All previously interned Scientology Auditors have to do the GAT II Internship

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Well, the Clear numbering system topic is soooo 15 pages ago.
But, I still have my cert. Possibly because it was so "priceless".

I guess I was lucky to get in on the pimped out shiny blue foil lettering era.
I wonder if they still have that?
Most certs seem to be flat black these days.

I wonder if anyone else has one near that date and what the number would be?
View attachment 11148

I haven't got one near that date, but here's mine anyway, a 'temporary' one from AOUK looking a bit worse for wear. They never saw fit to issue me with a permanent one. Incidentally, you've blanked out your name, but wouldn't someone be able to use your number as a reference and discover your real name Victoria?

Actually, since I've only blanked out one digit of mine I should be easy to identify, but it was over 40 years ago and their record-keeping is probably so chaotic I doubt that somehow.

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clearcert.jpg
 

Terril park

Sponsor
They are page links. Quote #2 was regarding your claim of somatics gone.

Why put this into a supernatural claim? Its a well known if difficult area in
medical/ psychological arenas, and an area you are well grounded in.

http://patient.info/health/psychosomatic-disorders

How can the mind affect physical diseases?
It is well known that the mind can cause physical symptoms. For example, when we are afraid or anxious we may develop:

A fast heart rate
A thumping heart (palpitations)
Feeling sick (nauseated)
Shaking (tremor)
Sweating
Dry mouth
Chest pain
Headaches
A knot in the stomach
Fast breathing

http://patient.info/health/somatisationsomatoform-disorders

What is the treatment for somatoform disorders?
Treatment is often difficult, as people with somatisation disorders commonly do not accept that their symptoms are due to mental (psychological) factors. They may become angry with their doctors who cannot find the cause for their symptoms. Another difficulty is that people with somatisation disorder, like everyone else, will develop physical diseases at some point. So, every new symptom is a challenge to a doctor to know how far to investigate.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
CS, there are plenty of things people don't like to experience. Pain, stress, conflict, emotional upsets.

I don't doubt for a minute that your stomach ache was resolved.

The thing is, just about any garden-variety method from talking to a friend about your stress to even the online tools for stress or relationship resolution would have probably accomplished the same thing, without all the PTS/SP re-education and misdirectors.

Illness is not caused by PTSness. PTSness does not exist, but we can convince people it does. It's close in some ways, but oversimplified and impersonal. We are individuals, we have huge variations of conditions, abilities, weaknesses and strengths, education, environments and genetics. Did you become the effect of stress in your life in some area? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, there is no cookie-cutter answer for everyone. The long-term results of PTS/SP education are pretty disastrous.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Can I answer that last question instead of Terril?

As I've said before here, I had a very painful stomach condition more or less evaporate instantly on an introductory PTS/SP course I took at the local Class V org (the Ups and Downs course). I'd have to know, or at least have some idea, as to how that could have happened if it wasn't as a result of the course and in particular the audited list on a meter that I did at the end of it.


Terril can still answer for himself ... and I hope he does.

Regarding your stomach condition evaporating Cats ... with such scant info I wouldn't want to try and suggest why or how it dissipated but I do know that these things happen all the time and coincidence often plays a big part. The very act of being "made right'' (for want of a better term) via the audited list could have done wonders for you as an instant stress release which could certainly have affected your stomach issue in a positive way ... that can also happen when just chatting with a caring friend.

I realise the course may have helped you enormously but you were a member of a cult (cofs or freezone) at the time and as one you were already conditioned to expect results and to talk everything up and apparently still choose to do so for your own reasons, it's a positive mindset and I can't and wouldn't condemn that in isolation, but as part of the cult con I certainly can and do look at it with a critical eye.

Anyway, none of the above in any way makes scientology a valid or a reliable form of therapy (not that it wants to be viewed as therapy, because being a "religion" is far more profitable) ... and the horror stories well outweigh the "success stories".

Just a few quick thoughts but I am glad your issue was fixed regardless of how it happened.

:yes:
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
CS, there are plenty of things people don't like to experience. Pain, stress, conflict, emotional upsets.

I don't doubt for a minute that your stomach ache was resolved.

The thing is, just about any garden-variety method from talking to a friend about your stress to even the online tools for stress or relationship resolution would have probably accomplished the same thing, without all the PTS/SP re-education and misdirectors.

Illness is not caused by PTSness. PTSness does not exist, but we can convince people it does. It's close in some ways, but oversimplified and impersonal. We are individuals, we have huge variations of conditions, abilities, weaknesses and strengths, education, environments and genetics. Did you become the effect of stress in your life in some area? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, there is no cookie-cutter answer for everyone. The long-term results of PTS/SP education are pretty disastrous.

I agree with a lot of this above.

