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A question for Indies/FZers

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
My concern about the witch hunting was due to the fact that I've seen a number of threads about Terril. Even ones that started out mildly often turned out pretty acerbic.

I'm not saying the questions weren't valid or shouldn't be asked. Far from it. But I saw a couple rather angry responses here and I thought "Here we go again".

(Shrugging) I've always always always said that the FZ has its problems and that all talking points are grist for the mills of conversation and debate here and elsewhere.
That stance isn't going to change.

I'm protective of Terril. The reasons for this are that he's my friend. He scared the crap out of me when I was still in CofS (I swear I almost wrote Cunt for CofS. Is that Freudian or is it that I hate typing on laptops?) when he and I were on a.r.s. together and he was all like, what about those people being forced to run around poles and I was like, what the fuck, leave me alone. Those are the first posts I read that he wrote. Posts about the evil cult.

The other thing is that he was there when I was going through rough times with my having to decide to leave the cult, to allow the expulsion and to put up with the stupid calls summoning me to the org for handlings. And he was there for me when I got my goldenrod. And later, when my folks died.

There're probably very few of us who do not get protective about good friends or champion them in posts or conversations that we thought- rightly or wrongly- might be going kind of cattywampus.

Plus, Didi has a plumey tail.

Ok, I'm gonna shut the fuck up and go to sleep. I worked 11 hours today, came home and am going on a trip tomorrow and I felt like I had to cook a bunch of stuff for J to have while I was gone. I should probably crash and finish packing in the a.m.

Glad you guys are exploring these issues. We all have our individual ways of approaching these things. We left the idiots who wanted to quash our individuality in the dust.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
My concern about the witch hunting was due to the fact that I've seen a number of threads about Terril. Even ones that started out mildly often turned out pretty acerbic.

I'm not saying the questions weren't valid or shouldn't be asked. Far from it. But I saw a couple rather angry responses here and I thought "Here we go again".

(Shrugging) I've always always always said that the FZ has its problems and that all talking points are grist for the mills of conversation and debate here and elsewhere.
That stance isn't going to change.

I'm protective of Terril. The reasons for this are that he's my friend. He scared the crap out of me when I was still in CofS (I swear I almost wrote Cunt for CofS. Is that Freudian or is it that I hate typing on laptops?) when he and I were on a.r.s. together and he was all like, what about those people being forced to run around poles and I was like, what the fuck, leave me alone. Those are the first posts I read that he wrote. Posts about the evil cult.

The other thing is that he was there when I was going through rough times with my having to decide to leave the cult, to allow the expulsion and to put up with the stupid calls summoning me to the org for handlings. And he was there for me when I got my goldenrod. And later, when my folks died.

There're probably very few of us who do not get protective about good friends or champion them in posts or conversations that we thought- rightly or wrongly- might be going kind of cattywampus.

Plus, Didi has a plumey tail.

Ok, I'm gonna shut the fuck up and go to sleep. I worked 11 hours today, came home and am going on a trip tomorrow and I felt like I had to cook a bunch of stuff for J to have while I was gone. I should probably crash and finish packing in the a.m.

Glad you guys are exploring these issues. We all have our individual ways of approaching these things. We left the idiots who wanted to quash our individuality in the dust.

Claire. In all honesty, I think you'd be doing yourself and Terril a favour if you dropped the 'bodyguard' strategy. Terril is an adult, and quite capable of looking after himself. He's got skin as thick as an elephants.

People will post whatever they want to post, and as long as the content falls within the rules of this forum, they are quite entitled to.

Let Terril speak for himself - he's quite capable of doing so.

Try it and see...

This is posted with good intentions. I hope you can see that.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know about anyone else but I'm not witch hunting.

I asked the question because it needed to be asked. There are a hundred more questions that need to be asked too.

Unlike most people around here, I'm not opposed to a "kinder, gentler" Scientology. I know hundreds & hundreds of people who truly believe that Scientology works, that it has worked for them & who believe they can help others by using it. Most of these people (99%) are really well intended and truly want to help others. I don't care if these folks get together & audit each other. I wish them well.

BUT I do care about what kind of "new" Scientology they intend to build. Will it start out all well intentioned and then morph into the same destructive organisation that we fight today? Is it inevitable that it will? Hubbard DID write the bulletins & policies that CAUSE the shittiness we see today. It wasn't Miscavige.

What will happen after the independent groups grow larger & they need a "central" organisation? Who will run it? What will happen to people when they start to question it? Will there be a need for a Sea Org?

