Accomplishments of Anonymous/Critics

Zander

Patron with Honors
Next week, it will have been 6 months since Anonymous appeared and changed the Critics of Scientology scene forever.

The word has gotten out about the abuses of the cult like never before. 6 monthly global protests with thousands of people protesting outside every major org on the planet, youtube videos exposing Scientology, hundreds of thousands of people educated about Scientology.

But when it comes to the major abuses that the Church of Scientology wages against its members:
  • Enforced Abortions
  • Enforced Disconnections resulting in the destruction of thousands of families
  • The Suppression of the freedom of speech, the rights to property and employment abuses
What has been accomplished?

I know of nothing that has actually produced any reform on the Church in any of these areas. Am I ignernt? Did I miss it?

Also, what else has been accomplished?

I know that the Church can't keep people from selling their meters on EBay any more.

Anything else?

Reform within the cofs will be very slow.

And it will not be because they want to, it will be because of enforcement by government bodies (who also act very slowly).

However the immediate effects of Anonymous are that they are making the issues known, hindering the recruitment of new scientologists and helping those still in scn to see the true nature of the organization. And we know that many are leaving because of that.

Zander
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Reform within the cofs will be very slow.

And it will not be because they want to, it will be because of enforcement by government bodies (who also act very slowly).

I agree. That's what I'm saying.

Protesting has beneficial effects. Critical Media can be devastating to their business.

But the only way the Church will stop abusing their parishioners is if they are forced to do so by governments.

A battery charge against David Miscavige, which I believe is simply a misdemeanor, would put him behind bars and empower every one else who was beaten by him to re-think their own silence.

If Miscavige beats his staff, and has done so for over 20 years, why has no one simply filed charges against him?

However the immediate effects of Anonymous are that they are making the issues known, hindering the recruitment of new scientologists and helping those still in scn to see the true nature of the organization. And we know that many are leaving because of that.

True. The reason the cult puts up the high walls around their orgs is Information Control. They can not operate as a cult without it. If every member of the Church could read, listen to, and evaluate all data about Scientology then the church would be instantly "dismantled in its present form".

And so picket signs held up across the street can break through those walls.

But Jeez. Come on. Isn't there something more effective than that?

If there are crimes then there should be criminal charges. Nothing breaks down information control like a subpoena.
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Hi Alanzo

I think there may be a contradiction between what you say on this thread and what you said here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=113282&postcount=96
"They routinely document the crimes that Scientologists commit against them, and beat the Church at its own game! All with the discipline and application of some of the best Ghandi Tech I've ever witnessed."

This in itself is an invaluable contribution to the wider picture. The awareness of Scn abuses is spreading, thanks to anonymous protests.

At Plymouth, Mrs A heard a young lady passing the protest say to her friend "oh it's anonymous".

At London on Saturday there were far more car horns honked in support of anonymous than previously and all the passing buses had about half the occupants applauding anonymous.

Add to this the four-page article in the Times in June and Neo's fantastic work in Melbourne and it is clear to me there is a growing public awareness.

You and I can't know what effect this is having internally in Scn, but on picket days, I do see no body-routing.

As Bonnie said to me months ago, if nothing else we have all these young people who will never be sucked into the cult! :thumbsup: This alone, makes what anonymous is doing worthwhile.

An anon told me on Saturday that he knew that if he hadn't found anonymous, he could easily have been attracted by the CofS.

Be patient Alanzo, the CofS will collapse and hopefully a government will intervene to hasten the death. Things are going on behind the scenes. There is an activism taking place that is not seen. The pickets are just the publically visible activity. :thumbsup:

Governments are slow to act, but there are signs that the CofS is crumbling under their attention. For example "staff wanted" signs have now been taken down in the UK and we know the UK government is investigating staff contracts!

Whether or not a government actually moves in on the CofS, I believe we will see a collapse similar to the collapse of communism or Apartheid in SA. I believe the CofS is destroying itself from within and the pressure from anonymous and boards like ESMB is the catalyst that speeds up this inevitable process. :yes:
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Next week, it will have been 6 months since Anonymous appeared and changed the Critics of Scientology scene forever.

