Advice on handling those still "in"

c-orgy

Patron with Honors
Help!! My lesbian lover and I have a question. People in Scientology know that I am out of the church and that the church is telling people not to speak to and has told some that they must disconnect.
Question: What do I say to those who are still in, who refuse to disconnect, when I run into them and they say, "Great news! So-and-so's child has just joined the SO! or So-and-so is has just become a patron meritorious super del grande of the 5th order with a level 3 cloak of dark power spell!
Right now, I smile and say, "Great!" even though I am throwing up on the inside. Any advice on how to handle them without causing an ARC X? or maybe help to plant or cultivate their seeds of doubt without totally breaking the comm line?
Or is it better to just have the inevitable ARC X and get it over with? For business reasons I may be in a situation where I have to work with some of these people again. (not "work for" them, but work alongside them)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I would suggest simply humouring them like one does with any other "nutter" that one still has to maintain social relations with.

All you have to change is your consideration about it. Look on them like a 5 year old child or a nutcase, but try not to let that come across in your responses. :). Eventually, maybe when you're 65, you can be infinitely tolerant about it and genuinely not mind at all, but let's be real here.

Paul
 

Mest Lover

Not Sea Org Qualified
Geez, I say don't hide your feelings, they sure don't.

Tell them exactly what you feel about SCN, their decissions and blatantly point out how you feel.

I was so into hiding, now I understand the need to be just as unopen minded about your feelings and spelling out the truth for those that are being blinded currently. I feel they will better understand you later.

If they wish to apply the so called canceled disconnection policy that is their issue, not yours!
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I've never had a problem dealing with Scientologists or even ex-Scientologists unless they insisted on talking about Scientology.

Or stalking under my windows...

Zinj
 

TR'SIN

Patron with Honors
. . . For business reasons I may be in a situation where I have to work with some of these people again. (not "work for" them, but work alongside them)

I have similar thoughts to Zinj - "for business reasons" be polite and mannerly. You must not have any labels attatched to you by CofS, so your communication should be freely given or withheld based on your true feelings.

For example; we have a lady in our building, who loves to tell people how she views their "auras". She is basically harmless and I don't encourage her, nor do I discourage her. I am kind and polite and excuse myself in the most clever and imaginative ways. :whistling:

I would do the same if she was a Scn and wanted to talk about the weather or attending services at the local Org. NO harm - no foul. :yes:
 

Carmel

Crusader
Help!! My lesbian lover and I have a question. People in Scientology know that I am out of the church and that the church is telling people not to speak to and has told some that they must disconnect.
Question: What do I say to those who are still in, who refuse to disconnect, when I run into them and they say, "Great news! So-and-so's child has just joined the SO! or So-and-so is has just become a patron meritorious super del grande of the 5th order with a level 3 cloak of dark power spell!
Right now, I smile and say, "Great!" even though I am throwing up on the inside. Any advice on how to handle them without causing an ARC X? or maybe help to plant or cultivate their seeds of doubt without totally breaking the comm line?
Or is it better to just have the inevitable ARC X and get it over with? For business reasons I may be in a situation where I have to work with some of these people again. (not "work for" them, but work alongside them)
Let them know that you're not with the Scn gig anymore, and direct them to looking at the reason why.

If you're concerned about them having an "ARC X" with ya.......Any "ARC X" over truth you speak would be nothing in comparison to one they might have with ya down the track, when they realised that ya didn't share with them what you knew.

Besides, a potential or even probable "ARC X" wouldn't be good reason to say nothing of the truth, when those you come in contact with, would/could avoid so much further harm coz ya told it.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Instead of saying "Great!" say sadly, "What a shame/waste!".
They'll know exactly what you mean and probably won't ARC Break.
(They may, however, start telling you about their ARC Breaks.)
 

c-orgy

Patron with Honors
Thanks for all the advice. I like 'Wow, what a waste.' Gets my opinion of the mess out there without creating too much of a scene by giving it much significance.
 

