A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Stat, thank-you! I appreciate your comment!

Lakey, you are wonderfully kind! But I gotta tell ya, I learn a lot from everyone's posts! CO pried my mind open a little wider and Mark's persistence gave me a fresh perspective of Hubbard's reliance on Will Durant. That was all very helpful!

Ol' Face,

Wow! Your storytelling is so powerful! I think you give “Papa” a run for his money!

I'm honored and fascinated to learn about your early years. Your precocity, passion for reading and sense of being “different” (despite popularity) appear to be traits shared by many ex-scientologists.

I've also noticed early experience of parental aggression and corporal punishment. Also, seeking “answers” or potential replacements for a rejected parental dogma. And/or interest in eastern, non-orthodox, or alternative religions.

Is it possible there are “warning signs” that an individual might be prone to cult attraction? Is there sufficient anecdotal evidence to create one of those lists, “If you answer 'yes' to 9 of these questions, you might be susceptible to cult targeting.” Maybe this already exists.

If not, ESMB'ers might be ideally qualified to develop a list that could be distributed or added to wiki's. I don't know if this is a good idea, it's just a idea.

Your intellectual pursuits and access to a brother's diverse library brought up another thought:

To what extent does personal or popular interest in “alternative” religions, realities, metaphysics, etc. increase the pull of Scientology? How influential was this In the 1970s when these topics were common currency? Does attraction to these areas say anything about us, individually or sociologically? Is it another kinda warning that, “when individuals or societies get interested in the bizarre, it can get very bizarre!”

Your story prompted my thoughts, but I don't mean to suggest that my cogitations are pertinent to your experience. Whether they are or no, after reading about your trip to the slammer and ambition for college, I'm excitedly waiting for more!

Regards, fisherman
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
My quest was to find my place in this world…to find my “team”…and to find the answers to the questions I still didn’t even know how to articulate.

Face:)

Karass:

A group of people linked in a cosmically significant manner, even when superficial linkages are not evident. Created by Kurt Vonnegut.
When I met Thomas, I quickly got the feeling that he was part of my karass.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=karass

It's real :)

Zinj
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks, Fisherman...thanks a whole bunch.:yes:

I've got a few comments re: your last post that will have to wait 'till tommorow 'cause I'm all wrote and thunk out for the day.:duh:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Karass:

A group of people linked in a cosmically significant manner, even when superficial linkages are not evident. Created by Kurt Vonnegut.
When I met Thomas, I quickly got the feeling that he was part of my karass.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=karass

It's real :)

Zinj

Whoa, Zinj. This is good stuff...this is really good stuff!:yes:

Thank you for this, pal.:thumbsup:

This is real to me...this is very real to me:coolwink:

Face:)
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Irony

"The strongest men (and women) that I've known are people who could understand and cope with the truth of what life has handed them and do so with equinimity. It's an epitome that many here have achieved, on a level I still find astonishing." - Fisherman

Just as a side not, it indicates to me somehow.

LOL at Irony

“To be happy, one only must be able to confront, which is to say, experience, those things that are. Unhappiness is only this: the inability to confront that which is.”

L. Ron Hubbard
 

TR'SIN

Patron with Honors
Nice Stuff

What a nice job of getting first-hand viewpoints from those who were closer to the origin that I. lakey,fisherman, Leon, Kookaburra, secretiveoldhag, ethicsparticle,afaceinthecrowd, PandaTermint, and even ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn have added a great deal to my understanding of how it was "Back In The Day".

I relate to many because of my upper-middle class, Mid-West upbringing and normal education expierence. Dropping out of college to follow my rage against the-man, to traveling to Dallas to view the "grassy knoll " days after the Kennedy assasination; all harbingers of my path in life. Bored easily if things were too easy, I chose to flit from one passion to another.

When I was led by my hand to the Org for my first intro lecture (actually an LRH film) I must admit, this seemed to hold many answers for many questions. Those early basic services of $5.00 fee for LRH lectures were my fodder. I carried with me that horrible secret for many years after; you know the one, "Who is this blowhard Know-it-all?" "He's not really that amusing, laughing at his own attempt at humor." "He really does make you feel like you don't know squat."

But, then I did a Dianetics Co-Audit. That was the difference for me. I would do almost anything to get fully-trained. I stuck with it, 17 yrs & trained to Class IV C/S and I think it was Mark who said "it just shouldn't take so long and cost so much" (I paraphrase). As a staff member I cleverly attained my goal and it did cost me way more than money for sure.

