A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard

lkwdblds

Crusader
This concept indicates with me.

Sounds like a similar concept from Dr. Michael Newton's research that I posted about: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=256489&postcount=70

Paul

This concept indicates with me. Can one have two of these things going simultaneously? The two strongest ones I feel are both from the late 18ths Centruy. I have attention on the musical circles in Vienna in the 1780's and 1790' relating to Emmanuel Shikaneder, Mozart and Countess Wilhelmina Thun but then I also have a lot of attention on the American Revolution and its group of beings from about 1775 to 1800.

At CCLA in the 1970 to 1975 period I had a feeling of being with some familiar beings. Also, it is happening again with Edey and Ginger's Garden, an occult Center in Orange County. A lot of the beings who hang out there seem familiar to me.

Who knows if there is any merit in the current feeling or the one in 1975 at CCLA or the American Revolution but the circle of musical friends and other artists in Vienna.... that one is about as real to me as my current lifetime. If I am mocking that one up, it is so real that it might just as well be true.
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Stat, thank-you! I appreciate your comment!

Lakey, you are wonderfully kind! But I gotta tell ya, I learn a lot from everyone's posts! CO pried my mind open a little wider and Mark's persistence gave me a fresh perspective of Hubbard's reliance on Will Durant. That was all very helpful!

Ol' Face,

Wow! Your storytelling is so powerful! I think you give “Papa” a run for his money!

I'm honored and fascinated to learn about your early years. Your precocity, passion for reading and sense of being “different” (despite popularity) appear to be traits shared by many ex-scientologists.

I think there is some truth to this...I know that when I was in I found that the many of my fellow Scns had certain elements of their "story" that were similar to mine. I like people, I like talking with people, I like learning about them and their "take", their life and experiences. When I was in I talked with a lot of the folks around me, and that I met here and there in my travels around the Scn empire, about them, "where they came from" and how and why they got in.

I've also noticed early experience of parental aggression and corporal punishment. Also, seeking “answers” or potential replacements for a rejected parental dogma. And/or interest in eastern, non-orthodox, or alternative religions.

I think parental aggression and corporal punishment was more prevelent in society in the '40's and '50's...mine just happen to be a pathological case. Youth of every generation have ever been seeking "answers" or potential replacements for rejected parental dogma...it's part of what keeps us going forward. This, from my conversations with others while in, is definitely true. I wrote somewhere back on the Apollo '73 thread about the "Lucky Few" and "Boomers" that were the folks that made up the big majority of Scns while I was in.

Is it possible there are “warning signs” that an individual might be prone to cult attraction? Is there sufficient anecdotal evidence to create one of those lists, “If you answer 'yes' to 9 of these questions, you might be susceptible to cult targeting.” Maybe this already exists.

I've read several websites where lists of this nature are presented. Problem to me is, as I read the lists, the majority of the population can be found on much of the lists, especially if you're talking about folks younger than 21 or so.

If not, ESMB'ers might be ideally qualified to develop a list that could be distributed or added to wiki's. I don't know if this is a good idea, it's just a idea.

I don't think anything accurate could be done without a bona fide scientific statistical model being developed and it would be very difficult to access the sampling size needed do to the generational and era stratifications that I think are at play as to why and how people get in...just my opinion. If someone had the big bucks it would take to do it right, it probably could be done.

Your intellectual pursuits and access to a brother's diverse library brought up another thought:

To what extent does personal or popular interest in “alternative” religions, realities, metaphysics, etc. increase the pull of Scientology? How influential was this In the 1970s when these topics were common currency? Does attraction to these areas say anything about us, individually or sociologically? Is it another kinda warning that, “when individuals or societies get interested in the bizarre, it can get very bizarre!”

I've kinda addressed the first two questions earlier and in the posts I mentioned I made on the Apollo '73 thread. I think for a number of folks it was huge.

Regarding question 3, yes I think it does say something about us...it says, in part, that we humans are curious creatures, that we have consciousness and sentience beyond are grasp and understanding, that we are compelled and impelled by "forces and energies" that are still mysterious to us.

At one time freedom of speech, equality of races and gender, flying, transmitting voice and image across the world, space travel, the alchemy of modern metallurgy and medicine, on and on and on, were thought to be bizarre. I personally think that it's kinda a warning when some individuals within societies stop getting interested in answering, solving the bizarre.


Your story prompted my thoughts, but I don't mean to suggest that my cogitations are pertinent to your experience. Whether they are or no, after reading about your trip to the slammer and ambition for college, I'm excitedly waiting for more!

Good thoughts all and well thunked.:yes:

Regards, fisherman

I don't think it's possible for many folks on this board to not find at least a few things that I have to say resonating...just as many folks here say many things that resonate with me...very much including you, Fisherman.:coolwink:

I deeply appreciate your, and others, kind words and interest about my story telling…never thought there’d be folks, and especially non Exes, that would have an interest in what I had to say about Li’l Ol’ Face's times with El Ron and Hisself’s gambit.:confused2:

I'll be back around with Part 4 in a few days.

Face:)
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Fisherman - People who were attracted to Scientology are of a semi diverse lot but there are some common threads which link us.

