A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard

lkwdblds

Crusader
The most interesting man in the world!

It makes sense that he was trying to create this image of being the most interesting man in the world. That would serve him for what he was trying to do.

Was that Ron in those beer commercials they are now showing? The most interesting man in the world, a bearded guy about 55 years old with these beautiful young super models fawning all over him, waiting for him to utter his nex pearl of wisdom. When he opens his mouth he says, in a distinguished Spanish accent reminiscent of Ricard Montalban, "I don't always drink beer but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis. Stay thirsty my friends!"
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
What a fine, fine posts, Fisherman!:thumbsup:

Much thanks to Kookaburra and Lakey, also.:thumbsup:

I have learned much from these posts.:yes:

I have read most of Durant's works, Plato’s Dialogues and most of the works you have referenced...you make fascinating points re: El Ron, Durant, Aristotle, et al.

I made four posts months ago on the long dead Power of Source thread (#’s 74, 78, 79 & 84) regarding my first-hand involvement with El Ron's "process" of "making technical breakthroughs" and what happened when actual technical experts in a discipline dealt with the results. Your analytic narratives and Kookaburra’s very valuable information foots seamlessly with what I observed first-hand.:coolwink:

Face:)
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Fisherman - to really see how we felt about Ron, you..

Fisherman, you almost have had to be a Scientologist yourself to understand how guys such as Face and I fell for LRH's shtick. We did not believe he was just a garden variety human being. It was sort of like he was a super human extra-terrestrial being who was sort of on loan to planet Earth from some other solar system, probably in this Galaxy. Hubbard wrote a series of books called Ol' Doc Methusala, and it had a guy "who was a soldier of light". There were supposed to be 76 of these scattered through the Galaxy and the main character in the book series was the one for this part of the Galaxy.

I figured that Hubbard was one of those type of beings, far superior to mortal men. Now that I know he was standard issue human being, I believe he had a real talent, more like a genius for culling key bits of data out of enormous seas of data. He talks about it a little on some of his earlier tapes. He says he quickly eliminates things which have not enlightened mankind but have actually entrapped them more. He let communism go on this bases, the same with capitalism, he did not like that either. He noticed that the longer lasting societies had some sort of concept of a diety so he incorportated that into his work. He felt that Western Science and Math had benefitted mankind and so he kept portions of that, he believed that Buddha had brought order to a huge part of Earth where only barbarism existed before, so he retained portions Buddhism. and so it went. You have got to give him credit for this ability. He had a genius for culling data.

You are not going to get from him double blind testing with placebos and peer review. He did not believe that those type of activities had given mankind enought of a boost to warrant using them. Perhaps that's why his studies seem very thin to you. He went more by anecdotal evidence and empirical evidence. If 25 people ran a process and they all cured their lumbago then the process must cure lumbago. He decreed it to be true and it was so, if only inside of Scientology Orgs.

I hope that helps.
Lakey
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lest we forget

I made several posts on the Apollo ’73 thread re: the Mary Sue factor. I honestly don’t think that the El Ron of the early ‘50’s to late ‘70’s may be properly, and fully, discussed without factoring in and including, to some degree, Mary Sue.

Off and on Mary Sue had subtle yet great influence with El Ron. She was much more a scholar than Hisself and had a Liberal Arts degree from a very good school (UT, Austin) earned during a period that Liberal Arts majors studied many of the “Classics” of human thought and experience.

Mary Sue was an avid, eclectic and excellent reader and I know for a fact that she often discussed the highlights and gist of what she was reading with El Ron, especially if it was pertinent to something El Ron was interested in or currently messing around with.

Mary Sue, to me, has become an invisible elephant in the corner of the room of most discussions of El Ron. I knew her…as much as El Ron sought to be bigger than life and out front, she sought to be in the background and pump up Hisself’s balloon. She was very young "country girl" when she married El Ron, and was producing his offspring for the first part of the marriage. As she matured she effectively charted her way into a position of power within Scn that was 2nd only to Hisself’s. As far as I'm concerned, she was a disciplined, resilient and smart cookie and no one was as devoted to El Ron as was Mary Sue.