Sign of Success

Patron with Honors
c-orgy, just say to them: "i respect you being a Scientologist as long you respect me
being .....(whatever you like to call yourself).
That will not going create any unjustified antagonism and both of you will go just fine.
You don't need to "handle" them for what they are just like they don't need to handle for what you are.
The key word here is RESPECT.
Don't invalidate them or treat them like children and/or laughing about them.
Do not treat them like you don't want to be treated, and everything you feel needing
handling, will disappear.
I hope I gave you a good and practical advice.
Good luck.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
c-orgy, just say to them: "i respect you being a Scientologist as long you respect me
being .....(whatever you like to call yourself).
That will not going create any unjustified antagonism and both of you will go just fine.
You don't need to "handle" them for what they are just like they don't need to handle for what you are.
The key word here is RESPECT.
Don't invalidate them or treat them like children and/or laughing about them.
Do not treat them like you don't want to be treated, and everything you feel needing
handling, will disappear.
I hope I gave you a good and practical advice.
Good luck.

Yeah, i kinda see your point. But....

...when David Miscavige invalidates and beats Scientologists and treats them like children and laughs at them when they suffer under his cruelty, which policy is that again?
 

Dark Phoenix

Patron Meritorious
Hope all goes well, c-orgy. There's some really good advice here.

I just want to add that I do not believe that verbal disagreement, even if vociferous, necessarily constitutes a sign of disrespect. A disagreement may, of course, be expressed disrespectfully, but a civilly expressed disagreement is not itself a sign of disrespect. On the contrary, it seems to me that not allowing civil verbal disagreement is itself disrespectful.

All the best.:)
 

This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
My new angle on this

Next week is dinner with friends.

My plan:

"Look, you know I have some concerns about Scientology :)whistling:). I want to tell you what they are RIGHT NOW. I'm asking you RIGHT NOW to give me 4 hours of your time RIGHT NOW to show you some stuff :)omg:) you need to learn about.

"You may want to kick me out of your house RIGHT NOW and if you do, I'll understand and later on if you feel embarassed over kicking me out and disconnecting from me, that's OK too - I'll understand and we'll carry on like it never happened, BUT I'm not going to make it totally easy on you because we're going to talk about this stuff RIGHT NOW, so buckle your seat belt!

"The worst thing that could come of this is that you write a report on me and go down to the org and the DSA (OSA) person there can listen to you tell them what I said and they can show you some LRH references and stuff from KSW and PTS tech and third party me personally and write at least a non-enturb order on me. All it's going to cost YOU is a study cycle in ethics and perhaps a day of cramming.

"I've been your friend for 15 years and I deserve your attention this once. I'm going to tell you some stuff RIGHT NOW - .

"So here goes....."

NOTE: I used to be a reg, so why not get HARD FUCKING SELL RIGHT NOW? I did it on a daily basis on staff for DECADES so why not use these skills on these dear people?

P.S. In case you didn't notice, the continous use of a phrase like "RIGHT NOW" is an old reg tool to "ding-in" a command - a call to action now - that is probably highly hypnotic, and is highly successful. There's LRH "tech" on it. If you look back at some reg cycles you were in, this tool was used and you WERE convinced to act NOW (with you wallet, your time, your life).

Give me your comments now and I'll give you my results later.

Regards,

Me, "The Reverse FSM"

P.P.S. And don't anyone try to steal that name - it's MINE -ALL MINE. ah...Rosebud.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
OP: I say tell them the truth, that you are out of the Church and you think the Sea Org is a harmful place. If you can get your reason for leaving down to one sentence (ie "I realized that the tech simply didn't work, and the problem wasn't me, it was the tech,") you might get that much in before they shut you down.

That said, you know where this will lead: ARC break and disconnection and possible problems with business relationships. But if you feel the Church is wrong, you will at least know that you stood up for what you believe.

I guess it's a choice, keep your friends or keep your integrity.

Not an easy choice, but good for you for at least considering the options, and congrats on getting out!

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com
 
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GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
different approaches for different folk

Next week is dinner with friends.

My plan:

"Look, you know I have some concerns about Scientology :)whistling:). I want to tell you what they are RIGHT NOW. I'm asking you RIGHT NOW to give me 4 hours of your time RIGHT NOW to show you some stuff :)omg:) you need to learn about.