I. I'll start first with my own class of people. I would call this class, the The Technical Boys This class was for the most part males who had some training in Science and Math. We noticed that Science and Math seemed to be working in the areas of electonics, develoopment of machinery to ease living, areas of computing, transportation, etc.. We were males solely because in our school days, not many females took science and Math.

I BELIEVE THE COMMON THREAD OF THIS BUNCH WAS THE IDEA THAT IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO USE OUR SCIENTIFIC TRAINING TO FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEMS OF THE HUMAN MIND.

Some examples of this type of person: David Mayo, Vinaire, Gadfly, The Magic Thetan, Face (I believe), Leon (I believe), Dull old Fart (I believe)...My old friend Hank Billings of Ryan aircraft (now deceased) and my old friend from Aerojet General, Buck Haegele, who I saw at the July 4th event.

Mayo was the poster boy for this group. Not flamboyant nor dynamic, just a sane, rational speaker. Ex military men and women would land in this group as well.

II - The next group would by Creative people and Entertainers. Here we have types who did not accept the values of their parents generation and were youths during the 1960's. A lot of these people were hippies or ex hippies, usually did drugs at one time or another and did not take the orthodox Judeo - Christian religiions seriously. They sought religion either through Vedic religions or mocked up religions of their own. A large portion of these people were creative and had artistic talents, usually in music and painting but often also in the dramatic arts as well as poetry and verse.

When I arrived at CCLA at the age of 30, I was awash in these people but I was not one of them. Carmelo seems to me to exemplify these people though he is also able to encompass category I above at times.

III. - This group for want of a better term could be classified as "Misfits" or drop outs. Often, such people just were not willing to conform to 9 to 5 jobs, they hated school, the hated wearing clean and well pressed clothes. These people were often just making a statement that they were unique and different, though in most cases they were not actually unique at all. A very few were very unique. Often, these types would get cleaned up quickly in Scientology and a big deal would be made about that and then they would move up into Catefory I or II.

IV. The last group I would call Movers and Shakers - This group had the leaders, Yvonne Jentzsch, John Mc Master, perhaps Ken Urquhart, though he was never in the limelight, Alan Walter, Captain Bill Robertson, Otto Roos, maybe Pierre Ethier. These are beings who wanted to change the World and felt that in Ron Hubbard, they had found the man to make this possible.

YOU KNOW, IF HUBBARD WAS WHO HE CLAIMED TO BE, Hubbard plus his Group IV's along with the Group I's and II's might have brought about the changes which the Group IV's and the Group I's had earlier envisioned.

There in another nutshell is an opening on the category which Fisherman was talking about,
Lakey

This is interesting, Lakey...nice work.:yes:

Face:)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
This concept indicates with me. Can one have two of these things going simultaneously? The two strongest ones I feel are both from the late 18ths Centruy. I have attention on the musical circles in Vienna in the 1780's and 1790' relating to Emmanuel Shikaneder, Mozart and Countess Wilhelmina Thun but then I also have a lot of attention on the American Revolution and its group of beings from about 1775 to 1800.

At CCLA in the 1970 to 1975 period I had a feeling of being with some familiar beings. Also, it is happening again with Edey and Ginger's Garden, an occult Center in Orange County. A lot of the beings who hang out there seem familiar to me.

Who knows if there is any merit in the current feeling or the one in 1975 at CCLA or the American Revolution but the circle of musical friends and other artists in Vienna.... that one is about as real to me as my current lifetime. If I am mocking that one up, it is so real that it might just as well be true.
Lakey

Newton says (this is very reminiscent of "Hubbard says") it is very rare that one runs two bodies on Earth simultaneously.

As for finding out about one's different soul groups and who's who on a supra-lifetime basis, I would suggest getting a Life-Between-Lives session from a properly-qualified LBL practitioner trained in the Newton method. One session is often enough, with little to be learned from subsequent sessions (he says). One session will last about four hours, and might set you back $300-$500. There's a directory of trained practitioners here. I see there are a whole bunch in Los Angeles.

Paul
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
My best friend in high school's brother got about twenty of us involved in April of 68.

We were tied together by dope smoking, acid dropping, rock and roll, but mainly by our intelligence and searching.

I'd say we were idealistic children.

We read The Psychedelic Experience, The i Ching, Magister Ludi, The Way of Zen, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, Emerson, Thoreau, Cosmic Consciousness, Lao Tze, Edgar Cayce, books on reincarnation and ESP. We had already pushed past the envelope of the man in the grey flannel suit. We were looking for answers. Those answers were not found in the establishment. Psychology, philosophy, and science were jokes, and still are.

A friend of mine is head of the Philosophy department for The Ohio State University. He cares more about abortions as a philosophical question than the psyche. I'll take a conversation any day with a friend IN the Co$ than my friend regarding the real elements of philosophy.

To be is to do.
-J.P. Sartre

To do is to be.
-J.S. Mill

Do be do be do
-F.A. Sinatra

i was looking for a synthesis of religion, philosophy, and science. Scientology seemed to be it. The quest continues. The Co$ has fossilized. not everyone, who was involved, has quit looking.

