A sickness on this board.

[RogerB]

Yes, it is so nuts. In Scientology a condition of "doubt" is considered a "bad" thing. But, the truth is that an aware, honest and intelligent human being KNOWS to what a tremendous degree he or she does NOT KNOW about so MANY MANY things. As I grow older I INCREASE my uncertainty about very many things, day by day, and for the most part, other than things that might affect my life or immediate physical survival, I have lost any uncomfortableness about it. It simply doesn't bother me at all. To me, honest awareness must include a general awareness of what you DON'T KNOW. And there is FAR more of THAT, than what you imagine yourself "to know with certainty".

I find that "certainty", for most people, involves simply accepting some set of "data as true", and that most people prefer the comfort of a convenient delusion over the discomfort of doubt and uncertainty.

Gadfly,

Lucid and exact, as usual.

The truth is, even at the highest levels of of our Being, awareness and knowledge, there will always be lots unknown, uncertain or even "not" as in anti-known.

The trick is to be able to comfortably be aware of it, experience it, and to positively process it as a life action.

It's the reacting negatively toward it that does on in.

Rog

 

[uniquemand]

It is compulsion or inhibition that does one in, in my opinion.

People will differ about what the truth of anything is. People get in trouble when they cannot control themselves, when they cannot experience pleasure, when they cannot ignore a type of stimulus, etc.

Attention and intention are the basic abilities that a conscious being has. When these are compromised by compulsions and inhibitions, that being can become powerless.

 

[Gadfly]

Gadfly,

Lucid and exact, as usual.

The truth is, even at the highest levels of of our Being, awareness and knowledge, there will always be lots unknown, uncertain or even "not" as in anti-known.

The trick is to be able to comfortably be aware of it, experience it, and to positively process it as a life action.

It's the reacting negatively toward it that does on in.

Rog

Oh, I might add Rog, that I continue to also greatly enjoy the endless discovery of new facts, new things, new realities, etc. But, "certainty" has very little to do with it. I mean, I know about, am familiar with, can discuss intelligently, and have categorized careful observations of a GREAT MANY things, but even with all of that, "certainty" is basically meaningless to me. I don't need it, desire it, or have any concern for it. I "trust" my ability to observe, to remain largely unbiased, to anticipate the probable continuing behaviors of a great many people and things (from the smiling nod of the gas station attendant to the rotation of the planets around the sun), and to be able to learn new things as needed, but again, I am fully aware of the boundaries and limitations inherent to my own observations, knowledge and experience.

In a nutshell, I truly am in endless awe of the world and universe I have the privilege of participating with, BUT I am quite aware that my tiny utterly restrictive slice of all-that-is, while incredibly rich, involved, deep, expansive, widely-varied and also ever-changing and evolving, IS basically one grain of sand in the desert of all time and space as far as all possible ways to "know" are concerned.

I suppose it can be viewed in this way. What I place within the range of my own personal microscope and telescope remain "knowable" in the context of my own experience, education, and awareness, BUT there are FAR FAR MORE THINGS that fall OUTSIDE of the view of my own tools of perception and observation, if only because I simply haven't bothered to yet take the time to LOOK at any of so many alternative possible directions. But, one can be AWARE of that, or not. Sadly, too many people continue to suffer from the personal delusion that ones own small arbitrary "world view" IS "all that is", and that ones own myopic conceptual paradigm is somehow "all-inclusive" and "universal", when it is NOT THAT AT ALL.

From my experiences, participation with Scientology is one of many practices that CAUSES such "cognitive myopia", and also a false sense of "certainty" that is neither warranted nor even desirable. In dealings with real Scientologists, this "certainty" too often manifests to "normal people" as over-bearing arrogance, haughty condescension, and a grating attitude of "know-best". Those are some of the "products" of too much participation with Hubbard's nutty view of things.