The word has gotten out about the abuses of the cult like never before. 6 monthly global protests with thousands of people protesting outside every major org on the planet, youtube videos exposing Scientology, hundreds of thousands of people educated about Scientology.

But when it comes to the major abuses that the Church of Scientology wages against its members:
  • Enforced Abortions
  • Enforced Disconnections resulting in the destruction of thousands of families
  • The Suppression of the freedom of speech, the rights to property and employment abuses
What has been accomplished?

I know of nothing that has actually produced any reform on the Church in any of these areas. Am I ignernt? Did I miss it?

Also, what else has been accomplished?

I know that the Church can't keep people from selling their meters on EBay any more.

Anything else?

Alanzo,

I don’t think that we will see the full extent of the difference made by the advent of Anonymous for quite some time. It is my firm belief that in the years to come, people will look back on this time as the tipping point for the CoS. The beginning of the end.

I never expected them to just curl up and die. They have huge resources, dedicated followers and have shown themselves to be very durable. But, they are plainly in decline now.

It seems to me that the CoS is being crushed in a vice. The pressure is increasing inexorably. Eventually it will shatter, it simply has to. The CoS has made countless enemies and lost most of the few friends that they had. How many non-Scientologists are speaking up for them nowadays? They are isolated, publicly ridiculed and under attack. They are in the public spotlight as never before. Their abuses are being exposed and they cannot hide.

You ask what has been accomplished?

People are being informed. They are learning the truth about what the CoS stands for. This will make it very difficult to recruit new victims as well as hold onto existing ones. The CoS cannot survive without new sources of income.

People are no longer afraid to come forward with their stories. Previously, the CoS could silence the few critics that did speak out. Not anymore – there are too many. Don’t underestimate the power of people just telling the truth. For example, we have certainly not heard the last of Jason Beghe. The ramifications for the CoS will be immense.

People are asking questions and making complaints. This leads to investigations and quite probably criminal charges. The CoS has little regard for laws, but they cannot flout them indefinitely without being caught. You cannot keep abusing people without it catching up someday. There are many things happening which will not become known for quite some time.

I never expected them to suddenly change all their policies. They can’t. These are handed down to them as the Word of God. But, at some point even the CoS senior management (what’s left of them) will realise that they have to change to survive. Eventually, all but the most myopic will see that Miscavige has been lying and has brought all this down upon them. When that happens, expect to see wholesale changes with the CoS.

Axiom142
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Hi Alanzo

I think there may be a contradiction between what you say on this thread and what you said here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=113282&postcount=96
"They routinely document the crimes that Scientologists commit against them, and beat the Church at its own game! All with the discipline and application of some of the best Ghandi Tech I've ever witnessed."

This thread is for exploring the accomplishments after six months of these global protests.

In this thread, I'm interested in seeing how the enforced abortions, the destruction of families, the suppression of property, employment and speech rights actually stop. End. Are brought to a close once and for all in the Church of Scientology.

This in itself is an invaluable contribution to the wider picture. The awareness of Scn abuses is spreading, thanks to anonymous protests.

At Plymouth, Mrs A heard a young lady passing the protest say to her friend "oh it's anonymous".

At London on Saturday there were far more car horns honked in support of anonymous than previously and all the passing buses had about half the occupants applauding anonymous.

Add to this the four-page article in the Times in June and Neo's fantastic work in Melbourne and it is clear to me there is a growing public awareness.

You and I can't know what effect this is having internally in Scn, but on picket days, I do see no body-routing.

As Bonnie said to me months ago, if nothing else we have all these young people who will never be sucked into the cult! :thumbsup: This alone, makes what anonymous is doing worthwhile.

An anon told me on Saturday that he knew that if he hadn't found anonymous, he could easily have been attracted by the CofS.