:thumbsup: This is good, Carmelo.:yes:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Very interesting post, I knew a lot of this already from our long association. In trying to kick of a conversation on why people join Scn, for simplicity's sake, I made only four categories. You were mainly a category II but I correctly indicated that you also had elements of catefory I because of all the reading which you had done. You certainly are able to move in Academic circles if you choose. You also have elements of the Category IV because you helped to bring in a lot of people and you can function as an opinion leader.

Perhaps most of us who got in were a mix of more than one category with a predominant emphasis in just one. Someone such as Yvonne Jentzsch was a total Category IV. She had done no formal advanced studies that I know of and I do not think she was at all well read. What is more, she had no interest in exposing herself to other forms of learning other than LRH. I think that on an IQ test she would not score very high, maybe 110 but she had a certain type of intelligence that transcended booklearning.

Based on Carmelo's post, which I am quoting, if I were to expand my Category's, I might incorporate two additional yardsticks to consider. One of those would be a category, Category V while the other would not be a category but would apply to some degree to all categories. To wit:

CATEGORY V - PROPENSITY TO LOOK AT WHAT WERE REGARDED AS NON ORTHODOX SUBJECTS
Could the person read Edgar Caycee on past lives and take it seriously? Could the person accept data from the Vedic religions? Could the person be comfortable studying the occult and books by various Psychics.

Every category would have to also have a strong dose of Category V or they never would have looked at Scientology with more than a quick scan

A FINAL POINT WHICH MUST BE CONSIDERED BUT APPLIES TO ALL CATEGORIES

Part a. - One's intended length of stay. Did the person join for the eternity such as with a billion year contract or was the person mainly just passing through?

Part b. - All or Nothing? Did the person accept the entire subject en masse or just cherry pick the items he/she liked"

I think most people intended to stay for the long term when they first joined. They were driven out by the monkey business which went on as so well documented endlessly on ESMB I think most people bought into the Church's line that the subject had to be accepted in its entirety and could not be mixed with other practices. IF THE C OF S HAD NOT INSTITUTED THIS RULE THAT ONE COULD NOT EVEN LOOK AT OTHER PRACTICES AND STILL BE A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING, THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF C OF S WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT THAN IT IS. I BELIEVE THAT THIS POLICY, AFTER ALL IS SAID AND DONE, IS WHAT TRULY MAKES C OF S A CULT!!

Carmelo came in for just 8 years, 1968 to 1976 and when he left, he took the things he liked with him and has been using them ever since. Other people have done this as well but they are definitely a minority of the people on ESMB. These two factors are very important in the overall question of who was attracted to be a Scientologist and why were they attracted. These questions might also be made a thread of their own but let's see what kind of interest this topic attracts on this thread.
lakey

This is nice work, too. I was gonna comment that I didn't see myself as a 1but then you made this post...your # 5 is more like it, but I think that many, including me, fit to a degree within more than one category. Interesting stuff, Lakey.:thumbsup:

Face:)
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I fell in with a girl who is into the occult........

Oh it is, it is. He is my favourite author. I think his books (well, his research findings) more important than any others by an order of magnitude.

Paul

Paul, I fell in with a girl who is a hypnotherapist and is into the occult. She claims that she has been a team mate of mine spiritually before going way back on the track. She has taken me to a Ginger's Gardens in Orange Country which is an occult center. The people there are very welcoming and friendly.

At first I was ill at ease and felt like a fish out of water but that feeling is starting to evaporate. In talking to them, at first, I felt I had superior knowledge and was just humoring them feigning interest in what they were saying. In talking to Edey and others at the center, I am finding out that I have underestimated their wisdom.

They can converse on everything which I know from Scientology, including NOTs tech with one exception. To date I have not found anyone with the reality of getting things to vanish by seeing them truly as they are, i.e. "as-is ness". Particularly in their mental technologies, which are many and diverse, they do not isolate areas of charge and get the person just to train their attention on specific things and get them to blow.

They do tend to search for negative decisions and postulates in a mind and bring them to the surface but to get rid of them, an operator will usually hypnotize the person and suggest that the person release the negative postulate. The operator then installs a new postulate which she and the client have worked out verbally before the session.

This has been the only mental technique that I have seen so far except for mediatation. Their may be more advanced techniques but I have not seen them yet. I do not think any practitioner there gets a client to look at something on his own and blow it by inspection. I did bring up blowing things of a lghter nature by inspection with Edey and she nodded in agreement that that was possible on light items but for the bigger life changing items, she felt a practitioner was needed to get rid of harmful postulates and install more positive postulates.

I am starting to like going there. There are people there who are good people for me to be with. They do possess wisdom of their own. Everyone there is very welcoming and respectful. There is no huge demand for money.
Lakey
 

FoTi

Crusader
Paul, I fell in with a girl who is a hypnotherapist and is into the occult. She claims that she has been a team mate of mine spiritually before going way back on the track. She has taken me to a Ginger's Gardens in Orange Country which is an occult center. The people there are very welcoming and friendly.


They do tend to search for negative decisions and postulates in a mind and bring them to the surface but to get rid of them, an operator will usually hypnotize the person and suggest that the person release the negative postulate. The operator then installs a new postulate which she and the client have worked out verbally before the session.