"You may want to kick me out of your house RIGHT NOW and if you do, I'll understand and later on if you feel embarassed over kicking me out and disconnecting from me, that's OK too - I'll understand and we'll carry on like it never happened, BUT I'm not going to make it totally easy on you because we're going to talk about this stuff RIGHT NOW, so buckle your seat belt!

"The worst thing that could come of this is that you write a report on me and go down to the org and the DSA (OSA) person there can listen to you tell them what I said and they can show you some LRH references and stuff from KSW and PTS tech and third party me personally and write at least a non-enturb order on me. All it's going to cost YOU is a study cycle in ethics and perhaps a day of cramming.

"I've been your friend for 15 years and I deserve your attention this once. I'm going to tell you some stuff RIGHT NOW - .

"So here goes....."

NOTE: I used to be a reg, so why not get HARD FUCKING SELL RIGHT NOW? I did it on a daily basis on staff for DECADES so why not use these skills on these dear people?

P.S. In case you didn't notice, the continous use of a phrase like "RIGHT NOW" is an old reg tool to "ding-in" a command - a call to action now - that is probably highly hypnotic, and is highly successful. There's LRH "tech" on it. If you look back at some reg cycles you were in, this tool was used and you WERE convinced to act NOW (with you wallet, your time, your life).

Give me your comments now and I'll give you my results later.

Regards,

Me, "The Reverse FSM"

P.P.S. And don't anyone try to steal that name - it's MINE -ALL MINE. ah...Rosebud.


No approach works all the time everytime. I did sales for years, not redging, but sales ... life insurance, photo album/enlarging photography packages, and over the phone ... teflon tape, tools, office supplies, advertising specialties, travel promotions, and investment grade colored gems. Oh, my final hurrah with sales, health club memberships. It was a different approach for all of these things. The only common denominator is that you have to be making your presentation to a qualified buyer, and, even if your prospective buyers are truely qualified, and even if your presentation if flawless, the only guarantee is that you will not have a closing ratio that is less than 100%. The best salesmen may close 80%. In reverse redging, or de FSM'ing, you are attempting to sell an idea that directly contradicts what the Scientologist still in has been sold on for years and has agreed to. It could be a hard sell to try to directly overcome all of that.

One technique used in selling is to get the prospective buyer to answer his own questions, overcome his own objections, and have things come out of his own mouth that convince him to buy, because he "knows" he is telling the truth. Along those lines, some questions to ask of the current Scientologist might be "Do we have to agree on everything 100% in order to remain friends?" Once you establish that it is OK not to agree on everything, you may proceed with other questions, like "Under what circumstances would it NOT be OK with your own personal integrity to continue with Cof$? You can then go on to other issues that may be his "button" issues.

The hard line is OK with some sales, but not everything. When selling travel promo's and ad specs via promo on the phone, the idea was never answer an objection, but rather feed the prospective buyer the objection you had an answer for. This worked great selling a 300 dollar promotional package built around a "free" trip to Hawaii for a week (one airfare and hotel accommodations for two for a week, that was redeemed via the purchase of a single round trip airfare that the buyer would get royally porked for) but such an approach would simply not work for selling a 300 million dollar package of jet passenger aircraft.

One great technique if you have access ... induce the Scientologist to take a day off from course, preferably a day of nice weather, and take him outside to a recreational area to do something that he doesn't get to do at all for lack of time and money due to Scientology ... for instance, if you own a power boat or have a friend that does, to take the guy out onto a lake and just go fishing for a day. Have another friend, a non Scientologist, and get into a discussion about buying boats, buying investments, buying the good things in life, and do so matter of factly because you have finances and can take a day off. This will actually go a lot further than you may think in derailing a Scilon off the "bridge".

Pete
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
One great technique if you have access ... induce the Scientologist to take a day off from course, preferably a day of nice weather, and take him outside to a recreational area to do something that he doesn't get to do at all for lack of time and money due to Scientology ... for instance, if you own a power boat or have a friend that does, to take the guy out onto a lake and just go fishing for a day. Have another friend, a non Scientologist, and get into a discussion about buying boats, buying investments, buying the good things in life, and do so matter of factly because you have finances and can take a day off. This will actually go a lot further than you may think in derailing a Scilon off the "bridge".

