The questions answered so far (The Q&A is still ongoing!)
Q:
Hi, welcome holdingcorners!
Just to kick things off, I have a few to get out of the way:
How long have you been taking courses?
CofS or Indy/Freezone/etc.?
If you don't mind, where on the bridge are you?
What benefits have you experienced?
Do you have any criticisms of the Tech or Management, or is this a completely positive experience?
What criticism are you aware of, and did it give you second thought?
Are you concerned about "entheta" on this sub or elsewhere, that it might prevent you from looking at it (for example, Going Clear, the doc or book, is a thing - have you seen/read it, or plan to?)
Boxers or briefs? [Edit: Or pantaloons?]
Also, feel free to assign yourself some flair - you can do so from the sidebar on the right if you wish.
Thanks for posting!
A:
"How long have you been taking courses?"
Less than two years.
"CofS or Indy/Freezone/etc.?"
I've only taken course at Church of Scientology.
"If you don't mind, where on the bridge are you?"
All my courses are introductory in nature, I believe.
"What benefits have you experienced?"
I don't attribute these things solely to Scientology by any means. I've gotten that I'm totally responsible for my experience of life, an ability to be with others without defensiveness or need to be critical/evaluate others, again seeing and experiencing the small things in life that move me and I find beautiful, not taking things so seriously, not making myself or others wrong, and an ability to simply be and observe.
"Do you have any criticisms of the Tech or Management, or is this a completely positive experience?"
My understanding is that all of Scientology is comprised of written words of L. Ron Hubbard. I don't think that's workable in practice, especially over the longer term. I think I understand some of the motivation for this, since organizations have been destroyed through adulteration; at the same time, I think there's a better way, in which there's room for new insight and refinement of practices based on learned experience.
"What criticism are you aware of, and did it give you second thought?"
I certainly won't list them all. Some have to do with upper level texts and processing, of course. Others have to do with the Sea Org and ethics/discipline within the organizational staff. I'm not a member of any Scientology organization. I don't have a sense of "second thought," which isn't to say that I invalidate or validate anything.
"Are you concerned about 'entheta' on this sub or elsewhere, that it might prevent you from looking at it (for example, Going Clear, the doc or book, is a thing - have you seen/read it, or plan to?)"
No, I'm not concerned about that at all.
"Boxers or briefs? [Edit: Or pantaloons?]"
Briefs.
Q:
Welcome /u/holdingcorners , glad to see you here. The discussions on this sub have a tendency to be a little one sided, so it's always welcome when we have a voice that can inject a little balance.
Where do you get your news about Scientology? Are there third-party websites, newspapers, journals that you trust to report objectively on the Church?
Did you do any independent research on Scientology prior to getting on lines?
What's your understanding of the nature of the opposition to Scientology? What do you think drives people to criticize or investigate the Church?
A:
"Where do you get your news about Scientology? Are there third-party websites, newspapers, journals that you trust to report objectively on the Church?"
Google News feed is one source. I have watched "Going Clear," read Scientology-critical books and watched Scientology-critical youtube videos, etc. I've read some other materials that I think are more of an academic nature of "New Religious Movements," etc. I also read Church of Scientology materials, including web and magazine materials.
"Did you do any independent research on Scientology prior to getting on lines?"
Before taking any course, I certainly did so.
"What's your understanding of the nature of the opposition to Scientology? What do you think drives people criticize or investigate the Church?"
The motivation for criticism or investigation is all a matter of personal viewpoint and ethics. Some people might find Scientology philosophy or the Scientology organizational practices to be immoral, or otherwise things to be opposed and acted against.
Q:
Did it bother you that no independent researcher has ever concluded that Hubbard's engram theories are correct? There is not a single study I know of which reached a conclusion that Hubbard was correct, and there are multiple I know of that concluded that he was wrong. If his entire religion is based on engrams and his beliefs about the mind, yet they have been proven false, why would you start to take courses?
Is there any process unique to Hubbard's beliefs that you have had a positive experience with that cannot be obtained via meditation, yoga, or any other practice? For example, TRs are not unique to Hubbard's beliefs, and can be practiced and learned about in various other forms, with similar results. Why not pursue a practice that can be verified by the scientific community as true?
I understand why you would continue to use something you have found useful, I do the same. Even though I know Scientology is mostly false (due in part to the fact that the basic theories have never been duplicated in a scientific environment) I still use some basic philosophical ideas it contains in my daily life. However, why did you start studying something if you had read independent research on the subject prior to starting?
A:
"Did it bother you that no independent researcher has ever concluded that Hubbard's engram theories are correct?"
Not at all. While Dianetics book states that engrams are a physical phenomenon, I believe that later on, this is abandoned in favor of stating that they are not physical in nature at all. My interest is in workability; that is my criterion in practice.