I feel very torn on this matter. I want people to be free to practice whatever self help / new agey stuff they want to practice. But I also don't want to see the same shit being done to people all over again once the Indie movement grows larger.

Call it a witch hunt if you like. I think it's an important thing to be asked.

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
I attended the Freezone and Indy "convention" in Las Vegas last December. There was one fairly large group there attending and that was the Ron's Org group headed up by Max and Erica Hauri.

According to their speeches, which are now on youtube, the Hauri's were in the Sea Org for some years, became disenchanted with it but still wanted to practice Scientology and so formed the Ron's Org group in their native country of Switzerland. Their organization grew several organizations in Germany, Switzerland and in some other European centers and was pretty stable and was expanding. The number of active members was around 400 people.

Scientology started in Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union and had developed some sizeable groups in Moscow, St. Petersberg and Vladivostok in Russia as well as a group in the Ukraine which is no longer part of Russia but is a separate country. Total combined membership was a bit over 1,000 members.

I don't know the full story but the C of S was made to pull out of Russia leave these people behind but the 1,000 people still wanted to practice Scientology. An SOS was sent to the Hauri's and they accepted an offer to move to Russia and take control of the Russian groups and merge them into their Ron's Org network, forming a combined organization of some 1,400 public.

How is it run? Like so many Indy groups, they pick a cut off date for LRH materials. I don't remember the date they mentioned but perhaps it was 1981. In any case, they will use only books and tapes published on or before that date. The impression I got was that they are running full scientology type Orgs. They believe in KSW, all the management policies, etc. They are of the school that all the ills of scientology originated with DM and that Hubbard is a saint.

The Hauri's brought a large contingent of about 40 Russians and 12 Europeans with them to the convention. These would be the "nice" Indy Scientologists. It is run in a friendly manner probably similar to how old St. Hill was run in the early 1960's.

Max Hauri has that "dedicated glare" in his eye and probably runs a very tight ship. His wife Erica is on an equal rank with him and she reminded me a little of Yvonne Jentzsch, extremely friendly and caring with a bright bubbly personality.

Both Hauri's were hurt badly by C of S and are trying to run an upbeat organization with no disconnection policies, no crush regging, no lies being fed to the public, etc. but make no mistake about it, their group is being run as a full on Hubbard type Org. So far, knock on wood, all the parishioners are extremely upbeat and happy. We will have to wait to see how Indy Org's of this nature progress.
Lakey

The Cof$ in Russia was shut down, the Russian Police banned the books as extremist.Whilst I am not in favor of banning books, I can see why they did it and I do support them in doing so if it means the people's of Russia will not be conned and indoctrinated into the world of L. Ron Hubbard.Russian people have had enough to contend with over the years, without totalitarian cult movements shoved down their throats.

Following Hubbard's doctrines before the 1980's will not not do Indies/Freezoners any favors as this is as indoctrinated as it gets. It is many of these old time Sea Orgers that have had their brains frazzled beyond help.Quite frankly I am appalled that they think by using these works they will be helping people.

Do they indoctrinate their children, their grandchildren and their great grand children? If so then they are perpetuating the abuse that is scientology as written by Hubbard.

Yvonne Gillham Jentzsch was a lovely, bubbly lady who was very friendly to everyone, I know because I knew her, but that does not take away the fact that she died of an untreated brain tumor because she believed "auditing" would help her with that. It did not.How many other people believe "auditing" will treat cancer, arthritis, no need to to wear glasses, asthma or any other amount of ailments, and why do they believe this? Because L. Ron Hubbard told them so. Read Dianetics.If L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology helps people so much, how come so many people have died so young through "auditing" therapy? Through following the doctrines set out by Hubbard before 1980. Why do you think that is?

I watched quite a few of the Indie videos last year, and I see the same thing I saw at St. Hill in the 60s early 70s. Exactly the same.

Hopefully the many Russians that read my blog will be reading this thread also.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Well I for one would like to see any "kinder, gentler" scientology have an age limit for it's practice. 18 or 21 or whatever applies in different countries. There is nothing kind and gentle in the raising of children and teens within the 'tech'. Nothing.
At least an adult can go in with eyes open, and that is their adult choice.

I would also like to see an age limit, though I doubt very much there is a kinder gentler Scientology anywhere. Unfortunately for budding Scientologists my age limit would be at least 30 years of age, when hopefully the person has gotten some kind of normalish world wide experiences in life.