Sadly, Garrison’s biography of El Ron will probably never be published…I think the title may be indicative of where Garrison was going and Mary Sue would have been a significant part of the story.

El Ron trusted Mary Sue, then later feared her, more than anyone else in the world.:yes:

Face:)
 
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That's fascinating to ponder!

It seems Ron Hubbard was the numero uno "copy-pasta" artist of his time, scripting scholarship to pass himself off as a superior intellect! It's surreal that on the occasions he described himself as the "great organizer" LRH was admitting this. I wonder if LRH's admirers have defended his sagacity more staunchly than Hubbard would himself.

Hubbard's subterfuge was easier to pull off in the era before computers, when writers had resources that wouldn't be obvious or available to the average person. Obviously, the Internet has changed that!

The large outstanding question is whether ANY "great organizer" like Mr. Hubbard -- someone skimming secondary source materials on everything from Socrates to Freudian analyses -- could really produce anything of merit. Is it really possible to digest, weigh, and evaluate complex material at such a rapid pace? Is it possible to recognize and extract only the most valuable information? Is it possible to be certain you attained the most valuable information from secondary sources when you haven't read the original works?

...

How did Hubbard do it? When people make claims, I try to look at them in practical terms. The books listed only fill a 3' foot shelf and STILL encompass A LOT of reading! And, A LOT of reflection! I've read these texts at least twice and came away with different views on each occasion. How did LRH manage to glean ONLY the most quintessential ideas? How did he do this without reading the original works?

It's simple, he didn't, he just convinced people that he did, that is what con men do, and Hubbard was a master flimflam man. Hubbard had a few hypnotic, stage magician, parlor, tricks he mastered and used them to get people hooked, the rest was on his victims to believe what Hubbard was feeding them was true and had merit.

It's human nature to want to believe you are too smart to become a victim of a con game, so the card will continue to keep trying to convince himself it is not a con game, the greater the investment in time and money, the greater the need to believe it's legitimate.

Hubbard was good at convincing his victims that they were more intelligent than the average man and Hubbard was a master at feeding his victim's egos while at the same time keeping them away from the truth.

Hubbard's material does not consist of the most quintessential ideas of the fore mentioned works, it is just long-winded rambling and half-truths of a compilation of very dated light-weight psychobabble.

If Hubbard actually managed to compile the most quintessential ideas of the fore mentioned works and comprehend them, Scientology would have something to show for itself other than a trail of carnage consisting of broken lives, and empty bank accounts.

I'm sure at one time Hubbard believed a portion of the material he compiled might actually produce some of the results he promised, it's just a question of when it went from pipe dream to full blown con game.

Rather than calling Dianetics "The handbook for the human mind", it should be called what it is, "A handbook for just another con"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUG7q4pccqU
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Congratulations of your post.

It's simple, he didn't, he just convinced people that he did, that is what con men do, and Hubbard was a master flimflam man. Hubbard had a few hypnotic, stage magician, parlor, tricks he mastered and used them to get people hooked, the rest was on his victims to believe what Hubbard was feeding them was true and had merit.

It's human nature to want to believe you are too smart to become a victim of a con game, so the card will continue to keep trying to convince himself it is not a con game, the greater the investment in time and money, the greater the need to believe it's legitimate.

Hubbard was good at convincing his victims that they were more intelligent than the average man and Hubbard was a master at feeding his victim's egos while at the same time keeping them away from the truth.

Hubbard's material does not consist of the most quintessential ideas of the fore mentioned works, it is just long-winded rambling and half-truths of a compilation of very dated light-weight psychobabble.

If Hubbard actually managed to compile the most quintessential ideas of the fore mentioned works and comprehend them, Scientology would have something to show for itself other than a trail of carnage consisting of broken lives, and empty bank accounts.

