Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you guys

[clamicide]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

If he did that, the he would be much closer to the truth as far as the cost goes.

That wouldn't, of course, automatically make the rest of the original sentence true. To me, that still amounts to speculation-presented-as-fact and is contrary to my personal experience. Until I see a valid scientific study from reputable sources proving said speculation, I still echo Blip's oft-repeated; "Dox or GTFO!"

I guess it depends. I don't know that anyone keeps 'stats' on that sort of thing...the folks I knew who made it to OT3, DID spend hundreds of thousands... I used to go to fricking Freewinds events and IAS events where people made it a 'positive' of how they made it go right and spent "X" amount of dollars on the Bridge..donated "X" amounts of money to the IAS, and they "weren't rich".... because THAT WAS WHAT IT TOOK to go OT. I had heard that story so many times, I always assumed it took a ton of dough to go OT... or ya joined staff and made the org St. Hill size. So, maybe he is operating off of things he heard which might very well have been true. Maybe in Australia it was different. And now, (I hate to bring it up, because it could make everything be blamed on Davey Miscalculage, and I fully believe the !#$ started with Hubbard), donos for eligibility and whatever seem worse. A LOT of the $ spent going OT always seemed like extra crap for other stuff that wasn't listed on the official price list. I will give props to you folks who made it through OT3 for cheap...I just NEVER saw it in my neck of the woods. Shite, maybe it was because PAC and INT was always down our asses and made sure it didn't go that way?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Snipped ...

Posted by Atalantan

Aaaaaw, Atawantan is being so mean to poow bWiPPy!

I actually would like him to be more convincing. As is, I think he is likely to do more to keep people in than to get them out,or at least keep them away from ESMB As are you, when you refer to everyone who ever got in as being 'daft'. There must be a lot of 'daft' people here on ESMB, just judging by the name of the site.....

Hmmm, well I think (apart from generational scientologists) that we were all as daft as brushes for getting involved with Tubs and his cult, but it's just a word Atalantan and if the most able people on the planet with the highest confront on evil can't cope with it, well ... they are being a bit daft and soppy really aren't they, maybe they just need to get a grip.

People will either join ESMB or they won't, I'm more interested in people not getting sucked in in the first place.

The prices are all over the shop and always have been and it really depends upon how a person presents themselves IMO as to how much they get CS'd for and how adriot they are at stepping through the minefield, lets not pretend there is any science or logic involved (Terril was very clever attesting to natural clear as were many others who probably couldn't face the endless auditing it would have taken to go the normal route).

Whatever a person paid was too much, because we all know that clear and OT doesn't exist except perhaps in the few fragile minds that can't confront the truth.

 

[clamicide]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Cutting through the BS here.

I doubt whether the actual cost of OTIII is important in this "battle".

What is really being fought over is the importance or lack of imprtance in critics being loose with facts. Some consider it important - others don't.

I do.

The reason for this is that when I was on the fence, if I read anything I knew to be untrue regarding Scientology, and it was being passed off as fact, it immediately discredited that person, website etc in my own mind. As a result I found it hard to believe anything that was being said about that particular subject/topic from that person (or even other critics).

The example in this thread is that Infinite says it "costs hundreds of thousands of dollars before you get the Xenu story". That might be true in some circumstances and would not be true in others. I know lots of people who that actually isn't true for. And I know some who it is true for. It would depend enormously on each individuals situation, their case "shape", how close they lived to an AO, how educated in Scientology they were, how fast they ran in session, whether they had been on staff or not, whether they had done any co-auditing etc etc.

So to make a statement and then poo poo anyone who disagreed with it, when the statement is provably not accurate, is one of those things that gets up the nose of those who think accuracy is important when criticising Scientology.

Look, I do agree...but, fuck, like I just said in my other post, that was ALL I saw. And I was ACTUALLY in agreement with it at the time that it was fine to give up crazy dollars in the MEST world for something as eternal as OT. It's hard for me to get all pissy about this post about how much it takes to get to OT3 ,when every fucking OT I met, DID pay this much. That was the reality where I lived...and it just might take some sorting out.

It's not that I'm in disagreement with things not being exaggerated. I go psycho when I read the stuff about Hubbard dying on psych drugs when I've read the medical stuff about Vistaril...and I realize, it was medically indicated.