Hubbard did it AGAIN. Did what? He very well and correctly described the "confusion and the stable datum". People will often accept ANY "fact", "statement" or "paradigm" IF IT REDUCES CONFUSION. It matters little whether any of it is "true" or "valid". The simple ACT of accepting some "set of facts" allows any person to reduce confusion. Hubbard explained that all quite well. And then, he presented and rammed down the throats of unsuspecting Scientology participants an entire largely arbitrary (and even false) paradigm that he labels "true", and which DOES very much act to reduce the confusion of believers. Hubbard knew of and well described THAT tendency and "law" of human beings. AS with so many things he well describes about human psychology, he then turned around and USED IT AGAINST YOU to further trap and control you. This delusional sense of "certainty" comes from accepting some set of ideas that ACT as YOUR "stable data". The trick isn't about discovering the "real and true stable data", but realizing that there ARE NO STABLE DATA (everything is changing, always), and that you DON'T ACTUALLY NEED ANY "STABLE DATA" TO BE QUITE HAPPY AND SECURE.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

There is a very effective counter-intelligence move that I'll call;

'Black noising the white noise.'

Let's take a totally fantastic scenario to illustrate this; Lets say there are ufo's from all over the galaxy invading us. The Guvment is in on it. Just like the Next Generation Star Trek episode.

What would you do if your were the aliens, and you didn't want to be discovered too soon, while you consolidated your power base?

You wouldn't try to directly discredit the reports that something strange was going on, that would just fuel that fire. What you would do is dump more reports of the same nature into the mix, trying to discredit the valid reports.

Oh, yeah! there are ufos! As a matter of fact, they are all green amazon woman, and they abducted me and made me their slave up in space for a few days!

You would promote laughing at anyone who took these kind of reports seriously. What fools!

You would bury any reports of your black activities under a mountain of 'white noise', hoping that by the time anyone figured out what you were doing, it would be too late.

I'm saying that this same technique, except with real scenarios used, is what's being done to us right now.

Comments?

ah but if someone did not have a real plan but wanted people to think there was a real plan wouldn't they post explanations like yours?

So the fact that some few people have fanatical beliefs about bizarre things somehow translates into "proof" especially if people say it is not true?

Interesting chain of logic you have going there.

As they say on skeptical boards - you are proving that pink unicorns do, in fact rule the earth from a spaceship circling Saturn.

 

[Atcause]

The trick is to be able to know who the sane contributors to the message board are from the insane time wasters.

You then spend your time reading the former and ignoring the later.

 

[Student of Trinity]

How do you make conspiracy theorists snap out of it?
How do you make cult members wake up?
How do you handle your ruin?

The belief that there must be some "workable tech" that will fix people from being screwed up is itself a holdover from Scientology. Everybody is screwed up in some way, I expect, at least to some extent. I do think people can help each other. But I don't think there's really anything like a "tech" for it.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The trick is to be able to know who the sane contributors to the message board are from the insane time wasters.

You then spend your time reading the former and ignoring the later.

Sounds great, but those two categories don't include everyone by a long shot.

The general idea of the start of this thread seems to be that people who believe 9/11 was an inside job and Obama's recent "birth certificate" was an obvious forgery, let's say, are "conspiracy nuts" and should be adjusted in some way to be made more like the regular guys who believe the consensus of the current mainstream press. Isn't that more or less the idea?

I can think of people here on both sides of those issues who I wouldn't describe as either sane contributors to the board or insane time wasters.

Paul

 

[Markus]

Disagreeing with me has nothing to do with it.

Constantly altering and misrepresenting what people say does (like you have just done)

So we can start with that: lying.

You are lying when you repeatedly try to convince others that I or anyone else said or believe something that they didn't say or believe.

Maybe I should put it another way...

If you repeatedly lie by trying to convince others that someone said something they didn't say...you may be a nutjob!

At this is where Scientology comes into it. Some cult members and some former cult members sometimes cannot understand what other people are saying to them.

They are assimilating what the other person says through the filter of their own prejudice.

The literalness people often develop from the use of Study Tech, that is, looking only at words and not at the context that those words are used to give them meaning is a factor too.