You could look at my stomach problem in other ways. According to the medical profession, I had something called hyperchlorhydria (translated; too much stomach acid), and according to astrology I have Mars (which is associated with fever, accidents, trauma, pain and surgery), in my birth chart square (in other words, in a difficult aspect) to the Moon (which governs the stomach).

On that day, though, it was as though a key was turned and something resolved on a metaphysical (if people don't like the word "spiritual") level and things got better after that, with my stomach at least.
 
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Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Terril can still answer for himself ... and I hope he does.

Regarding your stomach condition evaporating Cats ... with such scant info I wouldn't want to try and suggest why or how it dissipated but I do know that these things happen all the time and coincidence often plays a big part. The very act of being "made right'' (for want of a better term) via the audited list could have done wonders for you as an instant stress release which could certainly have affected your stomach issue in a positive way ... that can happen when just chatting with a caring friend.

I realise the course may have helped you enormously but you were a member of a cult (cofs or freezone) at the time and as one you were already conditioned to expect results and to talk everything up and apparently still choose to do so for your own reasons, it's a positive mindset and I can't and wouldn't condemn that in isolation, as part of the cult con I certainly can and do look at it with a critical eye.

Anyway, none of the above in anyway makes scientology a valid or a reliable form of therapy (not that it wants to be viewed as therapy, because being a "religion" is more profitable) ... and the horror stories well outweigh the "success stories".

Just a few quick thoughts but I am glad your issue was fixed regardless of how it happened.

:yes:

Just on this bit I bolded;

No I wasn't Trouble, I was amazed at the time that this happened. I wasn't expecting it at all.

I had been going to spiritual healing evenings at my local spiritualist church for the previous two years, and although it helped, it relieved the pain a bit and enabled me to live with the condition better rather than curing or resolving the issue, and that despite the fact that I was very positive about the church and wanted the healing to work.

I don't feel any particular wish to "talk anything up" (in fact quite the reverse - I have nothing to gain from that at all), but I do want to be as honest as I can be in recounting my own experiences and deciding what conclusions can be drawn from them.
 
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uncover

Gold Meritorious Patron
I haven't got one near that date, but here's mine anyway, a 'temporary' one from AOUK looking a bit worse for wear. They never saw fit to issue me with a permanent one. Incidentally, you've blanked out your name, but wouldn't someone be able to use your number as a reference and discover your real name Victoria?

Actually, since I've only blanked out one digit of mine I should be easy to identify, but it was over 40 years ago and their record-keeping is probably so chaotic I doubt that somehow.

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View attachment 11151

Hmmmm..... I don´t know why, but it appears to me, that your Co$-status has been damaged a little bit, lately...:coolwink:
 

JustSheila

Crusader
You know what I'd love to see you post? Everyday, garden variety happy moments that you have now from interacting with people and things around you. Things you do because you are you, things you can take credit for without feeling a need to acknowledge or thank Scientology or L Ron Hubbard in any way.

I'd really enjoy that and it would make me smile.

You haven't answered this, Terril. Nor have you tried to post these sort of things.

It would sadden me to believe that you are incapable of seeing the world through anything but the Scientology blinders, the Scientology lens for viewing the world and interpreting it, and that you have lost the ability to communicate in a normal fashion and relate to people and life in a normal way. Unfortunately, it does happen when people are in Scientology too long and get older and less capable of taking on different forms of thought. They get stuck in certain patterns of thinking. It may take an effort, but I hope you can still sometimes think outside the Scientology mindset.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Just on this bit I bolded;

No I wasn't Trouble, I was amazed at the time that this happened. I wasn't expecting it at all.

I had been going to spiritual healing evenings at my local spiritualist church for the precious two years, and although it helped it enabled me to live with the condition better rather than curing or resolving the issue, and that despite the fact that I was very positive about the church and wanted the healing to work.

I don't feel any particular wish to talk anything up (in fact quite the reverse - I have nothing to gain from that at all), but I do want to be as honest as I can be in recounting my own experiences and the conclusions which can be drawn from them.



I'm not trying to pour cold water on your experiences but in all honesty none of what you have said makes any difference to how I feel about the cult (cofs or freezone) ... some of the tech does get good results (of course it does) but so what? Walking in fresh air and stroking beloved pets gets good results, apparently it lowers blood pressure ... whereas even thinking about being anywhere near scientologists again sends it sky high. I can explain that experience and the conclusions which can be drawn from it if you're interested (lol).

:biggrin:
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron


I'm not trying to pour cold water on your experiences but in all honesty none of what you have said makes any difference to how I feel about the cult (cofs or freezone) ... some of the tech does get good results (of course it does) but so what? Walking in fresh air and stroking beloved pets gets good results, apparently it lowers blood pressure ... whereas even thinking about being anywhere near scientologists again sends it sky high. I can explain that experience and the conclusions which can be drawn from it if you're interested (lol).