Argue about the other stuff... we are still gathering the data, and we still get justifications and (to me) weird bs on this board. Maybe I'm just still a little pissed off about the fact that a thread about cult-induced PTSD has become about 'bad auditing'...and 'responsibility'..

 

[Emma]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Hey Clammy, no one was having a go at you. You were actually "in" Scientology and saw what you saw. I'm sure in many cases it would have cost millions to go OTIII - especially if you had the dough and the reges knew it.

I think the point here is that there are some who were never in Scientology, and did not experience anything first hand, who think they know better about "everything" than those who were actually in, and who discredit testimony that differs from their own *theoretical* knowledge.

 

[guanoloco]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Cutting through the BS here.

I doubt whether the actual cost of OTIII is important in this "battle".

What is really being fought over is the importance or lack of imprtance in critics being loose with facts. Some consider it important - others don't.

I do.

The reason for this is that when I was on the fence, if I read anything I knew to be untrue regarding Scientology, and it was being passed off as fact, it immediately discredited that person, website etc in my own mind. As a result I found it hard to believe anything that was being said about that particular subject/topic from that person (or even other critics).

The example in this thread is that Infinite says it "costs hundreds of thousands of dollars before you get the Xenu story". That might be true in some circumstances and would not be true in others. I know lots of people who that actually isn't true for. And I know some who it is true for. It would depend enormously on each individuals situation, their case "shape", how close they lived to an AO, how educated in Scientology they were, how fast they ran in session, whether they had been on staff or not, whether they had done any co-auditing etc etc.

So to make a statement and then poo poo anyone who disagreed with it, when the statement is provably not accurate, is one of those things that gets up the nose of those who think accuracy is important when criticising Scientology.

I have said this time and again and directly to Infinite and his numerous posts of this nature. It's viewed as "entheta" and is counter productive.

Contrast this with a post from Veda, et al, that will correctly or accurately describe Scientology with out the ego bombast and "must be right" and you can audibly hear the lurkers "pop" off the fence.

There's enough things wrong with Scientology to accurately describe with zero embellishment necessary...also, the embellishment is never needed, nobody, lurker or otherwise, needs a sales job to exit Scientology, they are lurking because they already know something is wrong.

Also, it derails threads like a train wreck.

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Fair enough, Clammi. It is, as Emma said, more about critics being loose with the facts and thereby being easily dismissed by True Believers. Stick to the facts about scientology and it can't help but resonate with True Believers.

I've personally never met anyone who spent "hundreds of thousands" getting to OT3. You might know some different people who did but that really boggles my mind. I don't include the idiotic no-exchange donations-as-amends because these are an individual basis thing and anyone who bought into it needs their head read (there is specific Hubb-Policy against it being acceptable as amends for wrongdoing, as far as I can recall.)

There are plenty of members here who did OT3 in the CofS, I wonder if anyone spent that sort of money getting to the Xenu story. Anyone?

Meanwhile, back on thread; Fluffy are you receiving me about the original rationale behind the Upper Level/Confidential material thing?

 

[guanoloco]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

This is waaay off thread and I apologize up front, but, Panda, I saw this and had to post it:

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

If Infinite changed his wording to "many thousands of dollars" instead of "hundreds of thousands" would that still be a lie?

No, it would be the truth.

I assumed he meant to say 'hundreds of thousands to get to OT8' (which is true) and that he either forgot or just made a mistake when he said 'to get the Xenu story' because you get that at OT3.

I think the value of having intelligent and caring people here that were never in (but that occasionally get things wrong) outweighs any negatives because they look at scio so differently.

I love Infinites posts and often see inaccuracy's in the posts of people who were in for years, we are not in a Court here, we are just chatting, but I see Emma and Panda's point ... I do.

 

[clamicide]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Hey Clammy, no one was having a go at you. You were actually "in" Scientology and saw what you saw. I'm sure in many cases it would have cost millions to go OTIII - especially if you had the dough and the reges knew it.

I think the point here is that there are some who were never in Scientology, and did not experience anything first hand, who think they know better about "everything" than those who were actually in, and who discredit testimony that differs from their own *theoretical* knowledge.

