Am I evil for even thinking this?

[Royal Prince Xenu]

You are not evil.

The trust idea is good in principle, but easy to get around. Being an "ex-financial genius" myself, here is how you get the cash right away:

Say I want to get $50K of her money before 2pm thursday. I call a wealthy Scilon and brief them on the sit. I get the sisters agreement to do the cycle for $50K. I introduce the wealth Scilon to your sister and they- independently of me (even though I set it all up)- decide that the wealthy Scilon will lend the sister $50K (which she gives to the org), and she will pay back the said wealthy Scilon at say, oh I dont know, maybe, $1000 per month? for the next 5 years or so. KA CHING! I am now upstat and get libs this weekend, and your sister continues to live in poverty.

The same thing can possibly be done with a bank for financial institution if you can prove the money is coming in every month and that it is a sure thing, but you will get less money loaned that way.

Its a dirty business I am afraid, you'll have to get smarter than that if you want to help your sister. You are better off with the lifetime medical or something like that, something that cant be cashed in or sold or have the ownership transferred. If the lifetime medical could be transferred in ownership, then you have the possibility in kind, in exchange for cash, similar to the situation I outline above.

Good luck,

Pinchy.

Yours is exactly the reason I outlaid: modest rent (direct to landlord), weekly food supply (if such a company exists in your country), Medical cover, and watching the bills.

From the outside it looks like treating the sister as an "incompetent" but, as I pointed out, if the Will sets the Trust up properly (citing other cases of church-induced poverty), even Judge Judy would tell the Church to F off.

If such actions damage the surface relationship with the sister, then so be it. As pointed out above, if/when she wakes up, she will be grateful.

A reg cycle fo $5000 is going to look a bit silly if it has to be paid off at $5.00 per week.

 

[ScudMuffin]

Some background. My folks are getting on (late 70s), my brother (not a Scilon) is financially secure, I am pretty much broke (because of Scn) - but now that I'm out, I'm doing better. My sister however is as financially crippled as any long term Scn staff member.

Me & my bother) discussed our parents Will - and while he says he doesn't need the money, he doesn't want our sister's share to go straight to the Scilons. My brother discussed this with Dad too - who, agrees, but I just feel bad about this - plotting to cut her from the Will, even though we know she'll be under tremendous pressure to donate anything she gets.

My brother also checked with a lawyer - and despite all those old films, you can't dictate what someone spends their money on from beyond the grave.
Maybe they'll survive well into their 90s, but

So what can you buy someone, and leave it to them in your will, which will benefit them, and they can't sell it/cash it in (and give the profits to Scn)

Something like a lifetime's medical cover - any suggestions?

Or am I just evil for even going along with this idea. :confused2:

Not evil at all, in fact that's extreamely good that you're thinking of ways to give her something that the Co$ can't touch. I'd go down the insurance route if it can't be cashed in, something to keep her safe.

 

[Deb Lee]

This will cause a bad relationship with your sister - but you can put rules on the funds, like a monthly stipend. But think of your relationship, you know your sister best.

I have seen this happen in another family. The older sister had control of the trust fund and wouldnt give it to the younger sister in the church.

The point is also, that the money is intended for her. so, honestly, it's her property, and honestly she has every right to do what she wants with it.

She could end up taking you to court to get all her money now, in the event of your Dad's death.

sometimes you have to live and let live.

 

[Mest Lover]

My parent's, had, for a while, in thier wills that I would not inherit anything while I was in SCN. At that point they didn't know that I didn't want to be there and was working on getting out. I didn't tell anyone, not even my family. When I told them my story after getting out they understood what my problem was.

 

[Wisened One]

Something like a lifetime's medical cover - any suggestions?

Or am I just evil for even going along with this idea. :confused2:

THAT would be an AWESOME gift (even for someone NOT in scn/on Staff/SO!)

And no, you are not evil for thinking this way...my parents were thinking this way about me when they put me back into their will (long story) back when I was a scn and staff member.

 

[exccc]

This is a very interesting topic. Sorry I'm coming so late to it.

As most of us know, regs are very good at thinking up any way of getting at $$. Never underestimate it.

If I were you, I'd just cut her out completely. Split it up with you and your brother. Then after she's out, you can set her up.

It might not be the best way to go tax-wise, but I'd rather pay Uncle Sam an extra 10 percent then 100 percent to the church. In my opinion, it's the only way to really accomplish your objectives.

Hopefully, your parents will live 20 more years and by that time, she'll be out and the will can be amended.

One thing we can be quite sure of: Someday, your sister will be very grateful to you.