If you have read any of my earlier posts on various threads, you'll know that, I am still in the process of disconnecting. I find quite abit of goo still stuck to me after many months of posting, reading, questioning, and surfing the Net.

Thank you all for insight into who you are by sharing your personal stories, for your viewpoints and realizations. All very helpful to a rookie board member, a senior citizen and an Ex-Scientolgist.

Thank goodness another close friend during my years IN is also now OUT and helped me find the board. Because we live in the same area, we are able to get together for lunch every few weeks and it has been true therapy for me.

I'm thinking that some people who have been lurking may find some real good reasons to speak up and join us in the postings after reading this thread. It was the title that got me lakey, but it has been the thread that I really needed. Thanks to all.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
How delightful to see two of my favorite posters dialoguing heavily on this thread. Face and Fisherman. Just sit back an read and gain new incites. THere's no need to chime in and add anything to their dialogue, they are saying it all. Somethimes, one wishes that we all could just meet up in person, relax and start spinning are yarns and incites.
Lakey

Hear hear, Lakester.:cheers:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
What a nice job of getting first-hand viewpoints from those who were closer to the origin that I. lakey,fisherman, Leon, Kookaburra, secretiveoldhag, ethicsparticle,afaceinthecrowd, PandaTermint, and even ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn have added a great deal to my understanding of how it was "Back In The Day".

I relate to many because of my upper-middle class, Mid-West upbringing and normal education expierence. Dropping out of college to follow my rage against the-man, to traveling to Dallas to view the "grassy knoll " days after the Kennedy assasination; all harbingers of my path in life. Bored easily if things were too easy, I chose to flit from one passion to another.

When I was led by my hand to the Org for my first intro lecture (actually an LRH film) I must admit, this seemed to hold many answers for many questions. Those early basic services of $5.00 fee for LRH lectures were my fodder. I carried with me that horrible secret for many years after; you know the one, "Who is this blowhard Know-it-all?" "He's not really that amusing, laughing at his own attempt at humor." "He really does make you feel like you don't know squat."

But, then I did a Dianetics Co-Audit. That was the difference for me. I would do almost anything to get fully-trained. I stuck with it, 17 yrs & trained to Class IV C/S and I think it was Mark who said "it just shouldn't take so long and cost so much" (I paraphrase). As a staff member I cleverly attained my goal and it did cost me way more than money for sure.

If you have read any of my earlier posts on various threads, you'll know that, I am still in the process of disconnecting. I find quite abit of goo still stuck to me after many months of posting, reading, questioning, and surfing the Net.

Thank you all for insight into who you are by sharing your personal stories, for your viewpoints and realizations. All very helpful to a rookie board member, a senior citizen and an Ex-Scientolgist.

Thank goodness another close friend during my years IN is also now OUT and helped me find the board. Because we live in the same area, we are able to get together for lunch every few weeks and it has been true therapy for me.

I'm thinking that some people who have been lurking may find some real good reasons to speak up and join us in the postings after reading this thread. It was the title that got me lakey, but it has been the thread that I really needed. Thanks to all.

Man, thanks for that.:thumbsup:

Glad you're here with Us.:yes:

Read some of your posts...you got good stuff...you fit right in, Bubba.:coolwink:

Face:)
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
To Fisherman - Why people are attracted to Scn

Fisherman - People who were attracted to Scientology are of a semi diverse lot but there are some common threads which link us.

I. I'll start first with my own class of people. I would call this class, the The Technical Boys This class was for the most part males who had some training in Science and Math. We noticed that Science and Math seemed to be working in the areas of electonics, develoopment of machinery to ease living, areas of computing, transportation, etc.. We were males solely because in our school days, not many females took science and Math.

I BELIEVE THE COMMON THREAD OF THIS BUNCH WAS THE IDEA THAT IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO USE OUR SCIENTIFIC TRAINING TO FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEMS OF THE HUMAN MIND.

Some examples of this type of person: David Mayo, Vinaire, Gadfly, The Magic Thetan, Face (I believe), Leon (I believe), Dull old Fart (I believe)...My old friend Hank Billings of Ryan aircraft (now deceased) and my old friend from Aerojet General, Buck Haegele, who I saw at the July 4th event.