Be patient Alanzo, the CofS will collapse and hopefully a government will intervene to hasten the death. Things are going on behind the scenes. There is an activism taking place that is not seen. The pickets are just the publically visible activity. :thumbsup:
Like what?

Governments are slow to act, but there are signs that the CofS is crumbling under their attention. For example "staff wanted" signs have now been taken down in the UK and we know the UK government is investigating staff contracts!
This is VERY good. If it results in the elimination of the slavery and abuse of employment rights for staff then this will be a major victory in the U.K.

My point is that protests did not create this. Maybe it woke enough people up who knew what to do, but protesting would never get this effective action to occur.

How can more things like this happen?

Whether or not a government actually moves in on the CofS, I believe we will see a collapse similar to the collapse of communism or Apartheid in SA. I believe the CofS is destroying itself from within and the pressure from anonymous and boards like ESMB is the catalyst that speeds up this inevitable process. :yes:
I think that's "whistling past the graveyard".

the Scientology mindset is based upon a siege mentality of multiple enemies all around. Anonymous is "their SPs". Protests enforce the Scientology mindset for those still in.

When the FDA raided and seized all the cults meters, then Hubbard was forced to refrain from telling people with cancer that auditing will cure it, if they would just buy enough of it.

Before the FDA raided him, nothing would stop him from doing that.

Do you think that without a raid on DM by child labor agencies, or government employment agencies, that DM will simply start paying people what they are worth?

No way.

So which goverment agencies need to be contacted for each of the specific abuses I've outlined:

Enforced abortions in the Sea Org

The destruction of families through enforced disconnection

The suppression of rights of Speech, employment and property

In the United States?

Does anyone know?
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
What time of day was that?

Whenever I've gone past they've always had people out doing stress
tests leaflets etc. In fact this is the prime function of TCR. When I used to
work there things didn't usually get started till after 10.



This was what i would be consider to be prime time - about 1pm.Unless of course everything shuts for lunch?

TCR was packed with people.
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Like what?

You are not so naive as to think these things are going to be broadcast on ESMB!
This is VERY good. If it results in the elimination of the slavery and abuse of employment rights for staff then this will be a major victory in the U.K.

My point is that protests did not create this. Maybe it woke enough people up who knew what to do, but protesting would never get this effective action to occur.

Oh yes they did create this! It was the protest movement and the networking that resulted that has instigated and co-ordinated the whole Wage project! Let's see what happens next. And what makes you think this will only have repercussions in the UK? What about the EC? What about Australia? What about US labor laws?

How can more things like this happen?

I think that's "whistling past the graveyard".

the Scientology mindset is based upon a siege mentality of multiple enemies all around. Anonymous is "their SPs". Protests enforce the Scientology mindset for those still in.

When the FDA raided and seized all the cults meters, then Hubbard was forced to refrain from telling people with cancer that auditing will cure it, if they would just buy enough of it.

Before the FDA raided him, nothing would stop him from doing that.

Do you think that without a raid on DM by child labor agencies, or government employment agencies, that DM will simply start paying people what they are worth?

No way.

You are being unecessarily critical and pessimistic in your reply.
So which goverment agencies need to be contacted for each of the specific abuses I've outlined:

Enforced abortions in the Sea Org

The destruction of families through enforced disconnection

The suppression of rights of Speech, employment and property

In the United States?

Does anyone know?

It is up to you guys in the USA to do whatever you can. You too Alanzo! :wink2: Personally I have found it sometimes frustrating how much spectatorism there is amongst exes, so I have some understanding if you are feeling frustrated Alanzo. But people are what they are.

Yesterday I heard from two old friends who Mrs A and I haven't heard of since the early 80's. They don't protest, they have stayed out of the whole thing. But it turns out they watch what anonymous do on You-Tube and are completely behind what they are doing, just right now they can't take part for personal reasons.

This taught me that quietness does not mean apathy. People are what they are and do what they do.

But Alanzo, instead of criticising anonymous for not being effective enough, what, my friend, are you going to do so that you don't feel frustrated any more?
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
What time of day was that?