Veda's response of pointing I that I said "They' They, they," in a post is a perfect example. The context and grammar was right for my using the word "they."

But he could not understand the context and only saw the word "They," which is a bad word in the cult.

It is a bad word because the cult thinking doesn't consider context.

You lied when you implied to others that I accepted the authority of TSA.

You lied because what I said repeatedly is that I questioned your authority to know what is best for airline security.

Maybe you aren't intentionally trying to deceive people. Maybe you truly are sub-literate. You certainly shows signs of it.

But you just demonstrated what I was talking about in my opening post.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Right TAJ you are a bad SP simply because you used the word "they" so often. LRH was and is right.
Poor lost souls
Would it have been better if you would have named this poor lost souls who are still believing in Hubbards nonsense? Should you post a list of them here?
I don't get it - we are here to discuss our Scientology experiences - this is an "Ex Scientologist Message Board" so what is so bad in saying "I can not understand that anybody here can still be so stupid and believe in the so called "Technology" of this criminal con man ? I think that they must be sick."

Love
Makus

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Sounds great, but those two categories don't include everyone by a long shot.

The general idea of the start of this thread seems to be that people who believe 9/11 was an inside job and Obama's recent "birth certificate" was an obvious forgery, let's say, are "conspiracy nuts" and should be adjusted in some way to be made more like the regular guys who believe the consensus of the current mainstream press. Isn't that more or less the idea?

I can think of people here on both sides of those issues who I wouldn't describe as either sane contributors to the board or insane time wasters.

Paul

That is not the general idea at the start of this thread.

It was never a matter of who's information or data or viewpoint on particular matters is correct.

It is about the obsessive and fanatical belief in the rightness and superiority of what one believes.

And that fanaticism is a result of their person paradigm that they know better; that only they can correctly interpret facts.

They ignone a 1,000 facts and focus on opinions and interpretations about a few isolated facts.

It is not about getting at the truth. It is about proving they are superior to the average person. Only they know and see the truth.

It comes down to what a person thinks what his place is in the world.

They are self-appointed Ubermensch.

It keeps them from looking at the real state of their own their lives; that they are not only not smarter than everyone else, but sadly, inferior to most.

And the proof is they were cultists. They are only moderately literate. They are not smart. They were easily fooled.

Not a pleasant thing to see when one looks in the mirror.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Right TAJ you are a bad SP simply because you used the word "they" so often. LRH was and is right.
Poor lost souls
Would it have been better if you would have named this poor lost souls who are still believing in Hubbards nonsense? Should you post a list of them here?
snip...
Love
Makus

No. No goldenrods.

This is just my opinion based on my observations.

And based on the fact of what I had to face about myself.

I was once just like them.

When I finally admitted to myself that I did not have all the answers, I realized that I had no answers.

I didn't even have an idea of what were the right questions.

I realized that I was a zero.

I had to start from scratch. Not to find the answers, but to find the right questions.

I'm still looking.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Dulloldfart]

That is not the general idea at the start of this thread.

It was never a matter of who's information or data or viewpoint on particular matters is correct.

It is about the obsessive and fanatical belief in the rightness and superiority of what one believes.

And that fanaticism is a result of their person paradigm that they know better; that only they can correctly interpret facts.

They ignone a 1,000 facts and focus on opinions and interpretations about a few isolated facts.

It is not about getting at the truth. It is about proving they are superior to the average person. Only they know and see the truth.

It comes down to what a person thinks what his place is in the world.

They are self-appointed Ubermensch.

It keeps them from looking at the real state of their own their lives; that they are not only not smarter than everyone else, but sadly, inferior to most.

And the proof is they were cultists. They are only moderately literate. They are not smart. They were easily fooled.

Not a pleasant thing to see when one looks in the mirror.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Thanks for the response. I don't see any point in me commenting further on this.

Paul

 

[Rmack]

ah but if someone did not have a real plan but wanted people to think there was a real plan wouldn't they post explanations like yours?

So the fact that some few people have fanatical beliefs about bizarre things somehow translates into "proof" especially if people say it is not true?