Mayo was the poster boy for this group. Not flamboyant nor dynamic, just a sane, rational speaker. Ex military men and women would land in this group as well.

II - The next group would by Creative people and Entertainers. Here we have types who did not accept the values of their parents generation and were youths during the 1960's. A lot of these people were hippies or ex hippies, usually did drugs at one time or another and did not take the orthodox Judeo - Christian religiions seriously. They sought religion either through Vedic religions or mocked up religions of their own. A large portion of these people were creative and had artistic talents, usually in music and painting but often also in the dramatic arts as well as poetry and verse.

When I arrived at CCLA at the age of 30, I was awash in these people but I was not one of them. Carmelo seems to me to exemplify these people though he is also able to encompass category I above at times.

III. - This group for want of a better term could be classified as "Misfits" or drop outs. Often, such people just were not willing to conform to 9 to 5 jobs, they hated school, the hated wearing clean and well pressed clothes. These people were often just making a statement that they were unique and different, though in most cases they were not actually unique at all. A very few were very unique. Often, these types would get cleaned up quickly in Scientology and a big deal would be made about that and then they would move up into Catefory I or II.

IV. The last group I would call Movers and Shakers - This group had the leaders, Yvonne Jentzsch, John Mc Master, perhaps Ken Urquhart, though he was never in the limelight, Alan Walter, Captain Bill Robertson, Otto Roos, maybe Pierre Ethier. These are beings who wanted to change the World and felt that in Ron Hubbard, they had found the man to make this possible.

YOU KNOW, IF HUBBARD WAS WHO HE CLAIMED TO BE, Hubbard plus his Group IV's along with the Group I's and II's might have brought about the changes which the Group IV's and the Group I's had earlier envisioned.

There in another nutshell is an opening on the category which Fisherman was talking about,
Lakey
 
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Fisherman - People who were attracted to Scientology are of a semi diverse lot but there are some common threads which link us.

I was attracted to it because I thought it was legit. The package is designed to represent well researched material and legitimacy. If the internet was around in the early 80s, I wouldn't even have given it a second thought.

'The Owner's Manual For The Human Mind' ... seriously, how were they able to run advertisements claiming this?
 
Stat, thank-you! I appreciate your comment!

Lakey, you are wonderfully kind! But I gotta tell ya, I learn a lot from everyone's posts! CO pried my mind open a little wider and Mark's persistence gave me a fresh perspective of Hubbard's reliance on Will Durant. That was all very helpful!

Ol' Face,

Wow! Your storytelling is so powerful! I think you give “Papa” a run for his money!

I'm honored and fascinated to learn about your early years. Your precocity, passion for reading and sense of being “different” (despite popularity) appear to be traits shared by many ex-scientologists.

I've also noticed early experience of parental aggression and corporal punishment. Also, seeking “answers” or potential replacements for a rejected parental dogma. And/or interest in eastern, non-orthodox, or alternative religions.

Is it possible there are “warning signs” that an individual might be prone to cult attraction? Is there sufficient anecdotal evidence to create one of those lists, “If you answer 'yes' to 9 of these questions, you might be susceptible to cult targeting.” Maybe this already exists.

If not, ESMB'ers might be ideally qualified to develop a list that could be distributed or added to wiki's. I don't know if this is a good idea, it's just a idea.

Your intellectual pursuits and access to a brother's diverse library brought up another thought:

To what extent does personal or popular interest in “alternative” religions, realities, metaphysics, etc. increase the pull of Scientology? How influential was this In the 1970s when these topics were common currency? Does attraction to these areas say anything about us, individually or sociologically? Is it another kinda warning that, “when individuals or societies get interested in the bizarre, it can get very bizarre!”

Your story prompted my thoughts, but I don't mean to suggest that my cogitations are pertinent to your experience. Whether they are or no, after reading about your trip to the slammer and ambition for college, I'm excitedly waiting for more!

Regards, fisherman

I am as ill qualified to answer this as anyone.

I was involved from 68-76. I use what I want still, and quite frequently. The group is the cult. When I left, i didn't feel that it had hit cult status, as least where i knew it. My friends, who were in, didn't disconnect or think much about it, and still haven't (those that stayed).