Yeah...I understand. Like I said, I get myself tend to get pissed off at the Vistaril stuff...I did NOT think I took the stuff on this thread as a personal affront, but I guess ... wow, I'm human, and perhaps did. Well, !#$$, part of the wonderful part about being out, is realizing you can be an idiot without being a DB or having to 'cop' a liability or lower condition. Seriously, I do think I get your point. I think I reacted in the opposite direction as I was seriously shocked out of my gourd by finding folks who were never in the cult who actually understood and helped me as much as exes. Folks who were never in the cult actually have helped me in more ways than I ever thought possible, so I have a soft spot for them... perhaps I gave some leeway because of that experience; I've met those who have never been in who have given so much time and research into it, that have amazing insight...without some of the bias I know I bring from being fucked over by the bastards...

Now that I'm "out" I do get into trouble now and again because at times I kind of speak my mind, and yeah, turns out I'm sometimes wrong. I'm hoping to get to that point where I'm always up for sane criticism without wanting to defend myself, but I am human...I might bitch and moan a bit... I hope I can now realize if I've been an idiot on a point. Yeah...I'm really thinking I'm not that saintly...but, I can try!

 

[clamicide]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Fair enough, Clammi. It is, as Emma said, more about critics being loose with the facts and thereby being easily dismissed by True Believers. Stick to the facts about scientology and it can't help but resonate with True Believers.

I've personally never met anyone who spent "hundreds of thousands" getting to OT3. You might know some different people who did but that really boggles my mind. I don't include the idiotic no-exchange donations-as-amends because these are an individual basis thing and anyone who bought into it needs their head read (there is specific Hubb-Policy against it being acceptable as amends for wrongdoing, as far as I can recall.)

There are plenty of members here who did OT3 in the CofS, I wonder if anyone spent that sort of money getting to the Xenu story. Anyone?

Meanwhile, back on thread; Fluffy are you receiving me about the original rationale behind the Upper Level/Confidential material thing?

I'm still fighting this idiotic fever, so was still replying to Emma's post before this showed up, but, yeah...I did know folks who spent that dough. Maybe it was just the time... Eligibility got crazy...preps got crazy...and yeah...I need to go to bed. And it was always a fricking point of pride in the success stories I read...plus, everyone seemed to need the L's... but, then again, I lived in an area where people tended to have money, so, eh?

 

[Emma]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

One of the most liberating things about being "out" is that I can be wrong and nothing bad happens! I get no ethics condition or sec check or nothing! It's wonderful. I find "wogs" to be terribly forgiving.

I agree about "never ins" having a unique & important viewpoint. Thats why I didn't make this board exclusively for exes.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Hey Baldy!

One of the most liberating things about being "out" is that I can be wrong and nothing bad happens! I get no ethics condition or sec check or nothing! It's wonderful. I find "wogs" to be terribly forgiving.

I agree about "never ins" having a unique & important viewpoint. Thats why I didn't make this board exclusively for exes.

True that.

"Wigs" are terribly forgiving too (and by the look of your new avatar ... you might need one!).

 

[Emma]

Re: Hey Baldy!

True that.

"Wigs" are terribly forgiving too (and by the look of your new avatar ... you might need one!).

Are you calling me follically (sp?) challenged?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: Hey Baldy!

Are you calling me follically (sp?) challenged?

Yep (and cross eyed!).

 

[Outethicsofficer]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

I know what you mean Emma, the feeling of 'not giving and doing enough to help and save the planet' is no longer there. Also false information from Hubbard is dropping away.

Good thread.

James

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

If he did that, the he would be much closer to the truth as far as the cost goes.

That wouldn't, of course, automatically make the rest of the original sentence true. To me, that still amounts to speculation-presented-as-fact and is contrary to my personal experience. Until I see a valid scientific study from reputable sources proving said speculation, I still echo Blip's oft-repeated; "Dox or GTFO!"

I guess it's different for everyone ... I don't like huge generalisations but do think many thousands covers it.

 

[Veda]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

I occasionally receive price lists in the mail with Scientology promo. Recently, I received a pretty comprehensive price list. Unfortunately, I threw it in the garbage. Perhaps someone there has one and can correct my guesses. It seems that when someone goes the pc route and buys auditing, that auditing costs about 400 dollars an hour. So, 100 hours become around 40,000 dollars (correct me if these numbers are off), and the number of hours can add up. Not everyone has no-ethics problems, is not a resistive case, etc., and wants to, or can, train and then co-audit.