Many people get into Cof$ at around the 18,19 and 20ish age group.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
You've got things slightly incorrect.

CO$ started in Russia with only book 1. Some of these people wanted to do scientology so asked Max and Otfried Krumholz to come to Russia and tell
them about it. This led to training camps delivering the old but good HQS course, and this was expanded upon and ended with Training camps on OT levels and auditor training. There is some 2-3000 people on ROs lines now.

CO$ is still operative in Russia, don't know much about them. I believe Moscow and St Petersberg became "ideal orgs".

As I said, I don't know the full story so thanks for filling it in. They must be growing fast if they are at 2,000 - 3,000 now, I am pretty sure they were saying between 1000 and 1100 at the convention last December. Those camps must really be working out for them.

As to your last paragraph, I quoted part of a Wikepedia article which shows the status of Scientology in every country:

Russia -The Church has been subjected to considerable pressure from the state in Russia.[45] In April 2007, the European Court of Human Rights ruled against Russia for repeatedly refusing to consider the Moscow Church of Scientology's application for the status of a legally valid religious association. The court found that the reasons given to deny re-registration of the church by the justice department and endorsed by the Moscow courts had no legal basis.[46][47]
In July 2007, the St. Petersburg City Court ordered that the city's Scientology center be closed for violating its charter by engaging in unlicensed health care services.[48] A court in Samara came to a similar decision in November 2008, closing down the activities of the local center for practicing without a license.[49]
In September 2009, the European Court of Human Rights issued a binding ruling in favor of two Scientology branches in Surgut and Nizhnekamsk, which had been denied registration as "religious organizations."[50] The two organizations were awarded €20,000 in costs and damages.[50] The ruling, which cannot be appealed, said that Russia could not ban the Church of Scientology simply because it did not have a long history in the country.[50]
In 2010 some of the works of L. Ron Hubbard were included into the Federal List of banned extremist materials [2] but removed on 3 May 2011.[3]Federal List of banned extremist materials Yet another such attempt was made by prosecutor in mid-2011 but was unsuccessful from the very beginning. [4]


It seems as if the Russian government is doing everything it can to keep Scientology from operating as a religion in Russia but the European Court of Human Rights is attempting to over rule the Russian government. There is a see-saw battle going on between those two institutions. Here is a link to all the Ideal Orgs in the world, I did find one for Moscow but did not see one for St. Petersburg -
http://www.scientology.org/churches/churches-of-scientology.html
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
The Cof$ in Russia was shut down, the Russian Police banned the books as extremist.Whilst I am not in favor of banning books, I can see why they did it and I do support them in doing so if it means the people's of Russia will not be conned and indoctrinated into the world of L. Ron Hubbard.Russian people have had enough to contend with over the years, without totalitarian cult movements shoved down their throats.

Following Hubbard's doctrines before the 1980's will not not do Indies/Freezoners any favors as this is as indoctrinated as it gets. It is many of these old time Sea Orgers that have had their brains frazzled beyond help.Quite frankly I am appalled that they think by using these works they will be helping people.

Do they indoctrinate their children, their grandchildren and their great grand children? If so then they are perpetuating the abuse that is scientology as written by Hubbard.

Yvonne Gillham Jentzsch was a lovely, bubbly lady who was very friendly to everyone, I know because I knew her, but that does not take away the fact that she died of an untreated brain tumor because she believed "auditing" would help her with that. It did not.How many other people believe "auditing" will treat cancer, arthritis, no need to to wear glasses, asthma or any other amount of ailments, and why do they believe this? Because L. Ron Hubbard told them so. Read Dianetics.If L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology helps people so much, how come so many people have died so young through "auditing" therapy? Through following the doctrines set out by Hubbard before 1980. Why do you think that is?

I watched quite a few of the Indie videos last year, and I see the same thing I saw at St. Hill in the 60s early 70s. Exactly the same.

Hopefully the many Russians that read my blog will be reading this thread also.

You are preaching to the choir! I share many of your opinions. I was just responding to the OP of this thread and trying to provide some objective information on how Indy and Freezones are doing as they grow. I am not in any way promoting these Orgs.

I hope you distinguish that making an effort to provide some info on Freezone and Indy Orgs is not the same thing as promoting them. Peace.
Lakey
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
I am sure I at times must be preaching to the choir, however I want it known far and wide I will NOT back down on this EVER!!!

The damage done to children is unforgivable, and until Scientologists can take that into account, I personally can find NO forgiveness.