Pete

That sounds like a good option to me. This is one reason why it is so hard for SO members to get a week or two off — they tend to discover how nice the alternatives of a normal life are and either don't want to come back or get more interested in leaving!

I can't say I like the idea of the hard sell approach at all. You are trying to sell an idea, not a pair of shoes. Buyer's remorse where it is too late to back out of the sale doesn't figure into it at all.

However, TINOK !!!!, it's your life. Do whatever you think is right.

Paul
 

c-orgy

Patron with Honors
Signs of Success...are you out there?

Mutual respect would be great. That is all I have ever wanted from this so-called "church". Lets make this clear: I respect their beliefs.
The problem is they have and are calling in friends and demanding that they disconnect from me or face ostracism by their church. It is manipulative and evil. This practice is despicable. It is a gross violation of the human rights and freedoms guaranteed in the US Constitution and the Declaration of Human Rights that the church so vehemently says it supports. I will use the tired comparison: This is exactly what the Nazis did in pre-war Germany. "Mr. Schwarz, you might not want to buy things or associate with the Finkelbaums because, you know- they are (fill in the blank-Jews, political dissenters, homosexuals) and if you do associate with them, there will be consequences." Do you not see that? On a human level, doesn't it just "not make sense"? Here is where you have been brainwashed, SoS. Even though it does not seem right and you know it isnt making sense, you "use the tech" to make it make sense. Please clear the term "Cognitive dissonance" and the concept "Dr. Robert J. Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought reform". This is alot to ask, I know, to just for a moment, set aside the knee-jerk reaction of "applying the tech" and approach this from a fresh point-of-view to evaluate the data. Awaiting your reply.
 

Sign of Success

Patron with Honors
Mutual respect would be great. That is all I have ever wanted from this so-called "church". Lets make this clear: I respect their beliefs.
The problem is they have and are calling in friends and demanding that they disconnect from me or face ostracism by their church. It is manipulative and evil. This practice is despicable. It is a gross violation of the human rights and freedoms guaranteed in the US Constitution and the Declaration of Human Rights that the church so vehemently says it supports. I will use the tired comparison: This is exactly what the Nazis did in pre-war Germany. "Mr. Schwarz, you might not want to buy things or associate with the Finkelbaums because, you know- they are (fill in the blank-Jews, political dissenters, homosexuals) and if you do associate with them, there will be consequences." Do you not see that? On a human level, doesn't it just "not make sense"? Here is where you have been brainwashed, SoS. Even though it does not seem right and you know it isnt making sense, you "use the tech" to make it make sense. Please clear the term "Cognitive dissonance" and the concept "Dr. Robert J. Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought reform". This is alot to ask, I know, to just for a moment, set aside the knee-jerk reaction of "applying the tech" and approach this from a fresh point-of-view to evaluate the data. Awaiting your reply.

Well. I colored the phrase you wrote above just to point out that you don't seem to give a shit about "mutual respect", like you are implying.

Talking about human rights, LOL, you should know that is a right to divorce or cut any communications with someone you don't wish to communicate with
anymore.
"disconnection" in SCN doesn't violate any human rights, it actually expand them!
If your friends don't wish to talk with you anymore, well look yourself in a mirror and ask to the image you see in it, this question; "why?"

BTW, I don't believe in "Cognitive dissonance" theory. To me it's like
a way to motivate or justify one owns overts.

I thought that my friendly and gentle comment at your thread question,
could have been useful to you.
Well, I'm right now thinking that you created your thread for other motives.
After all we are in a virtual "environment' well known to be formed for.:omg:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
So my suggestion would be to figure out what they are most likely to object to in Scn as currently practiced within the CofS and work on those points they're most likely to agree on.

For example, are they tired of constantly being regged for donations? Show them the "Solve it With Scientology" policy (aka Urgent Org Programming).

If they care about the tech being unaltered, show them altered tech.

Etc.
 
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