Whenever I've gone past they've always had people out doing stress
tests leaflets etc. In fact this is the prime function of TCR. When I used to
work there things didn't usually get started till after 10.



This was what i would be consider to be prime time - about 1pm.Unless of course everything shuts for lunch?

TCR was packed with people.

Thanks for the report Tammy! This appears to be a startling development! :thumbsup:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
You are not so naive as to think these things are going to be broadcast on ESMB!

Oh. Well if there is some effective strategy being implemented with real life government agencies that are taking real life actions in the real world, then I am interested to see how I can help from my area.

Oh yes they did create this! It was the protest movement and the networking that resulted that has instigated and co-ordinated the whole Wage project! Let's see what happens next. And what makes you think this will only have repercussions in the UK? What about the EC? What about Australia? What about US labor laws?
I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

You are being unecessarily critical and pessimistic in your reply.
And you are being unnecessarily vague and defensive in yours.

It is up to you guys in the USA to do whatever you can. You too Alanzo! :wink2: Personally I have found it sometimes frustrating how much spectatorism there is amongst exes, so I have some understanding if you are feeling frustrated Alanzo. But people are what they are.

Yesterday I heard from two old friends who Mrs A and I haven't heard of since the early 80's. They don't protest, they have stayed out of the whole thing. But it turns out they watch what anonymous do on You-Tube and are completely behind what they are doing, just right now they can't take part for personal reasons.

This taught me that quietness does not mean apathy. People are what they are and do what they do.

But Alanzo, instead of criticising anonymous for not being effective enough, what, my friend, are you going to do so that you don't feel frustrated any more?
That's the reason for the thread, Asagai.

This is not a thread that is devoted to the criticism of Anonymous.

It is a thread I started to discuss what CAN be done that is more effective than simply protesting.

I'd like to actually find out how to rid the Church of Scientology of its abuse of Scientologists once and for all by getting the proper governmental agencies to use their power to end it.

Does anyone have any data on how to do that in the USA?
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Oh. Well if there is some effective strategy being implemented with real life government agencies that are taking real life actions in the real world, then I am interested to see how I can help from my area.

I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

And you are being unnecessarily vague and defensive in yours.

That's the reason for the thread, Asagai.

This is not a thread that is devoted to the criticism of Anonymous.

It is a thread I started to discuss what CAN be done that is more effective than simply protesting.

I'd like to actually find out how to rid the Church of Scientology of its abuse of Scientologists once and for all by getting the proper governmental agencies to use their power to end it.

Does anyone have any data on how to do that in the USA?

Cool! Start with Larry brennans affidavit: http://crackpotpress.com/crackpot/images/stories/pdf/crs.pdf

Somewhere someone posted about US labor laws, I'll see if I can find it. Hold on, I'll get back to you!
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Cool! Start with Larry brennans affidavit: http://crackpotpress.com/crackpot/images/stories/pdf/crs.pdf

Somewhere someone posted about US labor laws, I'll see if I can find it. Hold on, I'll get back to you!

It took some finding, but here it is:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=98631&postcount=1
As you can see it went down like a lead balloon - no replies! :melodramatic:

It's not very well written, but it seemed to me to have some useful info for USA people who want to investigate US labor laws.

Here's another interesting post about sec checks and Polygraph Protection Act
http://forums.enturbulation.org/331525-post121/

The "operation safezone" looks like something that might suit you Alanzo.http://forums.enturbulation.org/12-current-projects/operation-safezone-20120/

And there is this one
http://forums.enturbulation.org/12-current-projects/americans-plan-get-scn-tax-looked-16374/

There, that should keep you going for a while!

I remember you lost your enturb membership when the site got re-vamped quite a while ago, but it is simple enough to rejoin. I find that one builds up a network of contacts and lots of the work goes on behind the scenes in PMs.

Welcome to the world of activism Alanzo!

I find it frustrating at times. But it helps to balance the plotting by attending the pickets for some lulz and caek! :D
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Would you? Be honest.

Paul

Yes.