My friends, who are in were from middle class backgrounds. Mostly very intelligent. a friend, with over a decade in the NFL, built spec houses, ran a computer software company, and has FU money.... joined the Sea Org a little over five years ago. He not stupid. yet BLINDERS


what gives? i don't know
 
Fisherman - People who were attracted to Scientology are of a semi diverse lot but there are some common threads which link us.

I. I'll start first with my own class of people. I would call this class, the The Technical Boys This class was for the most part males who had some training in Science and Math. We noticed that Science and Math seemed to be working in the areas of electonics, develoopment of machinery to ease living, areas of computing, transportation, etc.. We were males solely because in our school days, not many females took science and Math.

I BELIEVE THE COMMON THREAD OF THIS BUNCH WAS THE IDEA THAT IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO USE OUR SCIENTIFIC TRAINING TO FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEMS OF THE HUMAN MIND.

Some examples of this type of person: David Mayo, Vinaire, Gadfly, The Magic Thetan, Face (I believe), Leon (I believe), Dull old Fart (I believe)...My old friend Hank Billings of Ryan aircraft (now deceased) and my old friend from Aerojet General, Buck Haegele, who I saw at the July 4th event.

Mayo was the poster boy for this group. Not flamboyant nor dynamic, just a sane, rational speaker. Ex military men and women would land in this group as well.

II - The next group would by Creative people and Entertainers. Here we have types who did not accept the values of their parents generation and were youths during the 1960's. A lot of these people were hippies or ex hippies, usually did drugs at one time or another and did not take the orthodox Judeo - Christian religiions seriously. They sought religion either through Vedic religions or mocked up religions of their own. A large portion of these people were creative and had artistic talents, usually in music and painting but often also in the dramatic arts as well as poetry and verse.

When I arrived at CCLA at the age of 30, I was awash in these people but I was not one of them. Carmelo seems to me to exemplify these people though he is also able to encompass category I above at times.

III. - This group for want of a better term could be classified as "Misfits" or drop outs. Often, such people just were not willing to conform to 9 to 5 jobs, they hated school, the hated wearing clean and well pressed clothes. These people were often just making a statement that they were unique and different, though in most cases they were not actually unique at all. A very few were very unique. Often, these types would get cleaned up quickly in Scientology and a big deal would be made about that and then they would move up into Catefory I or II.

IV. The last group I would call Movers and Shakers - This group had the leaders, Yvonne Jentzsch, John Mc Master, perhaps Ken Urquhart, though he was never in the limelight, Alan Walter, Captain Bill Robertson, Otto Roos, maybe Pierre Ethier. These are beings who wanted to change the World and felt that in Ron Hubbard, they had found the man to make this possible.

YOU KNOW, IF HUBBARD WAS WHO HE CLAIMED TO BE, Hubbard plus his Group IV's along with the Group I's and II's might have brought about the changes which the Group IV's and the Group I's had earlier envisioned.

There in another nutshell is an opening on the category which Fisherman was talking about,
Lakey

My best friend in high school's brother got about twenty of us involved in April of 68.

We were tied together by dope smoking, acid dropping, rock and roll, but mainly by our intelligence and searching.

I'd say we were idealistic children.

We read The Psychedelic Experience, The i Ching, Magister Ludi, The Way of Zen, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, Emerson, Thoreau, Cosmic Consciousness, Lao Tze, Edgar Cayce, books on reincarnation and ESP. We had already pushed past the envelope of the man in the grey flannel suit. We were looking for answers. Those answers were not found in the establishment. Psychology, philosophy, and science were jokes, and still are.

A friend of mine is head of the Philosophy department for The Ohio State University. He cares more about abortions as a philosophical question than the psyche. I'll take a conversation any day with a friend IN the Co$ than my friend regarding the real elements of philosophy.

To be is to do.
-J.P. Sartre

To do is to be.
-J.S. Mill

Do be do be do
-F.A. Sinatra

i was looking for a synthesis of religion, philosophy, and science. Scientology seemed to be it. The quest continues. The Co$ has fossilized. not everyone, who was involved, has quit looking.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Very interesting post!

My best friend in high school's brother got about twenty of us involved in April of 68.

We were tied together by dope smoking, acid dropping, rock and roll, but mainly by our intelligence and searching.

I'd say we were idealistic children.

