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An Appeal to Reason

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hi, Bts2free,

I agree about now sugarcoating facts re Scn, CofS, Hubbard and all the rest of it. I do think, though, that one can still achieve that and be civil. Not that you're saying otherwise- this is just an adjunct to what you are saying. :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
These days, I find myself more and more acting as a sort of mediator.

You see, I have friends who still consider themselves Scientologists, and I have friends who are no longer Scientologists. Some of my ex-Scientologist friends say “Eeew! How can you be friends with them (the Scientologists)!” And some of my “independent Scientologist” friends say “Eeeew! How can you be friends with them (the ex-Scientologists)!”

How can I be friends with them? Well, because I’ve never required, as a condition of friendship, that someone agree with me.

Someone once said, “You only learn from people you disagree with.” I believe this. I’m not trying to set my life up as an echo-chamber of like-minded people. I have friends who are Evangelical Christians, Jews, Atheists, Right-wing Conservatives, wild-eyed Liberals, and so on. I enjoy a good conversation – or even a good argument.

I have a friend who is an artist. One day, someone walked into his gallery, looked at one of his paintings, and said “I hate it.” My friend said, “Good! At least you have an opinion!”

Can’t we rejoice in the fact that people have opinions that may be different from our own? And maybe get a little curious as to why they have those opinions, and why they differ from ours?

I recall getting in touch with an old friend a few years after we had left the Int Base. We had gone in different directions. He still believed in Scientology and practiced it outside the Church. I didn’t. So we had some heated discussions. He didn’t understand why I was speaking out against the Church. I didn’t understand why he wasn’t. So we had a vigorous discussion. But we didn’t “disconnect” and we didn’t start vilifying each other and we didn’t call each other names (well, OK, maybe once or twice!).

Why? Because we were good friends and respected each other. We still disagree on many things, but we understand and respect each other more. I understood a bit better why someone might continue practicing some parts of Scientology, and he gained a better understanding of why someone would not. And we remain close friends.

We weren’t arguing because we “hated” each other. I gave him my criticisms of Scientology not because I “hate Scientology” but because I wanted him to understand my viewpoint.

I have another friend who – seriously folks – is trying to convert me to Christianity. I told him it was a lost cause – and told him my criticisms of Christianity – again, not because I “hate Christianity” but because I wanted him to understand where I was coming from. Now he respects my right not to be a Christian, and I respect his right to be a Christian. And we’re still friends.

When we were members of the Church of Scientology, we were taught to instantly attack anyone who was critical of Scientology or LRH in the slightest. We demonized these people. They were “evil.” They were to be attacked!

I’m afraid that residual impulse still exists in many.

It’s easy to demonize people who don’t agree with you, to set up a stereotyped, evil strawman. Supposedly, we are told, there are people on the so-called “left wing of Scientology” who want to burn all Scientology books and forbid anyone from ever applying Scientology – even outside the Church. They supposedly criticize Scientology out of pure hatred.

The problem? I don’t know anyone like that – and I know a lot of people. Sure, I know people who are critical of Scientology – hell, I am myself. But most people I know, no matter how critical they are of Scientology, respect the right of people to believe whatever they want and practice whatever they want – as long as they don’t abuse or hurt anyone.

But no – now anyone who criticizes Scientology tech or LRH in any way is labeled by some as a “hater” or a “left-wing cat.”

And there are stereotypes in the other direction, too. Supposedly, anyone who still believes in any part of Scientology or practices it is a brainwashed idiot, robotically accepting anything and everything Hubbard said as gospel truth. Again, I don’t know anyone like that – and I know a lot of people.
Most of those who still consider themselves Scientologists have their own questions and doubts. And they are working their way through them, just as we did. They may not talk about it on the chat boards or blogs, but they do talk about it privately. They do know the tech is not perfect and Hubbard was not perfect. And they are trying to sort out for themselves what is true for them and what is not.

We all went through our own experience with Scientology and we all took different things away from it. We are all trying to sort through that experience and make some sense of it. So is it possible to respect each other’s journey and to respect each other’s conclusions, even if they differ from our own?

There has been talk of the “Middle Way” of Buddhism. But remember that one of the points of the “Noble Eightfold Path” is “Right Speech.” And one of the facets of “Right Speech” is “abandoning divisive speech.”

“What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here...Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord...”

So, if you are villanizing those who disagree with you, making them into a stereotyped, evil strawman, and then attacking them, are you really practicing anything that could be classified as a “Middle Way?”

We all seem to agree on one thing, that abuse, criminality and fraud in the name of Scientology must stop. So maybe we can focus on that.

Or not.

Peace.

Jeff

Hi Jeff.

Have you appealed to Marty's reason, too?

Because that's one of the first things that I did when I started posting on his blog.

I saw him slam people right and left who he had earlier fairgamed. I saw people hold out olive branches to him and have him blow them off, or insult them outright.

He blew me off and insulted me repeatedly in email conversations that I had with him. But I kept it up, and pretty soon he would take the gloves off and be civil again. I think we have a kind of arms-length acquaintance with each other today - as long as I agree with him.