Interesting chain of logic you have going there.

As they say on skeptical boards - you are proving that pink unicorns do, in fact rule the earth from a spaceship circling Saturn.

That's not what I said. That's the whole point of 'black noising the white noise'. It makes it very difficult to separate the complete nonsense from the truth.

Take 'bigfoot' 'sasquatch' or 'the abominable snowman' for instance. I don't believe it. I think there would have been some hard evidence by now, not just the hoaxes and unverified stories that makes up the so-called proof.

On the other hand, I've seen UFOs myself, so I know for a fact something odd is going on that we're not being told about, though I can easily see why someone could conclude that it's all a hoax from the huge volume of ridiculous stories that drown out the credible reports.

I think someone is 'black noising the white noise' on that.

 

[Petey C]

While I agree with some of TAJ says, I also think it's a fairly Americo-centric view that doesn't necessarily apply to other countries -- such as the one I live in, Australia. Maybe it's because we are so much smaller than the US. We may have the same proportion of people who are more willing to be persuaded by demagogues and radio jocks and conspiracy developers as the US does. But if that's true, they're not as visible or vocal as they are in the USA.

I don't know what the ESMB stats are but am willing to bet there are more Americans on board than other nationalities -- purely because Scn was more widespread in the US than anywhere else, and because of relative population numbers -- I don't believe the USA population can be matched by any other western country in which scientology has a presence.

So maybe what TAJ sees as a sickness on the Board is largely a feature of American life rather than intrinsic to scientology or ESMB.

I've lived and worked in Asia, the USA and Australia for long periods of time and thus have had time to understand their cultures. I see more wilful ignorance in America than in other countries I've lived in. I think America represents the best and the worst of everything; the best is so good that it's a great pity that the worst sits alongside of it.

 

[Kutta]

This is a fascinating thread. It touches on stuff that has given me pause to wonder since I've been on ESMB. :confused2::wink2: Please keep it going.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

While I agree with some of TAJ says, I also think it's a fairly Americo-centric view that doesn't necessarily apply to other countries -- such as the one I live in, Australia. Maybe it's because we are so much smaller than the US. We may have the same proportion of people who are more willing to be persuaded by demagogues and radio jocks and conspiracy developers as the US does. But if that's true, they're not as visible or vocal as they are in the USA.

I don't know what the ESMB stats are but am willing to bet there are more Americans on board than other nationalities -- purely because Scn was more widespread in the US than anywhere else, and because of relative population numbers -- I don't believe the USA population can be matched by any other western country in which scientology has a presence.

So maybe what TAJ sees as a sickness on the Board is largely a feature of American life rather than intrinsic to scientology or ESMB.

I've lived and worked in Asia, the USA and Australia for long periods of time and thus have had time to understand their cultures. I see more wilful ignorance in America than in other countries I've lived in. I think America represents the best and the worst of everything; the best is so good that it's a great pity that the worst sits alongside of it.

Well you may have a point here. The phenomenon I am talking about is more common among Americans and Brits, I think then Aussies. At lest here on the board.

The wilful ignorance is a perfect description of what I am talking about.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[RogerB]

While I agree with some of TAJ says, I also think it's a fairly Americo-centric view that doesn't necessarily apply to other countries -- such as the one I live in, Australia. Maybe it's because we are so much smaller than the US. We may have the same proportion of people who are more willing to be persuaded by demagogues and radio jocks and conspiracy developers as the US does. But if that's true, they're not as visible or vocal as they are in the USA.

I don't know what the ESMB stats are but am willing to bet there are more Americans on board than other nationalities -- purely because Scn was more widespread in the US than anywhere else, and because of relative population numbers -- I don't believe the USA population can be matched by any other western country in which scientology has a presence.

So maybe what TAJ sees as a sickness on the Board is largely a feature of American life rather than intrinsic to scientology or ESMB.

I've lived and worked in Asia, the USA and Australia for long periods of time and thus have had time to understand their cultures. I see more wilful ignorance in America than in other countries I've lived in. I think America represents the best and the worst of everything; the best is so good that it's a great pity that the worst sits alongside of it.