 

[NeXTep]

This will cause a bad relationship with your sister - but you can put rules on the funds, like a monthly stipend. But think of your relationship, you know your sister best.

<snipped>

sometimes you have to live and let live.

I tend to agree with you on live and let live.

The more secrecy and cabals you set up "protect" her from the cult the more you play into the hands of the cult and you play their game. Why not try to not interfere and just let your parents decide what they want to do after all it's their will and she has the right to her part. Maybe in the end she turns out more responsible than you think she is and leaves the cult once she gets all that money. Because then she will see opportunities beyond being a starving staff member.

 

[Smilla]

Trust fund like a pension?

 

[thetanic]

You set up a Trust. This is what older siblings do for their younger sibling survivors who are hopeless alcoholics. It is done so that they can be financially supported in some way without them using the money to drink themselves to death in short order. A scilon could be regarded as a hopeless alcoholic.

That's what I was going to say. Set up a trust for her to get X$ each year, but only in years where she's donated no money to Scientology and has not been on staff.

Further you could have dad add to that by having any monies left over after your sister dies to go to some anti-cult or anti-trafficking organization.

I thought about this for a while, and here's my suggestions:

1) Base allocation = $ in trust / (some life expectancy greater than the median) / 2
2) Sis must provide the following:
a) all bank account records, all loan and credit card records;
b) copy of credit reports for all major credit reporting agencies (including CHEX or something that lists the opening of bank accounts rather than credit cards);
c) full documentation for: i) sums of cash larger than $100; ii) any international transfers of any kind save normal vacation expenditures; iv) in the case of a home sale or mortgage refinance, 100% documentation on where every bit of money went.

3) If she does that and no $ is spent on Scn, then she gets at least her base allocation. If she's spent $ on Scn or refuses to provide documentation, then she gets nothing that year nor the following two years (unless she retroactively changes her mind and complies, but then she couldn't get the bonuses unless she had contemporaneous credit reports).

4) If she owes on consumer debt > 50% above the national median (currently around $8000 for a household), then she only gets the base allocation.

5) For revolving debt, take the total owed and divide it into the total limits, giving the utilization %, used to measure how debt-strapped someone is. Subtract it from 90 & ignore anything < 0. That is a bonus percentage of the base allocation. Example a: say her utilization was 23%. Subtracting it from 90 = 67. Let's say her base allocation is $100,000, so her utilization bonus is $67,000. Example b: Her utilization is 108%. Subtracting it from 90 = -18 but we're ignoring anything below 0. She gets no utilization bonus. Example c: If her utilization is 0%, she'd get the maximum bonus of $90,000.

6) The remaining 10% bonus will be based on how she fares credit scoring wise on a FICO score (or, if another score is later primarily used in industry, that score model). Classic risk FICO scores run from 300-850 and the median's somewhere around 720. So there's 130-point range between median and maximum. For this bonus, it's a linear bonus. If she has a score of 770, then it'd be (770-720)*(10/130) = 3.84%.

If she shows any $ going to any Scn organization or Scn-related group: no $ for 3 years and that money instead goes to organizations that are "not in alignment with Scientology."

When she dies, any remaining funds go to human rights groups.

 

[fisherman]

If your sister (or any sibling) has children, your parents can set up a trust that leaves the bulk of their assets ('the corpus') to the grandchildren but the interest earned on those assets is paid out to the you, your brother, and sister -- while any of you is still living.

This is a common way trusts, "skip a generation" and still take care of the everyday needs of the middle generation. Not surprisingly, it's sometimes called a 'generational trust'. It may have tax advantages as well.

The strength of this kind of trust is that your sister has no claim to the underlying assets. They belong to the grandchildren. Keep in mind, this strategy works even if, say, just your brother has child. The trust is really being set up to leave the corpus to the next generation (including any other grandchildren that may come along from any sibling) and still pay only the interest to you, your brother, and your sister.

A generational trust eliminates any squabbling over how much gets allocated, it's simply the interest on the assets divided by three. The trust, as an entity, would also be able to purchase medical, life, disability insurances for you, your sister, and brother. Ask your trust attorney!

The trustees (you and your brother) may be permitted to draw on the 'corpus' in the case of a clear emergency. This weakens the trust somewhat, but since only the trustees can determine what contitutes 'emergency', a scio lawfag would have trouble busting the trust claiming your sister was having an emergency.

You need a good trust attorney to advise you on this or any other trust strategy. Still some of these trust are very 'standard' so they shouldn't cost a fortune to set up.