:biggrin:

Of course I'd be interested Trouble. The only problem is, when people have done that before on here I've looked at what they said, thought for a moment and then said to myself; "No, that wasn't it". I can't promise that any effort you might make would have any other result.

My overall position now is closer to Sindy's as well as I can understand it. It is this;

Yes, good things did happen as a result of the Tech but;

a / they weren't predictable,

b / they weren't worth all the downsides of being part of the CofS and Scientology (though in my case it was certainly great to not have stomach pain again), and

c / the good things that happened were a major part of the problem in that they bound people more tightly to the organisation and the Tech, hoping for a pot of gold at the end of the Scn rainbow that never seemed to materialise.
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
CS, there's probably few, if any exScns who aren't familiar with that "Whoopee!" feeling of "That's why!" and having a realisation of some sort at some time during some Scn activity. To share that with someone and have it acknowledged when it happens at the moment it happens and then to have it put in concrete with Success Stories and the like make it pretty enjoyable, even addictive at times.

As time goes by, we WOULD normally put these things in perspective with other experiences, good and bad, but the Scn group skewers that perspective by always, continually, bringing those "wins" front and forward and pushing the negatives, or the boring hours, or the disagreements, or the frustrations, or ours and our friends' or families' painful experiences due to Scn, or the mediocre times, aside. The "Whoopee!"s are kept fresh in the memory, and people like Terril ensure they are, and the rest is pushed down, down in the memory to be forgotten.

But as Trouble points out, we have those Whoopees all the time IRL. They're so much better when there's someone else right there to share them, though.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree Sheila, and for me that's one of the main reasons I continue to post here - to gain some perspective on the five years of my life spent (initially) in the CofS and then in the Freezone.

One thing I've learnt about "Whoopee!" moments (great phrase btw) is that they rarely happen when I'm looking for them. "A watched pot never boils." I've had the experience of reading threads, not just here but elsewhere on other boards as well, and suddenly I'll start feeling great for no obvious reason. Something has shifted, my mind is self-healing, call it what you will.

The trouble is for me those moments are quite rare; they don't seem to be for you, from what I've read of your posts here. Maybe you're a lot further along on your journey than I am or something.
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
Thanks, Cat. :bighug: Those moments are rare and precious to me, too. Most of what I write here is just what I think about things or my personal experiences. Nobody can be ahead of anyone else when we are all blazing our own individual trails. The journey, IMHO, is just as important, or more so, than the destination.

Gotta run. :wave:
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I agree with a lot of this above.

You could look at my stomach problem in other ways. According to the medical profession, I had something called hyperchlorhydria (translated; too much stomach acid), and according to astrology I have Mars (which is associated with fever, accidents, trauma, pain and surgery), in my birth chart square (in other words, in a difficult aspect) to the Moon (which governs the stomach).

On that day, though, it was as though a key was turned and something resolved on a metaphysical (if people don't like the word "spiritual") level and things got better after that, with my stomach at least.

Has it ever occurred to you that you could have asked a good, qualified medical doctor for some decent diet tips, or, if push comes to shove, ask for some chemical "acid-reducers"? I don't know how much visiting a doctor would cost you, but taking the correct medicine probably won't cost more that 5 bucks per month.

I won't even discuss the benefits of keeping ones sanity intact, which any Hubbardian practice surely never will do.

Ghee, when I'm on high-dosed cortisone and forget my stomach protectors, I vomit blood and acid all day. :puke2:
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Has it ever occurred to you that you could have asked a good, qualified medical doctor for some decent diet tips, or, if push comes to shove, ask for some chemical "acid-reducers"? I don't know how much visiting a doctor would cost you, but taking the correct medicine probably won't cost more that 5 bucks per month.

I won't even discuss the benefits of keeping ones sanity intact, which any Hubbardian practice surely never will do.

Ghee, when I'm on high-dosed cortisone and forget my stomach protectors, I vomit blood and acid all day. :puke2:

Sure. I was on Taganet and then Gastrozepin for four of the five years, and before that, some muck in a bottle, possibly bismuth based, whose name I can't remember. Still got the attacks (though maybe fewer than if I hadn't been taking anything).

In the UK we have what is valled a National Health Service, so we get our healthcare free at the point of access and paid for through our taxes, so it didn;t cost me anything. There's a standard charge for prescriptions though, of about £8.25, though this can be reduced or even eliminated depending on one's financial circumstances.

As for diet tips; the best one I had was from my spiritualist church and was to eat cauliflower and broccoli and then drink the water it was cooked in. I still do that.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
You haven't answered this, Terril. Nor have you tried to post these sort of things.

It would sadden me to believe that you are incapable of seeing the world through anything but the Scientology blinders, the Scientology lens for viewing the world and interpreting it, and that you have lost the ability to communicate in a normal fashion and relate to people and life in a normal way. Unfortunately, it does happen when people are in Scientology too long and get older and less capable of taking on different forms of thought. They get stuck in certain patterns of thinking. It may take an effort, but I hope you can still sometimes think outside the Scientology mindset.