This has been the only mental technique that I have seen so far except for mediatation. Their may be more advanced techniques but I have not seen them yet. I do not think any practitioner there gets a client to look at something on his own and blow it by inspection. I did bring up blowing things of a lghter nature by inspection with Edey and she nodded in agreement that that was possible on light items but for the bigger life changing items, she felt a practitioner was needed to get rid of harmful postulates and install more positive postulates.


Lakey

This sounds like implant tech to me. I experienced something kind of like this prior to Scientology and it really messed me up....and I had no idea that it would until it was too late. Be careful Lakey.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Words of wisdom taken from Ted

Ted wrote some words of Wisdom on the Apollo thread this morning. They say a lot about LRH and say it in very few words, "in a nutshell" so to speak. I am quoting Ted's quote below:


Hubbard attempted to convince us that His Cause was virtuous. It was not. As he wrote in 8008, "Cause is motivated by the future." Hubbard's future was all about smashing his name into history. "I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form, even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned."

My contributions were virtuous. Your contributions were virtuous. We contributed based on agreed upon policy. His contributions were pretentious and deceitful having an underlying, motivation contrary to his written statements:

Lakey
 

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Lakey, I suspect Ted's right, that many virtuous individuals were taken advantage of by Hubbard's immorality, "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of law, when smashing one's name into legendary history." I guess? Thanks for posting Ted's well drawn portrait!

I intended to post the following a few days ago, but we're bringing a new puppy and the preparations have put me behind. My youngest daughter came up with the name "sunny" for our new pooch. When I asked her why, she said, "Because a dog brings joy into your life, like the sun!" If you heard something hit the floor, that was proud papa swooning! :)

Face, I enjoyed your comments very much. The following is directed to Lake's intriguing categories and CO's remarks.

My curiousity about common traits among individuals attracted to scientology is not an attempt to pidgeon hole anyone. No one has suggested otherwise, I just wanted to underline that.

Lakey, your categories are very helpful in framing the picture of what made scientology attractive in those early years. I might question category #4. Are you saying that “leadership types” were attracted to COS simply because they were “looking for something, anything, to lead?” Or were you describing the group within COS that naturally rose to leadership, for whatever reason?

I tend to think of “Movers and shakers” as a subset in any group. If you started a club called, “People Who Refuse To Take Responsibility” - somebody would ascend to a leadership position. Even in a group called, “People Who Insist on Leading” - the selection process might be messy, but someone would ascend to the leadership.

Recognizing these are broad characterizations, let me run through your groups to see if I understand.

1. The Technical Boys. These are individuals seeking, “something higher “ but their scientific nature makes it difficult to make the “leap of faith” that characterizes traditional religions. They are seeking a a tangible, logical, path to enlightenment. This is the crowd that stood behind Thomas Acquinas, anxiously waiting for that master logician to complete the scientific path to God. Interesting!

2. Creative Types and Entertainers. The appeal here seems understandable. The danger arises if these folks loose sight of the line between creative fantasy and reality.

A sidenote here. You wrote that this group,

"... did not take the orthodox Judeo - Christian religiions seriously. They sought religion either through Vedic religions or mocked up religions of their own."

I've never known what to make of the fact that so much of what western "seekers" have sought, was always in the back-yard. Unfortunately, often with a tarp thrown over it by the churches themselves!

Over many years, western Judaism and Christianity have hidden the rich tapestry from which they evolved. They have honed their message so uniformly, that for many, the profound richness from whence the religion came is lost. There are historical reasons for this, nonetheless, the result may seem rather homogenized to some.

I've logged a few hours studying western religion. To me, every impulse, vision, mystic sensibility or message that one might seek outside of western religion is also richly available within it. I don't mean that as a slight to other religions, it's just an observation. I also understand the allure of "grass that's greener on the other side." Still, it's a tremendous irony that much of what a western "seeker" might look for in a faraway place and a foriegn language, is so close to home. You have to know how to fish for it, but it is there.

And it is like fishing. I live in a town that features some of the best bass fishing on the east coast. So where do my friends and I fish? Thirty miles east! As I get older though, I stay closer to home and pull fish out of "honey holes" just as sweet as any to be found elsewhere.

3. Misfits. Face, I found my group! So many of us qualify in one way or another that this category seems difficult to generalize. That may account for it being a transitional category as A Lake sauggests. One possibly valid generalization is that misfits don't tend to be especially objective. The personal baggage that defines their "misfit-ness" may tend hinder a level viewpoint.

CO, I don't know if it's related, but your philosphy friend caught my attention.

A friend of mine is head of the Philosophy department for The Ohio State University. He cares more about abortions as a philosophical question than the psyche. I'll take a conversation any day with a friend IN the Co$ than my friend regarding the real elements of philosophy.

Maybe your friend is a misfit of a different stripe? I've encountered obtuse philosophy profs, but the majority were exceptional realists who could summarize and hone actual events with stunning acuity. There's even some objective proof of this. Since the 1980's the dominant focus of philosophy has been medical ethics, environmental ethics, and other practical questions.