Lastly, the easiest and legally most defensible strategy is ECC's. Have your parents leave the funds to you and your brother. Then your parent should write a LETTER, simply saying they expect you to take care of your sister to the best of your ability. So long as you and your brother are honest and 'in practice', share the estate EQUALLY with your sister (while still protecting her from the cult) your parents expectations will be fulfilled. That's the goal, afterall.

Whether any of these ideas should be shared with your Sister, is up to your parents. Openess is good, but only you and they know the personalities involved.

Best of luck! And please find an attorney who specializes in wills and estates. Your Dad will probably be comforted by the advice he receives and well worth the fee.

fisherman

 

[exccc]

The strength of this kind of trust is that your sister has no claim to the underlying assets. They belong to the grandchildren. Keep in mind, this strategy works even if, say, just your brother has child. The trust is really being set up to leave the corpus to the next generation (including any other grandchildren that may come along from any sibling) and still pay only the interest to you, your brother, and your sister.

This is good, but keep in mind, the church will get most of that interest. If that's ok with you, then fine.

I infer from this thread that there are three main goals, none of which is more important than the others.

1. Preservation of capital
2. Not having an inheritance your parents worked hard for frittered away, going to an unethical group.
3. Not least, the desire to be fair and equitable to your sister.

The trustees (you and your brother) may be permitted to draw on the 'corpus' in the case of a clear emergency. This weakens the trust somewhat, but since only the trustees can determine what contitutes 'emergency', a scio lawfag would have trouble busting the trust claiming your sister was having an emergency.

I can only stress again, any money she has access or even claim to will go to the church. It just will. I've seen it too many times to have any doubts. Any reg worth his salt will figure out a way to that "emergency."

Lastly, the easiest and legally most defensible strategy is ECC's. Have your parents leave the funds to you and your brother. Then your parent should write a LETTER, simply saying they expect you to take care of your sister to the best of your ability. So long as you and your brother are honest and 'in practice', share the estate EQUALLY with your sister (while still protecting her from the cult) your parents expectations will be fulfilled. That's the goal, afterall.

THAT'S the way to go. I get the feeling from your posts, you, your brother and your parents all have no disagreements or problems with all this.

 

[thetanic]

This is a common way trusts, "skip a generation" and still take care of the everyday needs of the middle generation. Not surprisingly, it's sometimes called a 'generational trust'. It may have tax advantages as well.

Any kids of hers are likely to also be scns, so this doesn't work if one's goal is to keep the money out of Scn's hands.

 

[NonScio]

Here's my suggestion. Put her share in a trust. Then have someone manage said trust and she's only allowed $500 or $1000 per month. Or whatever amount you all feel will be safe.

My hubby and I have done that with our estate (not that's it's huge) - but my daughter will only get $1000 a month until she reaches a certain age (I think it's 30). We figure if we were to die at the same time, she wouldn't be old enough or mature enough at her current age to handle roughly $500K in cash. So, we have trustees that will write her a check for $1000 a month until she's 30. At this point, that's a bit more than six years away and hubby and I don't plan on going in the next six years. LOL!!!

And no you're not evil for protecting the money from the CofS.

That sounds like the best way to do it. Certain allowance per month
until a certain age...perhaps over a period of 20 years. Long enough for
the cult spell to wear off and the victim to come to her senses.
Trust should be so invested as to protect from inflationary erosion of
the intitial amount's ourchasing power. I would suggest at least
10% of it invested in precious metals...Gold/Silver/Platinum.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

A trust is a really good idea.

 

[fisherman]

Some clarification

EXCC wrote:

This is good, but keep in mind, the church will get most of that interest. If that's ok with you, then fine.

In this type of 'generational trust' the annual interest is shared between the three siblings. It would be logical to pay it out monthly or quarterly -- therefore, she would never have more than 1/12th to 1/4 of 1/3 of the annual interest at any one time. It's a sound and fair method for limiting exposure.

The brothers are getting 2/3rds of the interest which keeps most of the annual income out of the sister's hands. Of course, they can gift additional funds to the sister if they deem it necessary. 100% of the underlying assets are protected from the sister and 66% of the annual interest income. That's a fair way to accomplish the OP's goals and maintain some family unity.

EXCC wrote:

I can only stress again, any money she has access or even claim to will go to the church. It just will. I've seen it too many times to have any doubts. Any reg worth his salt will figure out a way to that "emergency."

I disagree. Only the "trustees" (the brothers) can make this determination. However, the point may be moot, since this 'emergency tap' into corpus may not be legal any longer. Ask the trust attorney.

The problem with trusts that dole out a stipend (ala Kathy I'm Out) is that the the underlying assets (the corpus) would be held in trust for the middle generation siblings and therefore acccessible to the daughter - at some point. And, it may be impossible to prevent her from immediately using her share of the underlying assetss as collateral on a loan. The regges' would certainly help her through that process.