I'm sure at one time Hubbard believed a portion of the material he compiled might actually produce some of the results he promised, it's just a question of when it went from pipe dream to full blown con game.

Rather than calling Dianetics "The handbook for the human mind", it should be called what it is, "A handbook for just another con"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUG7q4pccqU

CNCML - Congratulations on your post. I believe this is the best, most logical, and most convincing presentation of your point of view which I have ever encountered.

Fortunately or perhaps unfortunately, I still feel I got something out of my experience studying Hubbard so you have not made me a 100% convert. Even so, I like your post a lot and agree with its basic tenets as regards C of S's similarities with a Carnival Side Show. I think everyone who is up in the air about their experiences in Scientology or who is considering whether they should sign up for courses should read your post and seriously figure what you say into their decisions about C of S.
Lakey
 
CNCML - Congratulations on your post. I believe this is the best, most logical, and most convincing presentation of your point of view which I have ever encountered.

Fortunately or perhaps unfortunately, I still feel I got something out of my experience studying Hubbard so you have not made me a 100% convert. Even so, I like your post a lot and agree with its basic tenets as regards C of S's similarities with a Carnival Side Show. I think everyone who is up in the air about their experiences in Scientology or who is considering whether they should sign up for courses should read your post and seriously figure what you say into their decisions about C of S.
Lakey

I'm sure you did get something out of it, it would be almost impossible to devote the time and effort Scientology demands and not get something out of it. We all grow and become wiser with time and Scientology requires a great deal of time and attention. Every situation and relationship I have been in was an experience I got something out of. Even convicted criminals, claim they got something out of their incarceration after they leave prison. It's just a matter of it being worth it. I have yet to see a valid or convincing argument demonstrating that Scientology is worth the time and effort it requires.
 

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Mr. Face,

Thank you for the compliment. I'd very much like to read the "Power of Source" comments you made, but couldn't find the thread. I hope you can give me the link!

Your conviction that a full understanding of Mary Sue's role is essential to comprehending Hubbard is astute. You wrote:

I honestly don’t think that the El Ron of the early ‘50’s to late ‘70’s may be properly, and fully discussed, without factoring in and including, to some degree, Mary Sue.

I couldn't agree more! A case might even be made that Hubbard would not have progressed much beyond the initial "Dianetics" craze, without Mary Sue's help. Hubbard's instabilities (those evidenced before and after Mary Sue) intimate that Hubbard might have self-destructed without Mary Sue or some similar leveling force. Of course, I don't have your insider feel for the characters so this is just than informed speculation.

Bent Corydon's biography supports your contention. Corydon describes Mary Sue introducing Hubbard to "General Semantics" at the time of Alfred Korzibyski's brief popularity. According to Corydon, MSH acquired the book and was reading it seriously. She tried to interest Hubbard in the work, but he belligerently "blew her off." A dispute ensued, during which MSH gets the upper hand, effectively saying, "Listen you big dummy, don't you realize you can use this stuff!" After which, they settle down and read the work together. If Corydon's account is accurate, it's a "picture perfect" vignette of the relationship you've described,

...Mary Sue had subtle yet great influence with El Ron. She was much more a scholar than Hisself and had a Liberal Arts degree from a very good school (UT, Austin) earned during a period that Liberal Arts majors studied many of the “Classics” of human thought and experience.

Mary Sue was an avid, eclectic and excellent reader and I know for a fact that she often discussed the highlights and gist of what she was reading with El Ron, especially if it was pertinent to something El Ron was interested in or currently messing around with.

Obviously your thoughts correlate with Corydon's depiction. Your observations, Kookaburra's recollections, the experiences of all ex-scientologists supply important pieces to the puzzle, no matter how small or seemingly trivial. You also wrote,

El Ron trusted Mary Sue, then later feared her, more than anyone else in the world.

Yes, exactly. Maybe that's not surprising considering LRH's childhood.