This was a somewhat controversial shift that came under the heading of "applied philosophy." Philosophy took advantage of the growing number of challenging ethics cases and started specializing in answering difficult questions. Since that time, lawmakers trying to craft legislation on, with-holding life support, life in the womb, assisted suicide, etc. have been turning to philosophy for analytic assistance. It's used to be a sardonic inside joke that if you're can't decide whether to pull the plug, "who ya gonna call? ethics-busters."

These days, LRH would have a hard deriding philosophers as ivory tower featherheads with no connection to "the real world." And of course LRH's remark was never correct. The only thing that remark proves is that Mr. Hubbard knew very little about actual philopshopy.

I'm going to leave off here. BRB, after bringing home puppy! :thumbsup:

fisherman
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Great critique

Lakey, I suspect Ted's right, that many virtuous individuals were taken advantage of by Hubbard's immorality, "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of law, when smashing one's name into legendary history." I guess? Thanks for posting Ted's well drawn portrait!

I intended to post the following a few days ago, but we're bringing a new puppy and the preparations have put me behind. My youngest daughter came up with the name "sunny" for our new pooch. When I asked her why, she said, "Because a dog brings joy into your life, like the sun!" If you heard something hit the floor, that was proud papa swooning! :)

Face, I enjoyed your comments very much. The following is directed to Lake's intriguing categories and CO's remarks.

My curiousity about common traits among individuals attracted to scientology is not an attempt to pidgeon hole anyone. No one has suggested otherwise, I just wanted to underline that.

Lakey, your categories are very helpful in framing the picture of what made scientology attractive in those early years. I might question category #4. Are you saying that “leadership types” were attracted to COS simply because they were “looking for something, anything, to lead?” Or were you describing the group within COS that naturally rose to leadership, for whatever reason?

You are right! Why was Yvonne Gillham Jentzch attracted to Scientology? I was not because she was a leader. Something else attracted her, she would have risen to be a leader in any group she joined. She told me once, talking about Hubbard's "The Factors" issued in 1953 that when she first heard the Factor's she knew immediately that Scientology was her life's work. I no longer remember the exact words she used but it was something to that effect. The same with the other leaders, none of them joined because they were leaders but for something they saw in Hubbard and the subject of Scn.

I tend to think of “Movers and shakers” as a subset in any group. If you started a club called, “People Who Refuse To Take Responsibility” - somebody would ascend to a leadership position. Even in a group called, “People Who Insist on Leading” - the selection process might be messy, but someone would ascend to the leadership.

Recognizing these are broad characterizations, let me run through your groups to see if I understand.

1. The Technical Boys. These are individuals seeking, “something higher “ but their scientific nature makes it difficult to make the “leap of faith” that characterizes traditional religions. They are seeking a a tangible, logical, path to enlightenment. This is the crowd that stood behind Thomas Acquinas, anxiously waiting for that master logician to complete the scientific path to God. Interesting!

2. Creative Types and Entertainers. The appeal here seems understandable. The danger arises if these folks loose sight of the line between creative fantasy and reality.

A sidenote here. You wrote that this group,



I've never known what to make of the fact that so much of what western "seekers" have sought, was always in the back-yard. Unfortunately, often with a tarp thrown over it by the churches themselves!

Over many years, western Judaism and Christianity have hidden the rich tapestry from which they evolved. They have honed their message so uniformly, that for many, the profound richness from whence the religion came is lost. There are historical reasons for this, nonetheless, the result may seem rather homogenized to some.

I've logged a few hours studying western religion. To me, every impulse, vision, mystic sensibility or message that one might seek outside of western religion is also richly available within it. I don't mean that as a slight to other religions, it's just an observation. I also understand the allure of "grass that's greener on the other side." Still, it's a tremendous irony that much of what a western "seeker" might look for in a faraway place and a foriegn language, is so close to home. You have to know how to fish for it, but it is there.

And it is like fishing. I live in a town that features some of the best bass fishing on the east coast. So where do my friends and I fish? Thirty miles east! As I get older though, I stay closer to home and pull fish out of "honey holes" just as sweet as any to be found elsewhere.

3. Misfits. Face, I found my group! So many of us qualify in one way or another that this category seems difficult to generalize. That may account for it being a transitional category as A Lake sauggests. One possibly valid generalization is that misfits don't tend to be especially objective. The personal baggage that defines their "misfit-ness" may tend hinder a level viewpoint.

CO, I don't know if it's related, but your philosphy friend caught my attention.



Maybe your friend is a misfit of a different stripe? I've encountered obtuse philosophy profs, but the majority were exceptional realists who could summarize and hone actual events with stunning acuity. There's even some objective proof of this. Since the 1980's the dominant focus of philosophy has been medical ethics, environmental ethics, and other practical questions.

This was a somewhat controversial shift that came under the heading of "applied philosophy." Philosophy took advantage of the growing number of challenging ethics cases and started specializing in answering difficult questions. Since that time, lawmakers trying to craft legislation on, with-holding life support, life in the womb, assisted suicide, etc. have been turning to philosophy for analytic assistance. It's used to be a sardonic inside joke that if you're can't decide whether to pull the plug, "who ya gonna call? ethics-busters."