EXCC's idea to leave all to the brothers would accomplish the task, but I think a generational trust is better and it may present tax advantages depending on the parents assets.

With the generational trust, the brothers maintain control of 2/3rds of the annual interest income. The daughter never has access to more than 1/3 of the monthly or quarterly interest income. That seems a small price to pay for a system that is inherently fair, works automatically (banks can automate the payment process) -- and most importantly eliminates any need for the brothers to engage in discretionary decision making that might cause arguments and 'bad blood'.

fisherman

 

[thetanic]

With the generational trust, the brothers maintain control of 2/3rds of the annual interest income. The daughter never has access to more than 1/3 of the monthly or quarterly interest income. That seems a small price to pay for a system that is inherently fair, works automatically -- and most importantly eliminates any need for discretionary decision makings that might cause arguments and 'bad blood'.

Doesn't have to be a trust for everyone.

One additional thing I hadn't thought of in my post: if daughter or spouse or kids ever disconnects from the brothers, then she's forfeited her money for the duration that she's disconnected.

I've seen the kind of trust I proposed before (with different constraints) -- it does actually change behavior. It might help get her out or at least keep her from being sucked further in.

 

[exccc]

A quick clarification

The problem with trusts that dole out a stipend (ala Kathy I'm Out) is that the the underlying assets (the corpus) are held in trust for the middle generation and therefore acccessible to the daughter at some point. And it may be legally impossible to prevent her from immediately using the corpus of the trust as collateral on a loan. The regges' might 'get her' from that angle.

That's basically what I was worried about.

With the generational trust, the brothers maintain control of 2/3rds of the annual interest income. The daughter never has access to more than 1/3 of the monthly or quarterly interest income. That seems a small price to pay for a system that is inherently fair, works automatically (banks can automate the payment process) -- and most importantly eliminates any need for the brothers to engage in discretionary decision making that might cause arguments and 'bad blood'.

Yeah, but it seems to me your overlooking one important factor. What if the brothers want their share? They shouldn't have to suffer just because the sister is a Scientologist.

 

[fisherman]

EXCC wrote:

Yeah, but it seems to me your overlooking one important factor. What if the brothers want their share? They shouldn't have to suffer just because the sister is a Scientologist.

You are right, but I wasn't overlooking this, just suggesting an alternative. If this doesn't work for the brothers, then it doesn't work.

In some families, there are efforts made to push funds 'down the line'. If one or more siblings had a gifted child that was planning for medical school and the family wanted to support that goal financially, would be an example. Every family's different.

OP should talk a trust attorney. If Dad avoids lawyers (can't blame him) the brothers could have the initial discussions and bring Dad in after.

Best of luck!

fisherman

 

[thetanic]

The problem with trusts that dole out a stipend (ala Kathy I'm Out) is that the the underlying assets (the corpus) would be held in trust for the middle generation siblings and therefore acccessible to the daughter - at some point. And, it may be impossible to prevent her from immediately using her share of the underlying assetss as collateral on a loan. The regges' would certainly help her through that process.

1. Is it possible to hold the remains in trust for a third party (e.g. Amnesty International) while it's being paid out to her?

2. It seems that if there's some clear "no money on this is to be spent on Scn" and she were regged with it as collateral for the loan, given my idea, she'd (I hope) forfeit the right to receive the $ (in the short term) and she'd be stuck with a big loan and no income to pay it. In bankruptcy, it'd be shown to be a fraud, thus she couldn't file BK on the $ either.

 

[looker]

I'd suggest a trust fund with you and your brother as joint trustees. You both know what is going on and you know your sister so this is much safer than having a lawyer or whoever administrate it. Joint trustees keeps you both accountable, and you will have the discretion to dole out larger amount for a medical emergency or whatever legitimate reason she has for needing money.

Probably a good Idea. Most likely the Scion reges would look at $500 a month as A structured settlement.

On the West coast I see a commercial for J.G. Wentworth stating if you have a Structured Settlement due to a medical judgement or State allotment or lottery winnings.
You can call them and they will give you cash for taking over the settlement.

So say the Inheritance was $50 thousand distributed out at $500 per month. A shark may give her $30 thousand now, and take the settlement legally signed over to him and make $20K on the deal. and your sister may still be liable for Inheritance taxes.

Maybe you could give sys a routing form to star rate operation clambake, Xenu.net and WhyWeProtest etc., docs before payments might commense.

No I think you are watching out for your sis just fine. As you should. Best wishes for a good outcome.