While I have never been in a working environment where someone even threatened physical violence for any reason, I do believe that I would be very much unable to look the other way. And I believe that physical violence would be a clear indication that something was very very wrong to me and my legal options would be very much on my mind.

I do not take kindly to violent domination.

Even those who tried to verbally dominate me, after I began to realize what was going on, had a very hard time with me in Scientology and at work. A very hard time. In fact, it was the continued attempt to verbally abuse me in board meetings that was the last straw for me, and I let my boss - the President and the Co-Owner of the company - have it for three days straight in front of other execs, including HR in the company.

Physical violence, I believe, would just make me totally explode.

But, like I said, I've never been in that situation. I don't see how anyone who has been beaten by David Miscavige, and who is out in the real world, would ever NOT file charges against him - especially knowing the good it would do to end the abuse of others.

This is as honest answer as I can give you, Paul.

Are you saying that you would act differently?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
It took some finding, but here it is:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=98631&postcount=1
As you can see it went down like a lead balloon - no replies! :melodramatic:

It's not very well written, but it seemed to me to have some useful info for USA people who want to investigate US labor laws.

Here's another interesting post about sec checks and Polygraph Protection Act
http://forums.enturbulation.org/331525-post121/

The "operation safezone" looks like something that might suit you Alanzo.http://forums.enturbulation.org/12-current-projects/operation-safezone-20120/

And there is this one
http://forums.enturbulation.org/12-current-projects/americans-plan-get-scn-tax-looked-16374/

There, that should keep you going for a while!

I remember you lost your enturb membership when the site got re-vamped quite a while ago, but it is simple enough to rejoin. I find that one builds up a network of contacts and lots of the work goes on behind the scenes in PMs.

Welcome to the world of activism Alanzo!

I find it frustrating at times. But it helps to balance the plotting by attending the pickets for some lulz and caek! :D

Thank you for this.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes.

While I have never been in a working environment where someone even threatened physical violence for any reason, I do believe that I would be very much unable to look the other way. And I believe that physical violence would be a clear indication that something was very very wrong to me and my legal options would be very much on my mind.

I do not take kindly to violent domination.

Even those who tried to verbally dominate me, after I began to realize what was going on, had a very hard time with me in Scientology and at work. A very hard time. In fact, it was the continued attempt to verbally abuse me in board meetings that was the last straw for me, and I let my boss - the President and the Co-Owner of the company - have it for three days straight in front of other execs, including HR in the company.

Physical violence, I believe, would just make me totally explode.

But, like I said, I've never been in that situation. I don't see how anyone who has been beaten by David Miscavige, and who is out in the real world, would ever NOT file charges against him - especially knowing the good it would do to end the abuse of others.

This is as honest answer as I can give you, Paul.

Are you saying that you would act differently?

I am similar in that I hate anyone trying to intimidate me. But, it’s not always easy to stand one’s ground. When I was in the Sea Org, I had the CO of CLO scream in my face for about 5 mins solid. I was sat down, penned in the corner of an office and I couldn’t do anything to get out of it. If I had done anything to fight back, I know the consequences would have been severe. And, I’m damn sure that no one would have been willing to be a witness for me. I saw other staff physically assaulted on several occasions. Very few staff would have been willing to stand up for those being abused.

Translate this to the Int Base where you couldn’t even look at DM the wrong way and it would be very easy to disappear without a trace, standing up for yourself would be virtually impossible. Something Jeff Hawkins said stands out for me. When he was beaten by Miscavige and lying on the ground, he was told “Get up, get up. Don’t make him wrong”. When that mindset is prevalent, how can you win?

OK, so you might eventually get to leave, many months or even years afterwards. But, how could you press charges? What evidence or witnesses would you have? And, if you did try to take action, you would be a threat to DM. Don’t underestimate how far some Scientologists might be prepared to go to remove such a threat.

I agree that DM should be punished for any abuses committed, but it won't be easy.