Thanks again, fisherman
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mr. Face,

Thank you for the compliment. I'd very much like to read the "Power of Source" comments you made, but couldn't find the thread. I hope you can give me the link!

Your conviction that a full understanding of Mary Sue's role is essential to comprehending Hubbard is astute. You wrote:

I honestly don’t think that the El Ron of the early ‘50’s to late ‘70’s may be properly, and fully discussed, without factoring in and including, to some degree, Mary Sue.

I couldn't agree more! A case might even be made that Hubbard would not have progressed much beyond the initial "Dianetics" craze, without Mary Sue's help. Hubbard's instabilities (those evidenced before and after Mary Sue) intimate that Hubbard might have self-destructed without Mary Sue or some similar leveling force. Of course, I don't have your insider feel for the characters so this is just than informed speculation.

Bent Corydon's biography supports your contention. Corydon describes Mary Sue introducing Hubbard to "General Semantics" at the time of Alfred Korzibyski's brief popularity. According to Corydon, MSH acquired the book and was reading it seriously. She tried to interest Hubbard in the work, but he belligerently "blew her off." A dispute ensued, during which MSH gets the upper hand, effectively saying, "Listen you big dummy, don't you realize you can use this stuff!" After which, they settle down and read the work together. If Corydon's account is accurate, it's a "picture perfect" vignette of the relationship you've described,



Obviously your thoughts correlate with Corydon's depiction. Your observations, Kookaburra's recollections, the experiences of all ex-scientologists supply important pieces to the puzzle, no matter how small or seemingly trivial. You also wrote,



Yes, exactly. Maybe that's not surprising considering LRH's childhood.

Thanks again, fisherman

Fisherman,

I don’t know how to do the link thingy. The Power of Source thread can be accessed on the second page of the “L Ron Hubbard, Source or Sauced” general topic.

If you are interested, I explored the El Ron/Mary Sue connection on some posts I made awhile back on the Apollo ’73 thread as part of a “Readers Digest” treatment re: Scn and El Ron I’ve been working through over there. I think you will find some of the information there is very much in concert with your well reasoned and written thoughts and concepts.:yes:

I am enjoying the dialogue with you and the others on this thread, however, the Apollo ’73 thread is kinda like my home 20 here in the ESMB neighborhood.:yes:

Face:)

PS: Mr. Face was my father...if it's alright with you, just call me plain ole "Face".:coolwink:
 

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Lake, thanks for writing this:

Fisherman, you almost have had to be a Scientologist yourself to understand how guys such as Face and I fell for LRH's shtick. We did not believe he was just a garden variety human being. It was sort of like he was a super human extra-terrestrial being who was sort of on loan to planet Earth from some other solar system, probably in this Galaxy...

I can see where this is true! Of course, age also has a lot to do with what we accept and believe. And more importantly, desiring to believe, which is often a downfall for all of us!

Best, fisherman
 

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Well, alright, ol' face, Sir, :)

I'll look for the 2nd page of "L Ron Hubbard, Source or Sauced" I did try to run down your post listings but couldn't identify the thread. I did notice that you spend most of your time "at sea" with Lake! :wink2:

I am very much interested in what you wrote about LRH/MSH. If you think of a way to narrow the location, I'd appreciate that. I kept up with Lake's thread when it started, but it became a bit overwhelming for this outsider.

If you want to create a "link" go to the page where your LHR/MSH post appears and copy the "url" address from the box at the top of your browser. Then go back and paste it into the post you are writing. As an example, here's the url link for this page:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=19424&page=6

You can see the end indicating "page 6" of this thread. You can paste multiple copies of one address and change the page numbers, if you want to create links to multiple pages

I've enjoyed and appreciated your input as well! I'll look for you here and also wander over to the ship from time to time. :coolwink:

Best, fisherman
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Face, when he gets to the ship do you think we should overboard him?