"If his entire religion is based on engrams and his beliefs about the mind, yet they have been proven false, why would you start to take courses?"
I have a lot of agreement with the philosophy. Of particular note, regarding service facsimiles and responsibility. The workability for me is paramount over the veracity of any particular claim.
"Is there any process unique to Hubbard's beliefs that you have had a positive experience with that cannot be obtained via meditation, yoga, or any other practice? For example, TRs are not unique to Hubbard's beliefs, and can be practiced and learned about in various other forms, with similar results."
I don't know the answer to that question based on my experience. I hope that people get a lot of value from whatever works for them.
"Why not pursue a practice that can be verified by the scientific community as true?"
There is a physical universe with objective phenomena. Methods can be deployed to try to approximate the actuality of what is occurring in that universe. As for truth, I do agree with: what's true for you is true. My experience has a lot to do with physical phenomena, and also has a lot to do with the reality that I create on an ongoing basis with my thoughts considerations. I'm not interested in the veracity of a description so much as I am in the impact on my own experience. That isn't to say that I don't find science and double-blind studies to be interesting.
"...why did you start studying something if you had read independent research on the subject prior to starting?"
To clarify, that study wasn't independent of that "independent research." I concurrently looked at Scientology-produced information and Scientology-critical information.
Q:
What were the wins you got from Scientology? Tell us more.
A:
While I certainly don't attribute this solely to Scientology: I've gotten that I'm totally responsible for my experience of life, an ability to be with others without defensiveness or need to be critical/evaluate others, again seeing and experiencing the small things in life that move me and I find beautiful, not taking things so seriously, not making myself or others wrong, and an ability to simply be and observe.
Q:
Do you believe the idea of Scientology that we are immortal spiritual beings who have been around for a very long time and have forgotten their true nature? If so, are you interested in trying to uncover your past and recover your OT abilities?
A:
I have no reality on "immortality." My experience is in the present. I can understand that immortality might be true or useful to someone. I don't have any knowledge on whether or not this life is the only I've lived. I have interest in getting clearer on this lifetime's experiences. My objective is to enjoy my experience of living; I don't have some other conceptual or real objective that's different from and not a part of that.
Q:
How much has your experience with Scientology cost you in dollars so far ?
A:
About $2,000.
Q:
Has the staff tried to sell you on any major Bridge actions? How did you turn them down?
A:
Yes. I declined, stating that I had other course interests.
Q:
How would you rate your over all expirence with the Church? What were some of the courses you took about? Did you enjoy auditing? If so, what did it entail for you? If there was a Church of Scientology without the controversial elements do you believe more people would attend? Thanks!
A:
"How would you rate your over all expirence with the Church?"
So, first of all, I consider that I'm responsible for my experience of the church. Sometimes I've found certain things to be frustrating; for instance, in cases in which I didn't agree with or get the reason for a particular policy or way of doing things. I've endeavored to learn from my experiences in those cases, and recognize that I'm responsible for my choice to engage with the church. Overall, I've gotten a lot of value from my experiences.
"What were some of the courses you took about?"
I've done a number of book courses on various subjects. I learned about service facsimiles, or the tendency of people to rely on things like illness and inability to excuse failures in life. That is very real to me. I have done a couple courses in which I did training routines on communication. I think that TR-0, looking at someone for an extended period of time, to be very powerful. I got that I could be there, without feeling compelled to be interesting, and that opened up a lot of possibility for me. A lot of my study has been outside the context of coursework.
"Did you enjoy auditing? If so, what did it entail for you?"
I only took one intensive of auditing so far. There wasn't a lot to it for me - I don't suppose I had a lot of upset to handle, and that auditing was addressed more toward that. I've also listened to group auditing by L. Ron Hubbard, and found that to be a great experience. I was able to get outside my head and be more extroverted, in term of my experience of the world.
"If there was a Church of Scientology without the controversial elements do you believe more people would attend?"
Maybe. I think that what is controversial is a subjective thing and subject to change over time. My sense is that there is a certain lack of tactical flexibility organizationally.
Q:
I assume you're talking about the church of Scientology, the organization run by David Miscavige. How long have you been in? What level have you reached?
Have you been "regged" to keep buying books and courses, make donations, have they called or written you at home for these purposes?
What have your interactions with staff members, Sea Org members or other members of the Scientology public been like? Has the value you've received been from courses/auditing, from the church itself, or both?
I'm sure I'll think of more questions, but I'll stick to these for the moment.
A:
"I assume you're talking about the church of Scientology, the organization run by David Miscavige. How long have you been in? What level have you reached?"
I'm not a member of any Scientology organization. I have taken courses through Church of Scientology for the past couple year. The courses are introductory in nature, I believe.
"Have you been 'regged' to keep buying books and courses, make donations, have they called or written you at home for these purposes?"