Well, Petey C, having been around this world more than a few times myself, I have to agree with your observation and comments.

And your comments particularly apply to those American University Grads who think what they get as the goods of education the best by doing it here.

It is a comparative joke to see what passes for college graduation here.

Let me cite a fact to make the point.

The 2003 US Department of Education, Adult Literacy Survey found that only, repeat that word, only, 31% of College Graduates could pass its standards of literacy competence.

In essence, the standard is that the person can read the London or New York Times newspapers and understand them due to their frequent use of punctuation and sentences containing numbers of concepts and such.

A lower level of literacy competence wherein the person could grasp a simple one clause declarative statement (no commas etc.,) was achieved by another 30+% . . . and the degrees of decline in literacy went on down all the way to functional illiteracy . . . . . and this among graduates!

To get a sense of how it can be, one benefits from going and experiencing other cultures and countries who are literacy accomplished.

To be honest, the most academically or scholastically arrogant I've met anywhere are here in America. Examples abound: Stephen Gould shouting down Rupert Sheldrake on the PBS TV program "A Glorious Accident" or Robert Gallo shouting down other scientists (and stealing the discovery of HIV from Luc Montagnier) (this shit I was privy to when I was connected to the AIDS scene as board member of one of its organizations in the late 1980's).

And by shouting down, I mean arrogantly shouting down, not discussing or expressing alternative points of view of input . . . but stunningly, rudely loudly, ridullingly shouting others down! Quite astounding.

R

 

[LongTimeGone]

The truth is out there!!! Unfortunately we lost it...

This just in:

Jun 07, 2011 8:01am

COULD there be any better fodder for Australia's conspiracy theorists? The Department of Defence has ''lost'' its X-Files.

For decades, Defence officials dutifully investigated an unknown number of UFO sightings being reported all over the country. Intelligence officers attached to the Royal Australian Air Force checked the known movement of aircraft against reported sightings, and politely responded by mail to everyone who claimed they saw floating lights or flat saucers or streaking vapour trails. Some of the files were marked as classified.

Last year, the British government released a large part of its dossier on unidentified flying objects after significant pressure from freedom- of-information applicants. More than 4000 pages of Defence Ministry documents, detailing 800 reported encounters during the 1980s and 1990s were posted online.

Fairfax sought access to the Australian version. But the response was more surprising than what the files might have contained - the material has largely gone missing.

The department spent two months searching its offices for files that would be captured by the Herald's FOI application, which sought a ''schedule of records held by the Department of Defence … which relate to unidentified flying objects''.

But in late May, the department's FOI assistant director, Natalie Carpenter, delivered a reply that seemed almost designed to set online chat rooms alight with conspiracy chatter.

The only file Defence was able to locate was titled ''Report on UFOs/Strange Occurrences and Phenomena in Woomera''; the others had been destroyed.

''We also discovered one [other] file, which had not been destroyed but could not be located,'' Ms Carpenter wrote.

''In an effort to retrieve this file our office conducted searches of the Defence Record Management System, National Archives Australia [Canberra], National Archives Australia [Chester Hill], Defence Archives Queanbeyan and Headquarters Air Command, RAAF Base Glenbrook.

''Despite searching these locations, the files could not be located and Headquarters Air Command formally advised that this file is deemed lost.''

Previous FOI applications for similar files had also been destroyed, she said, ''as is normal administrative procedure''.

What is left is sketchy at best - a handful of ancient press clippings and scattered pieces of formal government correspondence. The papers show that about six years ago, the Australian UFO Research Association was able to locate some files, now missing. The organisation's summary of the material is one of the few complete items left in the remaining dossier.

It shows there were a series of sightings from around the country and overseas, including people living in towns near Woomera, a weapons range.

One incident report released to the organisation that year was a detailed report of an object's flight path by Warrant Officer G.E. Millard in October 1952.