These days, LRH would have a hard deriding philosophers as ivory tower featherheads with no connection to "the real world." And of course LRH's remark was never correct. The only thing that remark proves is that Mr. Hubbard knew very little about actual philopshopy.

I'm going to leave off here. BRB, after bringing home puppy! :thumbsup:

fisherman

Congratulations on your puppy, Sunny and also on revealing things about your fishing experiences. That must be why you picked your screen name as Fisherman. Speaking of screen names, you are calling me Lake now instead of Lakey and also added the term A Lake above. Those are all cute, feel free to use them.

Good analysis, Leaders, and movers and shakers should not be a separate category but should were a trait found in all categories.

Fisherman did you see my follow up post where I introduced a Category 5 which were people routinely attracted to the occult and other unusual groups. There were plenty of that category in Scientology. Also, I brought out length of stay. Carmelo, staying only 8 years was quite different in many ways from those of us who stayed 25 or 30 years.

As to your comments regarding the Judeo Christian religions, I find them a completely different game than the Vedic religions. Christianity and Judaism have the concept of God as a creator, a God who we somewhat resemble and who we are in propitiation to and to whom we supplicate. In Buddhism for instance, there is no person such as a personal God. You are encouraged to meditate, quite yourself down and look within yourself to recover answers. There is a concept of a cosmic linkage where all living things are connected in the manner of a large net or a very large box spring mattress. Movement at one point on the net or mattress effects the entire mattress. I found none of these things present in Judaism and even less of them present in Christianity. Judaism introduces a Father or a Creator who almost has a personality such as a mighty being. Christianity introduces an additional figure, Christ, an entity who has taken responsibility for everyones' sins, thus absolving people from responsibility. Accept Christ as your savior and you have it made, heaven is yours. I don't see any similarity in that to Buddhism or Hinduism.

I believe we are nearing the end our mutual research of decoding LRH. We have this subject more nailed down than I thought would ever be possible. How about yourself, are your main questions finally being answered to your satisfaction?
A lake, the lakester,Lake aka Lakey
 
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When I was younger than 5, I saw a church being built down the street. I thought to myself, "There goes the neighborhood."

My parents took me to church every week for a little while when I was young. It wasn't something I wanted to do. I found sitting on my front porch in the sun a far better place to be.

As I've gotten older, I'v become more tolerant of Christians.

The path I've been following since I was 14 is to help people of all ages, cultures, hang ups, etc.

Finding what makes people tick and then utilizing the knowledge. It is as true today, as it was in 1964.

In regard to dogs, do dog school. It is not for the dogs, half as much as it is for the humans in the dog's life.

We tried getting our dog to shake hands for months to no avail. The trainer taught us how to get his cooperation in that activity in 2 minutes. It is all about looking at existence from your dog's point of view.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lakey, I suspect Ted's right, that many virtuous individuals were taken advantage of by Hubbard's immorality, "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of law, when smashing one's name into legendary history." I guess? Thanks for posting Ted's well drawn portrait!

I intended to post the following a few days ago, but we're bringing a new puppy and the preparations have put me behind. My youngest daughter came up with the name "sunny" for our new pooch. When I asked her why, she said, "Because a dog brings joy into your life, like the sun!" If you heard something hit the floor, that was proud papa swooning! :)

Face, I enjoyed your comments very much. The following is directed to Lake's intriguing categories and CO's remarks.

My curiousity about common traits among individuals attracted to scientology is not an attempt to pidgeon hole anyone. No one has suggested otherwise, I just wanted to underline that.

Lakey, your categories are very helpful in framing the picture of what made scientology attractive in those early years. I might question category #4. Are you saying that “leadership types” were attracted to COS simply because they were “looking for something, anything, to lead?” Or were you describing the group within COS that naturally rose to leadership, for whatever reason?

I tend to think of “Movers and shakers” as a subset in any group. If you started a club called, “People Who Refuse To Take Responsibility” - somebody would ascend to a leadership position. Even in a group called, “People Who Insist on Leading” - the selection process might be messy, but someone would ascend to the leadership.

Recognizing these are broad characterizations, let me run through your groups to see if I understand.

1. The Technical Boys. These are individuals seeking, “something higher “ but their scientific nature makes it difficult to make the “leap of faith” that characterizes traditional religions. They are seeking a a tangible, logical, path to enlightenment. This is the crowd that stood behind Thomas Acquinas, anxiously waiting for that master logician to complete the scientific path to God. Interesting!

2. Creative Types and Entertainers. The appeal here seems understandable. The danger arises if these folks loose sight of the line between creative fantasy and reality.

A sidenote here. You wrote that this group,



I've never known what to make of the fact that so much of what western "seekers" have sought, was always in the back-yard. Unfortunately, often with a tarp thrown over it by the churches themselves!

Over many years, western Judaism and Christianity have hidden the rich tapestry from which they evolved. They have honed their message so uniformly, that for many, the profound richness from whence the religion came is lost. There are historical reasons for this, nonetheless, the result may seem rather homogenized to some.