I've been requested to take courses and purchase books. I've received phone calls and mail in this regard. I've not taken any course or purchased any book/item I didn't choose to take and purchase. While that might seem like a truism, my sense is that some might think that "pressure" somehow mitigates individual responsibility and choice.
"What have your interactions with staff members, Sea Org members or other members of the Scientology public been like? Has the value you've received been from courses/auditing, from the church itself, or both?"
I may have met Sea org members in person - I'm not sure. I've had plenty of interaction with staff members. Generally, I find them to be very nice people who are very interested in their work. I appreciate the level of honesty I've experienced from them. The value that I mentioned came from courses and my own study of materials.
Q:
Are you only interested in promoting Scientology, or would you also be interested in learning about criticisms of Scientology? I can tell you right now that we could tell you things which might alter your own opinion of Scientology. Are you concerned that we might enturbulate you?
A:
I'm not concerned about upset from getting information on Scientology. I've spent much time looking into various matters, have watched "Going Clear," read Scientology-critical books and watched Scientology-critical youtube videos, etc.
Q:
Now that I have seen your responses to some of the other questions I will throw in my questions.
What is your belief about the stories told in Going Clear and other documentaries of that nature? Ie: do you believe they are made up, only extreme cases, all true, etc?
Depending on your above answer, if you believe they are not all true, how do you reconcile the fact that there are so many ex-members all agreeing on basic treatment of Sea Org members, etc. If you do believe they are all true stories, why do you continue to give money to an organization obviously abusing its staff? Why not move over to the Freezone or Indy movements, where you could have better service, for cheaper, without supporting an abusive organization?
Those are the questions I am most interested in, but as a side note, I wanted to mention that as an ex-Scientologist, who fully believes the CofS is a cult, and that Scientology itself is (mostly) false, I also believe it has a few really helpful tools. I think that TRs are actually very useful, as is the concept of getting "O/Ws" off your chest (confessing wrong doings is an age old therapy), as is the basic process of auditing (asking questions and actually listening, without judgement to the answers). In short, I believe all the things you have done so far are the only useful parts of Scientology, and I believe it is structured that way so people will become invested in the subject and then not want to admit when things stop working as well (when OW tech is over done and you are forced to do some huge OW writeup, or when you do countless hours of objectives LONG past the EP of the process, etc). This is a calculated move to draw people in and keep them in. I want to urge you to be cautious and never emotional or financially invest yourself into the subject. You can use a therapy (like Scientology) to improve your life, but be careful not to allow it to take over your life.
With that, I have one further line of questioning:
What plans do you have for your future in Scientology? Do you plan on doing training? Any major Bridge steps? Do you have any plans on spending a total of more than 5K on Scientology in your lifetime? If yes, have you considered the testimonies from so many other members who were once as happy as you, but later on regretted spending so much money chasing a dream they later believed was impossible to attain? Do you believe that a similar thing could happen to you?
A:
"What is your belief about the stories told in Going Clear and other documentaries of that nature? Ie: do you believe they are made up, only extreme cases, all true, etc?"
I don't know. I personally think that there are plenty of Scientology-critical people who are saying what's true to them based on their personal experience and ethical standpoint. When looking at something "that happened," I like to separate objective facts from story/interpretation. If someone strikes someone in the face, that's an objective fact, for instance. If someone "was abused," that's a story/interpretation. My understanding of Scientology organization is that it's comprised of people are determine and choose to associate with it. And then sometimes they choose to leave.
"If you do believe they are all true stories, why do you continue to give money to an organization obviously abusing its staff? Why not move over to the Freezone or Indy movements, where you could have better service, for cheaper, without supporting an abusive organization?"
I don't have the information. What I observe is a bunch of people that seem pretty upbeat and seem to me to authentically share their experiences. I don't have personal experience with the movements you refer to.
"I want to urge you to be cautious and never emotional or financially invest yourself into the subject. You can use a therapy (like Scientology) to improve your life, but be careful not to allow it to take over your life."
I appreciate your motivation and concern. I recognize the power of my own choice and responsibility in the matter of life.
"What plans do you have for your future in Scientology? Do you plan on doing training? Any major Bridge steps? Do you have any plans on spending a total of more than 5K on Scientology in your lifetime? If yes, have you considered the testimonies from so many other members who were once as happy as you, but later on regretted spending so much money chasing a dream they later believed was impossible to attain? Do you believe that a similar thing could happen to you?"
Jointly addressing the above questions: My plans at present include book courses, listening to group processing sessions, and, more generally, keeping in present time, and honoring my word to others and myself. I evaluate my experience as I have it, while not closing paths off out of resignation and cynicism. I don't think I know it all, and I'm a very curious person.
THE Q&A IS STILL ACTIVE, SO ASK AWAY!