Following this discussion on this thread, the not unusual case of a fellow I spoke with a few years ago comes to mind. He was in a state of some distress. Here was his situation. He was in a bookstore and saw a copy of 'Dianetics, MSMH' and bought the book. He then read the book and how it was possible - with the book - to become "Clear." He also saw the list of Scientology orgs in the back of the book and eventually visited one. He was told that Dianetics is now much more advanced and that it would be best if he "went Clear" at the Org. This didn't seem unreasonable to him, since the book at times seemed confusing. He was given a figure of 10,000 dollars to get to "Clear." He said, OK. After all, "Clear" as described in 'DMSMH' was a pretty wonderful state, so why not?

So, he becomes a public pc and buys a bunch of auditing from a trained professional auditor. He's decided that he wants someone who knows what he's doing, as he's noticed that the subject seems to be becoming progressively more complicated the further involved he becomes, but he's still confident of making it to "Clear" for 10,000 dollars.

Enter his girlfriend/fiancee. He tells her what he's doing. She is not pleased. This gets back to the Org where he's being audited. Suddenly, he has a situation that needs to be handled. He's PTS. He's this and he's that. He doesn't want to disconnect from his wife to be, and feels he might be able to bring her around, so he perseveres. Now, it looks as though the 10,000 dollars he was going to need to make it to "Clear" will barely get him to "Grade 0 release."

Finally, after having spent about 20,000 dollars in Scientology, much of it having to do with his situation with his "anti-Scientology" girlfriend, he gives up.

20,000 dollars gone and he hadn't even made it to "Grade 0."

From what I've observed, this sort of thing is not unusual.

And what would it have cost if someone such as this had persevered? Through all the review actions, the handlings, the rundowns including the False Purpose Rundown, the Lower Grades, then Dianetics, and if no "Clear" on Dianetics, PP, R6ew, CC, then OT preps, then through to OT 3?

I'm not sure what the amount would have been, but it would have been a substantial amount of money.

 

[Atalantan]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Snipped ...









Hmmm, well I think (apart from generational scientologists) that we were all as daft as brushes for getting involved with Tubs and his cult, but it's just a word Atalantan and if the most able people on the planet with the highest confront on evil can't cope with it, well ... they are being a bit daft and soppy really aren't they, maybe they just need to get a grip.

People will either join ESMB or they won't, I'm more interested in people not getting sucked in in the first place.

The prices are all over the shop and always have been and it really depends upon how a person presents themselves IMO as to how much they get CS'd for and how adriot they are at stepping through the minefield, lets not pretend there is any science or logic involved (Terril was very clever attesting to natural clear as were many others who probably couldn't face the endless auditing it would have taken to go the normal route).

Whatever a person paid was too much, because we all know that clear and OT doesn't exist except perhaps in the few fragile minds that can't confront the truth.

What you mean "we" all know there aren't any Clears, Kemosabe? I don't know any such thing.

I met plenty of Clears in the early1970s. They thought they were clear, and being around them and observing them, I thought they were clear.

However, I seriously believe the CoS has produced few, if any Clears in the last 20 years.

 

[Atalantan]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Regarding discussion of OT-3 on your board, I understand the purpose now after reading one of Panda's posts here. With "safe space" in mind, I would have to say discussion of Hubbard's dark side would be right up there with the OT-3 thing. So talk of Hubbard would need a red flag, too.


:confused2:

Ho ho ho, ha ha ha, considering Alanzo was one of the major posters there....

 

[Atalantan]

Re: Adventures with scnforum.org-- I really would like to get some feedback from you

Then, of course, there is always the mostest cheap route; one could always ... ... join staff ... and get their HGC auditing discounted 50%, or train and co-audit for free. Either 5 year contracts at the appropriate classed orgs ... or ... or ... join the S.O. and not have to fool with all that moving around and stuff! Wa-hoo!

Staff enhancement time? What staff enhancement time?

Freeloader's debt? What freeloader's debt?

I think it's cheaper to just go hang yourself than to join staff. That would 'exteriorize' you in a manner of speaking. Joining staff would be my first choice as the most expensive and prolonged way to personal oblivion. Kinda like a years-long death of a thousand cuts.