I've logged a few hours studying western religion. To me, every impulse, vision, mystic sensibility or message that one might seek outside of western religion is also richly available within it. I don't mean that as a slight to other religions, it's just an observation. I also understand the allure of "grass that's greener on the other side." Still, it's a tremendous irony that much of what a western "seeker" might look for in a faraway place and a foriegn language, is so close to home. You have to know how to fish for it, but it is there.

And it is like fishing. I live in a town that features some of the best bass fishing on the east coast. So where do my friends and I fish? Thirty miles east! As I get older though, I stay closer to home and pull fish out of "honey holes" just as sweet as any to be found elsewhere.

3. Misfits. Face, I found my group! So many of us qualify in one way or another that this category seems difficult to generalize. That may account for it being a transitional category as A Lake sauggests. One possibly valid generalization is that misfits don't tend to be especially objective. The personal baggage that defines their "misfit-ness" may tend hinder a level viewpoint.

CO, I don't know if it's related, but your philosphy friend caught my attention.



Maybe your friend is a misfit of a different stripe? I've encountered obtuse philosophy profs, but the majority were exceptional realists who could summarize and hone actual events with stunning acuity. There's even some objective proof of this. Since the 1980's the dominant focus of philosophy has been medical ethics, environmental ethics, and other practical questions.

This was a somewhat controversial shift that came under the heading of "applied philosophy." Philosophy took advantage of the growing number of challenging ethics cases and started specializing in answering difficult questions. Since that time, lawmakers trying to craft legislation on, with-holding life support, life in the womb, assisted suicide, etc. have been turning to philosophy for analytic assistance. It's used to be a sardonic inside joke that if you're can't decide whether to pull the plug, "who ya gonna call? ethics-busters."

These days, LRH would have a hard deriding philosophers as ivory tower featherheads with no connection to "the real world." And of course LRH's remark was never correct. The only thing that remark proves is that Mr. Hubbard knew very little about actual philopshopy.

I'm going to leave off here. BRB, after bringing home puppy! :thumbsup:

fisherman

Great stuff, Fisherman.:thumbsup:

Congrats on the pooch. Carmelo's right...a good trainer will make both you and the pooch have a better life together. One thing I did was to have my kids not only be part of the training sessions but to learn to be the lead in caring for the their little pal.

Like Ben Franklin said...there are only 3 true friends in this world...An old wife, a dog and ready money.:yes:

I'm workin' on part 4.

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
What I bought into and Why, Part 4

“Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense.” Sir Winston Churchill

“It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.” Mark Twain

Near the end of my Soph year the Butcher merged his shop with a local grocer and created the first quasi supermarket in our little town. Already a trained meat cutter, I learned to order and handle a produce section, grocery section and Dairy box. I was lightening fast on a cash register and stocking shelves, popular with the customers, many of whom had become very friendly, interested in me and became my own little booster club. Football was becoming my best sport, Lettering as a Soph and in my Junior year I was first string Slotback and Strong Safety (All League, Honorable Mention). Academically I wasn’t a super star but was holding my own in the advance college prep group. I was dating the daughter—a real looker and a Senior— of two professors at the county community college and life was good, life was simple.

Then began a series of events that would drastically alter the course of my life and, eventually, usher me in to Scientology.

My father found another woman in another town about 60 miles away that was more to his liking and just happened to be a wealthy widow. In December of my Junior year he just disappeared one day, called my mother and told her it was over, that he wasn’t coming back and that was final. I didn’t hear squat or see boo of him for 6 months. My mother, of course, was a basket case. She spent hours in tirades about how bad he was and how I was just like him and she pitied any woman that would marry me. Her “fallback” was Jesus and, though already a Born Again, Fundamentalist Christian, she left the bible thumper church that she and my father were longtime members of and fell in with an evangelical, speaking in tongues, literally Holy Roller bunch. Often when I came home at 9:00 after work she’d have a dozen or more of her new “friends” in the house and some of them would be rolling on the floor, shaking and ranting in “tongues” while the rest sat there moaning, “Praise Jesus, Yes Jesus, take me Jesus”. She’d insisted that I always come and say “hello” to each one of them. The look in their eyes was real spooky and it all creeped me out…bad.

School, work and sports, more than ever, became my refuge. I’d leave home early in the morning after my chores and came back late in the evening, do some chores, study some, read some and try to sleep. In some ways my life had not change all that much from my parents situation. I had many friends at school, had all my customer friends at work and my jock buddies. My father had never attended one my games and I could count on one hand the number of times we had done father/son stuff and even then, it was about him. My mother had only been to one game, which we lost, and afterwards she derided for how poorly I and teammates had played. She had also attended a couple choir performances but again, as far as she was concerned I wasn’t and the choir wasn’t very good. Of course, all four years I was in High School I had sung in the Advanced/Madrigal Choir and all four of those years our group received 9 out 9 Superior ratings at the Regional a cappella tournament. I rarely ever talked with anyone about my home life as it was embarrassing to me and seemed pointless. I knew what the solution was—to walk away when I finished High School…that was my hope, my dream and I thought little about my future beyond that.