First thing is that I'm not a prolific poster. In fact I have posted some of these things,
about cars about a couple of sexual adventure/misadventures and various short posts
hopefully of a humorous nature. Posts about music quite a bit.

There is little of critical info re Scn that I've not read intensely or at least in part.
Tony O and Mike Rinder's blogs every day etc.

However despite agreeing with almost all criticism I find auditing worthwhile, and
know very many who also do. However I wouldn't trust CO$ to even try for
best reults for clients.

So my viewpoint is quite different in this regard from almost all here. This dosn't
mean abnormality or an inability to communicate.

Its also different to the more KSW following milestone 2 people.

I have friends who love doing nots despite doing it for anything up to 16 years.

I have zero interest in doing any more levels dealing with BTs so I'm still an
OT 3 and one with no prospects of ever doing OT4-7/8. I have always had zero
interest in any repairs or set ups.

I've never really been interested in supernatural abilities, my interest in SCN
developed primarily because I have a love and respect for knowledge. I also
respect your willingness to look for further knowledge. One of my friends is similar,
a deeply spiritual person she studied Psychology so as to be qualified to deliver
auditing but instead became a psychologist.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
<snip>

As for diet tips; the best one I had was from my spiritualist church and was to eat cauliflower and broccoli and then drink the water it was cooked in. I still do that.

Does the water taste good? Here's an IMO better recipe: Boil the broccoli in mild salt water, add 1 cup of heavy cream and a few crumbs of (I believe it's called) nutmeg, put a hand-held blender in for a minute or two and Bingo! A fine broccoli-cream soup to die for.

I never tried cauliflower, AFAIK.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Actually, since I've only blanked out one digit of mine I should be easy to identify, but it was over 40 years ago and their record-keeping is probably so chaotic I doubt that somehow.

No. At the time it would have been recorded exactly and kept securely.

There were hard-cover logbooks kept in the Certs & Awards filing cabinet in Qual at Saint Hill which recorded such names and numbers, going back to Number 1 (John McMaster). The books were for OT Levels as well as Clears; there was only one book for Clears. Prior to the 1978 Dianetic Clear explosion it was a very orderly affair: initially there was only one place that Clears got "made," so it was easy to keep track of the names. In the 70s there were only a few AOs. What would happen was that someone in SH Qual (Certs & Awards or HFA) would allocate a run of, say, the next ten blank consecutive numbers to AOLA. AOLA would telex back the names/numbers to put in the log book, and the SH C&A person would write them in. When they were close to running out of their allocation, they would get another bunch. Similarly for AOSHEU and later on AOSH ANZO. It could happen that Clear 4887 would get "made" in LA before Clear 4874 got "made" in Copenhagen, but it was no big deal really.

I examined this book many times, by the way, so I speak from personal observation.

After the late 70s, when the numbers shot up dramatically, it all went to hell and gone. To start with it was only the same AOs that could "make" Clears, but the allocations of spaces were in the hundreds, and the names/numbers logging got backlogged. And then some regular Class IV orgs were able to "make" Clears. And with the DCSI/CCRD screw-ups, people were getting undeclared. So what should happen when Joe Schmoe, Clear 21386, gets undeclared Clear? Does the number 21386 get vacated so that someone else can be assigned it (after it was published in the Auditor mag)? Does it get "suspended" until Joe Schmoe gets "properly" Cleared a month or decade later? There's no good answer to that question.

When I was at ITO, around 1990 a friend there got sent on a Mission to sort out (ho ho) the dog's breakfast that the Clear numbers tally had become. They collected up all the records from the AOs and tried to make sense of it all. Mission fail.

So that's the story of why they stopped that grand tally after 30,000 or whatever it was.

Paul
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Does the water taste good? Here's an IMO better recipe: Boil the broccoli in mild salt water, add 1 cup of heavy cream and a few crumbs of (I believe it's called) nutmeg, put a hand-held blender in for a minute or two and Bingo! A fine broccoli-cream soup to die for.

I never tried cauliflower, AFAIK.

Thanks for the recipe Mr N, yes the water does taste good.

In case you're not familiar with it, cauliflower is called "Blumenkohl" in German (I've just looked it up). It's a white vegetable with green leaves at the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauliflower
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Thanks for the recipe Mr N, yes the water does taste good.

In case you're not familiar with it, cauliflower is called "Blumenkohl" in German (I've just looked it up). It's a white vegetable with green leaves at the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauliflower

Oh, Blumenkohl! Of course I know Blumenkohl. Jokingly called Fart-o-line. :biggrin: Need recipes for that one? Because I could deliver some good ones, just not today - my physio-therapist has already sucked me dry. :coolwink:
 
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