is going to be thought of, by some, as proof of thingie thingie FZ baaaaad...

And some of commentary on this thread kind of bears it out, hence my comments yesterday.

 

[Claire Swazey]

I also think Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu churches are also problematic. Centralized structures. Several of them have factions that do shunning. Indoctrination of the young. Sexual predation.

Some of it probably is due to centralization and some of it is most assuredly due to innate beliefs that are problematic.

There's truly nothing new under the sun.

 

[secretiveoldfag]

Well I for one would like to see any "kinder, gentler" scientology have an age limit for it's practice. 18 or 21 or whatever applies in different countries. There is nothing kind and gentle in the raising of children and teens within the 'tech'. Nothing.
At least an adult can go in with eyes open, and that is their adult choice.

No matter how many people believe Hubbard spoke truth, nothing in the world can make him a war hero or a nuclear scientist. No matter how many people believe Dianetics can change your life and save the planet, it remains a fraud.

Hubbard was not just a fraud but he used various techniques notably hypnotic techniques to get people to believe him. Adults don't go into Scientology with their eyes open. The very first few courses give them a new vision, as intended. Ten days is enough to get hooked. There is nothing kind or gentle about Scientology in any shape or form. It's an oxymoron. Hubard didn't give a monkey's for anyone else, no matter what age they were.

 

[Smilla]

There's at least one bad barrel in every apple. All religions have one or two hats to pull out of their rabbits. Apples and pears are both fruits, and everybody has been eaten by one or the other at some point. So why the witch hunt? Jeez - stop saying things, will ya.

 

[Claire Swazey]

But why should I? It's a valid response to posts made on this thread. And, Smilla, it's not like you never repeat yourself. You've done so many times.

And, come to think of it, many of the things said here by others have been said many times before here.

And so it goes.

 

[Smilla]

But why should I? It's a valid response to posts made on this thread. And, Smilla, it's not like you never repeat yourself. You've done so many times.

And, come to think of it, many of the things said here by others have been said many times before here.

And so it goes.

Oh I didn't mrean you should be quiet, I was channeling another user.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Oh I didn't mrean you should be quiet, I was channeling another user.

Well, I know one thing. I wouldn't want to see you quiet(ed). I've been really liking a lot of your posts lately.

And the ones I don't like? Ehhh...doesn't matter. I also dislike walnuts, whereas many people love them.

 

[lkwdblds]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not witch hunting.

I asked the question because it needed to be asked. There are a hundred more questions that need to be asked too.

Unlike most people around here, I'm not opposed to a "kinder, gentler" Scientology. I know hundreds & hundreds of people who truly believe that Scientology works, that it has worked for them & who believe they can help others by using it. Most of these people (99%) are really well intended and truly want to help others. I don't care if these folks get together & audit each other. I wish them well.

BUT I do care about what kind of "new" Scientology they intend to build. Will it start out all well intentioned and then morph into the same destructive organisation that we fight today? Is it inevitable that it will? Hubbard DID write the bulletins & policies that CAUSE the shittiness we see today. It wasn't Miscavige.

What will happen after the independent groups grow larger & they need a "central" organisation? Who will run it? What will happen to people when they start to question it? Will there be a need for a Sea Org?

I feel very torn on this matter. I want people to be free to practice whatever self help / new agey stuff they want to practice. But I also don't want to see the same shit being done to people all over again once the Indie movement grows larger.

Call it a witch hunt if you like. I think it's an important thing to be asked.

I attended the Freezone and Indy "convention" in Las Vegas last December. There was one fairly large group there attending and that was the Ron's Org group headed up by Max and Erica Hauri.

According to their speeches, which are now on youtube, the Hauri's were in the Sea Org for some years, became disenchanted with it but still wanted to practice Scientology and so formed the Ron's Org group in their native country of Switzerland. Their organization grew several organizations in Germany, Switzerland and in some other European centers and was pretty stable and was expanding. The number of active members was around 400 people.

Scientology started in Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union and had developed some sizeable groups in Moscow, St. Petersberg and Vladivostok in Russia as well as a group in the Ukraine which is no longer part of Russia but is a separate country. Total combined membership was a bit over 1,000 members.

I don't know the full story but the C of S was made to pull out of Russia leave these people behind but the 1,000 people still wanted to practice Scientology. An SOS was sent to the Hauri's and they accepted an offer to move to Russia and take control of the Russian groups and merge them into their Ron's Org network, forming a combined organization of some 1,400 public.

How is it run? Like so many Indy groups, they pick a cut off date for LRH materials. I don't remember the date they mentioned but perhaps it was 1981. In any case, they will use only books and tapes published on or before that date. The impression I got was that they are running full scientology type Orgs. They believe in KSW, all the management policies, etc. They are of the school that all the ills of scientology originated with DM and that Hubbard is a saint.

The Hauri's brought a large contingent of about 40 Russians and 12 Europeans with them to the convention. These would be the "nice" Indy Scientologists. It is run in a friendly manner probably similar to how old St. Hill was run in the early 1960's.

Max Hauri has that "dedicated glare" in his eye and probably runs a very tight ship. His wife Erica is on an equal rank with him and she reminded me a little of Yvonne Jentzsch, extremely friendly and caring with a bright bubbly personality.

Both Hauri's were hurt badly by C of S and are trying to run an upbeat organization with no disconnection policies, no crush regging, no lies being fed to the public, etc. but make no mistake about it, their group is being run as a full on Hubbard type Org. So far, knock on wood, all the parishioners are extremely upbeat and happy. We will have to wait to see how Indy Org's of this nature progress.
Lakey