We read The Psychedelic Experience, The i Ching, Magister Ludi, The Way of Zen, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, Emerson, Thoreau, Cosmic Consciousness, Lao Tze, Edgar Cayce, books on reincarnation and ESP. We had already pushed past the envelope of the man in the grey flannel suit. We were looking for answers. Those answers were not found in the establishment. Psychology, philosophy, and science were jokes, and still are.

A friend of mine is head of the Philosophy department for The Ohio State University. He cares more about abortions as a philosophical question than the psyche. I'll take a conversation any day with a friend IN the Co$ than my friend regarding the real elements of philosophy.

To be is to do.
-J.P. Sartre

To do is to be.
-J.S. Mill

Do be do be do
-F.A. Sinatra

i was looking for a synthesis of religion, philosophy, and science. Scientology seemed to be it. The quest continues. The Co$ has fossilized. not everyone, who was involved, has quit looking.


Very interesting post, I knew a lot of this already from our long association. In trying to kick of a conversation on why people join Scn, for simplicity's sake, I made only four categories. You were mainly a category II but I correctly indicated that you also had elements of catefory I because of all the reading which you had done. You certainly are able to move in Academic circles if you choose. You also have elements of the Category IV because you helped to bring in a lot of people and you can function as an opinion leader.

Perhaps most of us who got in were a mix of more than one category with a predominant emphasis in just one. Someone such as Yvonne Jentzsch was a total Category IV. She had done no formal advanced studies that I know of and I do not think she was at all well read. What is more, she had no interest in exposing herself to other forms of learning other than LRH. I think that on an IQ test she would not score very high, maybe 110 but she had a certain type of intelligence that transcended booklearning.

Based on Carmelo's post, which I am quoting, if I were to expand my Category's, I might incorporate two additional yardsticks to consider. One of those would be a category, Category V while the other would not be a category but would apply to some degree to all categories. To wit:

CATEGORY V - PROPENSITY TO LOOK AT WHAT WERE REGARDED AS NON ORTHODOX SUBJECTS
Could the person read Edgar Caycee on past lives and take it seriously? Could the person accept data from the Vedic religions? Could the person be comfortable studying the occult and books by various Psychics.

Every category would have to also have a strong dose of Category V or they never would have looked at Scientology with more than a quick scan

A FINAL POINT WHICH MUST BE CONSIDERED BUT APPLIES TO ALL CATEGORIES

Part a. - One's intended length of stay. Did the person join for the eternity such as with a billion year contract or was the person mainly just passing through?

Part b. - All or Nothing? Did the person accept the entire subject en masse or just cherry pick the items he/she liked"

I think most people intended to stay for the long term when they first joined. They were driven out by the monkey business which went on as so well documented endlessly on ESMB I think most people bought into the Church's line that the subject had to be accepted in its entirety and could not be mixed with other practices. IF THE C OF S HAD NOT INSTITUTED THIS RULE THAT ONE COULD NOT EVEN LOOK AT OTHER PRACTICES AND STILL BE A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING, THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF C OF S WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT THAN IT IS. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POLICY, AFTER ALL IS SAID AND DONE, IS WHAT TRULY MAKES C OF S A CULT!!

Carmelo came in for just 8 years, 1968 to 1976 and when he left, he took the things he liked with him and has been using them ever since. Other people have done this as well but they are definitely a minority of the people on ESMB. These two factors are very important in the overall question of who was attracted to be a Scientologist and why were they attracted. These questions might also be made a thread of their own but let's see what kind of interest this topic attracts on this thread.
lakey
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
My research has only identified 3 Categories of Scientologist...

I. Those gullible enough to believe wacky stories.

II. Those wacky enough to not care if the stories are wacky.

III. Science Fiction writers.​

Ergo, the naive, the nutty and the exploiters of the naive & nutty.

Hello, my name is HelluvaHoax and I am a recovering CategoryOneAholic.
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
My research has only identified 3 Categories...

I. Those gullible enough to believe wacky stories.

II. Those wacky enough to not care if the stories are wacky.

III. Science Fiction writers.​

Ergo, the stupid, the crazy and the exploiters of the stupid & crazy.

You missed one; Science Fiction Writers wacky enough to *believe* their own wacky stories.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
HolyHell!

So, he wasn't joking?


"This is a coldblooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years."​

No. It reminds me of stories of con-men who start a boom in some bogus scam and then desperately try to get in on it themselves for fear of having missed something.

Zinj
 
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