Well, alright, ol' face, Sir, :)

I'll look for the 2nd page of "L Ron Hubbard, Source or Sauced" I did try to run down your post listings but couldn't identify the thread. I did notice that you spend most of your time "at sea" with Lake! :wink2:

I am very much interested in what you wrote about LRH/MSH. If you think of a way to narrow the location, I'd appreciate that. I kept up with Lake's thread when it started, but it became a bit overwhelming for this outsider.

If you want to create a "link" go to the page where your LHR/MSH post appears and copy the "url" address from the box at the top of your browser. Then go back and paste it into the post you are writing. As an example, here's the url link for this page:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=19424&page=6

You can see the end indicating "page 6" of this thread. You can paste multiple copies of one address and change the page numbers, if you want to create links to multiple pages

I've enjoyed and appreciated your input as well! I'll look for you here and also wander over to the ship from time to time. :coolwink:

Best, fisherman

Face, when he comes over to the Ship, do you think we should overboard him? I guess not he seems like a nice kid, tenacious when it comes to doing his research. Where would he be trying to find his answers without us. I helped him with what I know, you helped me to get to what I now know and now we are helping him.

What do you think Face? Should we make the kid an honorary Ex Sea Org Member?
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Fisherman,

For some reason my computer won't copy and paste a URL string from ESMB. I can do it on any other URL string, but not ESMB...I thought there was some "trick" I didn't know.

You seem very sincere, thorough and intelligent. As I said, I am in the process of posting installments on my “Take” re: El Ron and Scientology. It’s turning out to be a small book. If you are interested to read these posts on the Apollo ’73 thread they are:

2026, 2040, 2121, 2340, 2372, 2384, 2414, 2492, 2522, 2536, 2547, 2556, 2588, 2591, 2526, 2656, 2675, 2901, 3021, 3160, 3195 and the most recent, 3456.

2522 is, as best I can recall, where I began the Mary Sue parts of my narrative and is, off and on, in a number of the posts after that.

I have also made a few posts regarding El Ron’s 4 children that were on the Ship and a few posts about Hisself’s father, whom I also spent a little time with. I have not included those in the list. I’m actually a little flabbergasted that I have written as much as I have now that I look back at it.

I know this is a lot of reading…wish I were more organized and adept at all this stuff but things have just kinda evolved here on ESMB for me. I don’t expect you to read all that stuff unless you find it helpful to your purpose. Heck, I won't be offended if you don't read any of it.

Also, if you have interest there are some posts on that thread that give a little insight into me…posts 3094, 3111, 3116 are the most detailed.

I don’t know why you are here and that is none of my business, anyway. I am glad that you are here. However, you do seem very interested in El Ron and Hisself’s bastard child, you’re obviously well educated, very intelligent and are working your way trough the puzzle with us.

You’ve got good stuff.:yes:

Face:)
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Face, when he comes over to the Ship, do you think we should overboard him? I guess not he seems like a nice kid, tenacious when it comes to doing his research. Where would he be trying to find his answers without us. I helped him with what I know, you helped me to get to what I now know and now we are helping him.

What do you think Face? Should we make the kid an honorary Ex Sea Org Member?
Lakey

Aargh, tis OK by me, Matey...butchu bedder be warnin' the lad that there sometimes bees blood in the scuppers over there and some o' us pirates are longa tooth and shorta brain cell or three.:D

Face:)
 
Fisherman,

For some reason my computer won't copy and paste a URL string from ESMB.

How are you trying to copy and paste the url?

If you want to obtain the url for a specific post, you need to either right click on the post number hot-link in the upper right-hand corner of the post and select "copy link address" or left clip on the post number hot-link in the upper right-hand corner of the post to enter the post and copy the address from the address bar.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
How are you trying to copy and paste the url?

If you want to obtain the url for a specific post, you need to either right click on the post number hot-link in the upper right-hand corner of the post and select "copy link address" or left clip on the post number hot-link in the upper right-hand corner of the post to enter the post and copy the address from the address bar.

Thanks, Chuck...I'll try it.

Face:)
 
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