Look at those children in Clear Water, Florida. They are there because Ex Sea Org will not speak out, this could have ended long ago. I for one am deeply ashamed I did not speak out long ago.Some of us could end this here and now, but they don't! I want to know WHY? And, don't give me all this shit about disconnection, because I have not known my family nearly my entire life, I am 55 years old and I know hardly anything about my family due to disconnection from the age of 12 years old. Forced on me by L. Ron Hubbard.

Wake up and get a fucking clue!

I feel for Alexander more than you will ever know, because the poor kid knew what it was like to be alone, without a family, because Scientology doesn't do family's it does the the greatest good for the group, and families don't enter into it.Hip Hip Hooray!
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I am sure I at times must be preaching to the choir, however I want it known far and wide I will NOT back down on this EVER!!!

The damage done to children is unforgivable, and until Scientologists can take that into account, I personally can find NO forgiveness.

Look at those children in Clear Water, Florida. They are there because Ex Sea Org will not speak out, this could have ended long ago. I for one am deeply ashamed I did not speak out long ago.Some of us could end this here and now, but they don't! I want to know WHY? And, don't give me all this shit about disconnection, because I have not known my family nearly my entire life, I am 55 years old and I know hardly anything about my family due to disconnection from the age of 12 years old. Forced on me by L. Ron Hubbard.

How do you think it could have been ended long ago, or could be ended now?

I share your shame in not having spoken out sooner.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
How do you think it could have been ended long ago, or could be ended now?

I share your shame in not having spoken out sooner.

First and foremost, I think every single Class VIII aboard the Apollo should have spoken out and gone to the authorities.In fact i think every single person who was aboard the Apollo from 1967 - 1975 and I am talking adults should have gone to the authorities, every last one of them. Have they, NO, just a handful. There were at least 250 people aboard when I was there, possibly more. there are about a dozen accounts from that time.

There are people that know very intimately about L. Ron Hubbard and the way it really was, AND I KNOW ALL ABOUT BRAINWASHING AND MIND CONTROL, and I also know a lot about comfort zones and how some lives are really flourishing and prospering and have been for some time now, we can reflect on the RPF and how being locked up was horrible to say the least, but now they have it made, against all the odds, so what does it matter that some scruffy little urchins have to go through what you did? You made it, but will they? Does that matter? YES, it fucking well does!

Do you really want more Alexander Jentzsches on your/our conscience. I don't! There are at least three of you out there that can do some major damage and stop this once and for all. You know it and I know it, so are you going to step up to the plate or are you going to continue to pretend you know nothing and let all those little Scientology children grow up without families, never knowing when the next sec check is coming, believing they are at fault and continuing to believe what they are doing is for the greatest good for a non existent Messiah, who was only in it for the money.

This is not aimed at you personally,Jquepublic. But it is aimed at three old friends.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
There are people that know very intimately about L. Ron Hubbard and the way it really was, AND I KNOW ALL ABOUT BRAINWASHING AND MIND CONTROL, and I also know a lot about comfort zones and how some lives are really flourishing and prospering and have been for some time now, we can reflect on the RPF and how being locked up was horrible to say the least, but now they have it made, against all the odds, so what does it matter that some scruffy little urchins have to go through what you did? You made it, but will they? Does that matter? YES, it fucking well does!

Do you really want more Alexander Jentzsches on your/our conscience. I don't! There are at least three of you out there that can do some major damage and stop this once and for all. You know it and I know it, so are you going to step up to the plate or are you going to continue to pretend you know nothing and let all those little Scientology children grow up without families, never knowing when the next sec check is coming, believing they are at fault and continuing to believe what they are doing is for the greatest good for a non existent Messiah, who was only in it for the money.

This is not aimed at you personally,Jquepublic. But it is aimed at three old friends.

I know at least 2 who were there who will never speak out, including someone put in the chain locker as a child. Why? Because they have "moved on" ... buried it so that they think it doesn't affect them. Oh but it does....
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sharone, I was their from Feb to July in 1971 doing the FEBC trip.

Not me nor anyone I knew were aware of the abuses you describe. I know I didn't - I learnt all I know of that from the internet. We saw you kids and from the often on the ship and you all looked happy and fed and looked after. We saw nothing to indicte that anything was amiss.

Sure, we were students locked down in HCI, but even so there were many times when we were out and about. I heard not a whisper of anything being wrong.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes Leon, that's one thing staff are good at doing, covering up bad shit.