Though he was able to track its movement for 24 minutes via radar equipment, he couldn't actually see the target using the normal telescope attached to the radar. After extensive investigation, he concluded the anomaly was a snow cloud.

The UFO research group's report says ''to date we have found three Department of Supply files dealing with the topic of 'flying saucers' or UFOs''.

''The earliest file so far located in South Australia is from series D174, control symbol SA5281 titled 'Unusual Occurrences Flying Saucer at Woomera' with a date range of 1952-1955. It was originally classified 'Secret'. It is a 25-page file.''

In November 2000, the then defence chiefs decided the department would stop collecting UFO reports.

''For many years the RAAF was responsible for the handling of Unusual Aerial Sightings (UAS) at the official level,'' they wrote in a department-wide policy memo.

''This function ceased in 1996 after consideration of the scientific record suggested that there was no compelling reason for the RAAF to continue to devote resources to the recording and investigation of UAS.

''The ADF [Edit: Australian Defence Force] does not accept reports on UAS and does not attempt assignment of cause or allocation of reliability. Members of the community who seek to report UAS to ADF personnel are to be referred to their local police authorities in the first instance, or alternatively to seek contact numbers for civil Unidentified Flying Object research organisations from the relevant state telephone directory.'' The memo said the ADF did not affiliate with any civil UFO organisations.

Oops...

LTG

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Levels.
Can communicate with anyone about anything -and knows more than you.

Can recognise problems and make them vanish - and knows that you are a wog and therefore a problem.

Can do some other thing i have forgotten... hostilities of life? euphemism for evil doing? and knows how bad you are.

Can win the always right game because he is more right than Mr/s always right. And knows more than everybody and knows that evryone elses opinions about this are wrong.

Is now,... what do you fucking know? A Bloody Clear. And knows that all knowledge is determined by his Holy Clearness. Can "grant beingness" to all humanity because they can't help not knowing what Mr/s Clear knows. Cos they got banks.


OT levels Ability gained.= can now graduate to really fat cash cow with milk of pure stupidity. Knows that s/he can do fancy tricks. You can't criticise. You are still human. Humans don't know shit!

Higher OT levels. Knows that BTs have ruled, and that he who rules the BTs rules the world and the universes, including the knowledge universe because it's green and red on white. And Ron said. So there. Go fuck yourself if you can't duplicate what is real in my universe. Are you on lines? Are you declared?

Mental weakness. Feeblemindedness from having your intellect put through a blender.

Sorry, this one rang a bell with me, I've run up against that attitude.

The good news is, people can recover their critical thinking skills! Even when they are rusty from disuse... There is always hope!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

That's not what I said. That's the whole point of 'black noising the white noise'. It makes it very difficult to separate the complete nonsense from the truth.

Take 'bigfoot' 'sasquatch' or 'the abominable snowman' for instance. I don't believe it. I think there would have been some hard evidence by now, not just the hoaxes and unverified stories that makes up the so-called proof.

On the other hand, I've seen UFOs myself, so I know for a fact something odd is going on that we're not being told about, though I can easily see why someone could conclude that it's all a hoax from the huge volume of ridiculous stories that drown out the credible reports.

I think someone is 'black noising the white noise' on that.

Okay, maybe there is no Sasquatch or chupacabra...but the YETI??? How can we be sure...in all that snow and ice???

 

[Free to shine]

How does one learn anything except by exposure to new ideas and concepts?
Having set ideas and conclusions is not a "sickness", it is a result of conditioned thinking and of not having been allowed to explore concepts that fall outside the agreements of a group or personal experience.

Looking down on and scoffing at anyone who disagrees is a scientology concept!

The title "sickness on this board" really annoys me, like there is some virus that will affect posters in this community.

The whole idea of ESMB is to talk, discuss, debate, present views. When I started here, years ago now, along with many others I had no idea how to express myself and was only starting to explore issues 'outside the box'. If it were not for the discussions on many, many subjects I would still be as ignorant as I was then.

So let's display some awareness, patience and understanding for posters you disagree with. If you don't like the argument - get out of the arena.