Axiom142
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I am similar in that I hate anyone trying to intimidate me. But, it’s not always easy to stand one’s ground. When I was in the Sea Org, I had the CO of CLO scream in my face for about 5 mins solid. I was sat down, penned in the corner of an office and I couldn’t do anything to get out of it. If I had done anything to fight back, I know the consequences would have been severe. And, I’m damn sure that no one would have been willing to be a witness for me. I saw other staff physically assaulted on several occasions. Very few staff would have been willing to stand up for those being abused.

Translate this to the Int Base where you couldn’t even look at DM the wrong way and it would be very easy to disappear without a trace, standing up for yourself would be virtually impossible. Something Jeff Hawkins said stands out for me. When he was beaten by Miscavige and lying on the ground, he was told “Get up, get up. Don’t make him wrong”. When that mindset is prevalent, how can you win?

OK, so you might eventually get to leave, many months or even years afterwards. But, how could you press charges? What evidence or witnesses would you have? And, if you did try to take action, you would be a threat to DM. Don’t underestimate how far some Scientologists might be prepared to go to remove such a threat.

I agree that DM should be punished for any abuses committed, but it won't be easy.

Axiom142

I don't understand why not. Assault and battery charges are filed every day. And prosecutors and police are very good at discovering and prosecuting the intimidation of witnesses and of the victims who file the criminal charges. This is very, very routine for them.

I am saying that if DM has been beating people for 20 years, it should be very easy to find someone to file criminal charges, and to protect them while their case goes to trial.

I would think that this is the single most simple and effective thing that could be done to produce an end to the abuse in the Church right now. And while he is out on bond, then the PR campaign would effectively discredit him and keep him from abusing others for at least the time that the trial would start.

Then, depending on the strength of the case, we could gain a conviction and put him behind bars.

Like I said, I do not know a better and more effective way to produce a huge effect right now than to do this.

My only question is, why hasn't it yet been done?
 

Zander

Patron with Honors
Yes.

While I have never been in a working environment where someone even threatened physical violence for any reason, I do believe that I would be very much unable to look the other way. And I believe that physical violence would be a clear indication that something was very very wrong to me and my legal options would be very much on my mind.

I do not take kindly to violent domination.

Even those who tried to verbally dominate me, after I began to realize what was going on, had a very hard time with me in Scientology and at work. A very hard time. In fact, it was the continued attempt to verbally abuse me in board meetings that was the last straw for me, and I let my boss - the President and the Co-Owner of the company - have it for three days straight in front of other execs, including HR in the company.

Physical violence, I believe, would just make me totally explode.

But, like I said, I've never been in that situation. I don't see how anyone who has been beaten by David Miscavige, and who is out in the real world, would ever NOT file charges against him - especially knowing the good it would do to end the abuse of others.

This is as honest answer as I can give you, Paul.

Are you saying that you would act differently?

That's good for you Alanzo, but I suspect they would come up with 5 witnesses to say that it was you who struck the first blow.

And anyone in that situation would know the extreme lengths to which they would go to avoid charges. And that is probably the situation faced by anyone thinking of reporting them.

If there were witnesses to substantiate the charges then I think this would be a different story, and this could happen if (or when) people start leaving en masse.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
This is VERY good. If it results in the elimination of the slavery and abuse of employment rights for staff then this will be a major victory in the U.K.

My point is that protests did not create this. Maybe it woke enough people up who knew what to do, but protesting would never get this effective action to occur.

How can more things like this happen?

Alanzo! You stuck on a weekly stat cycle?

Some things take longer. Like whisky. :)
 

solo

Patron with Honors
Back then

Axiom 142

you are one hell of a brave guy. I have read what you have written. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

Solo
 

Terril park

Sponsor
What time of day was that?

Whenever I've gone past they've always had people out doing stress
tests leaflets etc. In fact this is the prime function of TCR. When I used to
work there things didn't usually get started till after 10.



This was what i would be consider to be prime time - about 1pm.Unless of course everything shuts for lunch?

TCR was packed with people.

They don't shut for lunch.

They had loads of public inside doing stuff?

How many?
 
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