Our football team that year went from next to last place my Soph year to second place. We had a new coach that was young, really good, inspiring and very much into making us the best men and team we could be. By the end of the year 70% of the starters were my fellow juniors. We had a good shot at being league champions our Senior year. After the season Mr. Head Coach called me into his office for a chat. He told me that as long as I kept my grades up he was confident I could get a scholarship to a Division II school, possibly Division 1AA, maybe even a 1A. He said he’d help me all he could to get one but I needed to make some choices.

I was an OK basketball player but likely to never be a starter, he said. He was right and I agreed. I was a good Baseball player, a pitcher with a gun for an arm but control problems and it would take a lot of work and practice to be a starter. He was right and I agreed. “Okay, Face,” he said, “here’s my deal, man to man. You give up basketball and baseball. Next semester I’ll get you put in my last period PE class. The rules won’t let me teach to any football but It will let me coach at weight training, agility and conditioning. Both terms this summer school the rules say that me and one other coach can teach body building and conditioning and you take both terms. We gotta get you bigger and quicker. You’re going to be the 2nd string Slotback next year because we’re going to concentrate on the position that you’ve got the best shot at getting a full ride.”

“You’re a real hitter son.” Coach continued. “You gotta a good head for the game and a nose for the ball. Look Face, I know you’ve got some tough stuff going on and I’m not gonna tell you how I know that, but I do, and that’s none of my business. What my business is is to make boys into men and, as far as I’m concerned you’re farther along than most…you just gotta suck it up and put it in the end zone, son. I can and I will help you, but you’re the one that’s gotta carry the ball.” He told me to think about, that it was my decision and up to me, that simple.

For me it was Ms. Angel and the Butcher all over again…someone believed in me, someone was gonna help me and give me a chance. I told Coach, then and there without hesitation, I was in and I wasn’t going to let him down. We stood up and shook hands, eye to eye, man to man. For weeks my head was in the clouds. I was gonna do this…no matter what it took, I was going to give it everything I had…I was going to make this happen! Nothing and no one was going to stop me.

Over the course of the rest of the school year I had less and less time for my personal reading pursuits. My focus was on preparing for the coming football season and my coming opportunity to vault into a new life. My reading shifted to stories of overcoming adversity, of determination and the “Philosophy and Tech” of football.

I could sense it, I could feel it in my heart and soul!

My moment was upon me!

Face :)
 
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FoTi

Crusader
Great post Face. Good idea to post it here as well as the other place.
Lakey

I'm confused, Lakey. Why should Face post his own story in the thread about A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard when he's already posted it under the Apollo thread? How does it relate here? It's his story and not about Hubbard.

I don't understand why people are double posting recently. I read one thread and then I go to read another thread on another subject and I run into the same post that I've already read somewhere else. There's already so much going on here sometimes, it's hard to catch up and if one has to read the same posts over again that one has already read, it takes up that much more time. I don't get it.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm confused, Lakey. Why should Face post his own story in the thread about A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard when he's already posted it under the Apollo thread? How does it relate here? It's his story and not about Hubbard.

I don't understand why people are double posting recently. I read one thread and then I go to read another thread on another subject and I run into the same post that I've already read somewhere else. There's already so much going on here sometimes, it's hard to catch up and if one has to read the same posts over again that one has already read, it takes up that much more time. I don't get it.

I posted it here as it is part of a series in my attempting to answer Fisherman's questions from a post a made earlier in this thread re: El Ron and why would some of us get involved with El Ron and Scn. I am also posting it in the Apollo '73 thread as it part of my "Readers Digest" Treatments that I have been posting there for months.

I have made reference to the fact of this double posting on the Apollo '73 thread and this thread on the three previous postings that I have double posted regarding this series. Obviously, I should have made note of that fact a 4th time. I apologize to all.

If Fisherman or Lakey wish that I not do this any more then I'll stop posting it here. Fisherman asked several posts ago if I wanted to move this discussion to "My Story" and I declined as I am taking the time, in my round about and unfortunately slow, cumbersome and plodding way to answer a question pertaining to El Ron and me.

So, y'all get together and decide what you want me to do...post on Apollo '73, post here or take my posting to another thread or start a new thread for my "Reader's Disgest" postings.

Face:)
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
FoTi and Face

I posted it here as it is part of a series in my attempting to answer Fisherman's questions from a post a made earlier in this thread re: El Ron and why wouldd some of us get involved with El Ron and Scn. I am also posting it in the Apollo '73 thread as it part of my "Readers Digest" Treatments that I have been posting there for months.

I have made reference to the fact of this double posting on the Apollo '73 thread and this thread on the three previous postings that I have double posted regarding this series. Obviously, I should have made not of that fact a 4th time. I apologize to all.

If Fisherman or Lakey wish that I not do this any more than I'll stop posting it here. Fisherman asked several posts ago if I wanted to move this discussion to "My Story" and I declined as I am taking the time, in my round about way, to answer a question pertaining to El Ron and me.

So, y'all get together and decide what you want me to do...post on Apollo '73, post here or take my posting to another thread or start a new thread for my "Reader's Disgest" postings.

Face:)

FoTi: There was method to Face's apparent madness which makes sense. If you have already read the post, it would seem to me to just skip to the next post and not bother to read it over again. That's a small price to pay to have Face reach both of his target audiences.
Lakey
 
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