I'm starting a new religion, it's called scientology (although another name might be better.) The first order of business in my "Book 1" will be to lay out the facts about the devil-spawn implanter that went by the name L Ron Hubbard.

Then I'll lay out the 0.01% of old-scientology "tech" necessary to take one all the way (we're talking a handful of processes). I'll inform you of the fact that it will take 100,000 hours to get there, maybe longer. You'll do 99.999 - 100% of that all on your own, no "C/S"ing in the new scientology. If ya get stuck along the way somebody will surely led you a hand. No ethics or admin tech. No status, no levels, no boats, no armies or navies, no "source". Might cost ya a few hundred $ all told.

See if that fat bastard Hubbard had done it right it'd all have been just fine. But, I'll let you in on a little secret, he was not Xenu, nope good ol Ronny boy was the most accomplished MASTER IMPLANTER in this part of the galaxy (maybe that explains some thing about him, eh?). So of course he just couldn't rise above his own evil purposes and do anything truly decent, had to enslave us while selling us freedom.
And to think it COULD be done all along, but it sure as hell can't happen in a few hundred or even 10,000 hours.

Maybe I can get the fz and indies to join since their scientology don't cut it.

And no, I'm NOT joking. :omg:
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Claire. In all honesty, I think you'd be doing yourself and Terril a favour if you dropped the 'bodyguard' strategy. Terril is an adult, and quite capable of looking after himself. He's got skin as thick as an elephants.

People will post whatever they want to post, and as long as the content falls within the rules of this forum, they are quite entitled to.

Let Terril speak for himself - he's quite capable of doing so.

Try it and see...

This is posted with good intentions. I hope you can see that.

Sure. But for me, it's not a strategy, any more than it is for anyone who defends a friend on the internet. He speaks up for himself. And sometimes I post, too. Those are additional posts, not posts written instead of or in lieu of.

And sometimes he's gone to bat for me, too. And we all know I've never ever had a problem speaking for myself.

I appreciate your candor and civiility. I always have. When I think of you, I think "there's someone who posts out of concern, caring and conviction.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Sure. But for me, it's not a strategy, any more than it is for anyone who defends a friend on the internet. He speaks up for himself. And sometimes I post, too. Those are additional posts, not posts written instead of or in lieu of.

And sometimes he's gone to bat for me, too. And we all know I've never ever had a problem speaking for myself.

I appreciate your candor and civiility. I always have. When I think of you, I think "there's someone who posts out of concern, caring and conviction.

Thanks for that Claire.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I am sure I at times must be preaching to the choir, however I want it known far and wide I will NOT back down on this EVER!!!

The damage done to children is unforgivable, and until Scientologists can take that into account, I personally can find NO forgiveness.

Look at those children in Clear Water, Florida. They are there because Ex Sea Org will not speak out, this could have ended long ago. I for one am deeply ashamed I did not speak out long ago.Some of us could end this here and now, but they don't! I want to know WHY? And, don't give me all this shit about disconnection, because I have not known my family nearly my entire life, I am 55 years old and I know hardly anything about my family due to disconnection from the age of 12 years old. Forced on me by L. Ron Hubbard.

Wake up and get a fucking clue!

I feel for Alexander more than you will ever know, because the poor kid knew what it was like to be alone, without a family, because Scientology doesn't do family's it does the the greatest good for the group, and families don't enter into it.Hip Hip Hooray!

"Wake up and get a fucking clue!" For doing what, doing my best to answer the question first asked on this thread?

EXAMPLE: Someone posts the question, "Were pro Nazi groups in the USA growing or shrinking before the Pear Harbor attack forced them all to be shut down?"

Someone does a little research or a relative who was alive at the time has told them some info on the topic. They write back something like, "In the deep South, some of the groups were getting stronger, on the East Coast those groups were staying about the same but on the West Coast, they were declining (of course I'm making all of this up and really have no idea how those groups were doing).

You then write back, "Wake up and get a fucking clue!. The Nazi's were totally evil and separated families and eventually killed off hundreds of thousands of families."

What you say is true but it is not relevant to the question which was asked of the respondent. That's my only disagreement with you.

I'm very sympathetic to your plight and I believe that most of us on ESMB share your goals regarding the treatment of children in C of S and are working in our own ways to reach goals similar to yours, i.e. stopping C of S from mistreating children. Knowing that you have suffered much more than most of the rest of us at the hands of C of S I support you strongly in your endeavors.
Lakey
 
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