When I disagree, it's my "case" that needs to be "looked at" and discussed on his blog, and I need to go "take a walk" to key out the wrong side of the GPM I've become stuck to.

I have found that Marty is one pugnacious dude, and he uses Scientology-instilled make-wrongs and manipulations to try to control you.

I should not expect a fervent Scientologist to behave any differently. But he's not always the easiest guy to reason with. Sometimes he is. But certainly not all the time.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I've appealed to reason. And I will continue to. But as I learn more and more about Marty's true stands on things, I find that I disagree with him more and more.

Which should not be a problem - right?
 
However, DM and his cronies are still practicing what LRH taught in his Management tech. Therefor it is my firm beliefe that the "church" should be torn down.

With respect

Bob

Not terribly surprisingly, this is a view held by many who consider themselves scientologists. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It's admirable that you try to see beyond original disagreements to find the agreement. Less admirable that you feel it useful to agree that Crazy Aunt Sadie's lampshade is a crown in order to 'get into comm with her' and I'm glad you haven't agreed to prosecute enemies of the crown on her behalf. :)

Zinj
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Not terribly surprisingly, this is a view held by many who consider themselves scientologists. :)


Mark A. Baker

Shh! You'll burst some illusory bubbles there, Mark! It's a cherished belief held by many FZ-detractors that all non CofS Scn'ists think that the only thing wrong with CofS is DM and that it could be salvaged.
 

Good twin

Floater
It seems to me that every person who has risen (and I use the term loosely) to a position of power in any of the various Scientology groups has ultimately gone bat shit crazy.

I think that maybe realizing this was what got David Mayo to throw in the towel before his leadership in the indie community drove him around the bend. I know there were other reasons for him to lay low and stop playing, but maybe he figured it out.

It it just me or does anyone else see this? I was just telling Kathy that the top of the Scientology bridge may be "crazy as a bed bug". Perhaps I would amend that to the top of the Scientology Org Board is "hopelessly insane".

Yes, Zinj. It's by design, not by accident.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
It seems to me that every person who has risen (and I use the term loosely) to a position of power in any of the various Scientology groups has ultimately gone bat shit crazy.

I think that maybe realizing this was what got David Mayo to throw in the towel before his leadership in the indie community drove him around the bend. I know there were other reasons for him to lay low and stop playing, but maybe he figured it out.

It it just me or does anyone else see this? I was just telling Kathy that the top of the Scientology bridge may be "crazy as a bed bug". Perhaps I would amend that to the top of the Scientology Org Board is "hopelessly insane".

I think you will find what you describe in any ideological organization, although Scientology is particularly batty.

The Catholic Church, the Republican Party, The Communist Party, The Objectivist Organization - any group whose survival depends on the infallibility of the ideology they are selling - is going to be crazy to a certain extent.

Why?

Because everything they stand for, and everything they pay their bills and feed their families with, depends on making sure their fixed ideology is right in all circumstances.

So where their ideology is wrong - and all of them are wrong somewhere - they look like this:

tommybugeyed.png


They just can't help it.

And the more they must assert the rightness and defend, defend, defend the wrongnesses of their ideology, the crazier they get. And the more fanatical. And the more evil they get, too, even while believing that they are the only non-evil people around.

The craziness, I think, has to do with identifying so strongly with a fixed ideology that you have to become it.

That's when you go crazy.

You can't be yourself any more, or think for yourself any more.

The degree to which you've adopted an ideology, is the degree to which you've lost yourself.

That's how I see it.

Now.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
It seems to me that every person who has risen (and I use the term loosely) to a position of power in any of the various Scientology groups has ultimately gone bat shit crazy.

I think that maybe realizing this was what got David Mayo to throw in the towel before his leadership in the indie community drove him around the bend. I know there were other reasons for him to lay low and stop playing, but maybe he figured it out.

It it just me or does anyone else see this? I was just telling Kathy that the top of the Scientology bridge may be "crazy as a bed bug". Perhaps I would amend that to the top of the Scientology Org Board is "hopelessly insane".

Yes, Zinj. It's by design, not by accident.
Yes, the further up the bridge you go, the more out of touch with reality you are.
 
It seems to me that every person who has risen (and I use the term loosely) to a position of power in any of the various Scientology groups has ultimately gone bat shit crazy.

I think that maybe realizing this was what got David Mayo to throw in the towel before his leadership in the indie community drove him around the bend. I know there were other reasons for him to lay low and stop playing, but maybe he figured it out.

It it just me or does anyone else see this? I was just telling Kathy that the top of the Scientology bridge may be "crazy as a bed bug". Perhaps I would amend that to the top of the Scientology Org Board is "hopelessly insane".

Yes, Zinj. It's by design, not by accident.

This is a comment from over a decade ago

http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/loose-ends/mm-prince.html

The bottom line is that the hierarchy of Scientology is composed of people who are very, very, very mentally ill, sick people of the worst sort. Why? Because they are sick and don't know it. In all honesty, I hope to reach them so that they can wake up and start getting well, like I have, and others have to.

Well, this ties into the next story I'm going to tell, which may give some insight into why some of those people are so sick in the first place.

This story is about Marty Rathbun.
 

Good twin

Floater
This is a comment from over a decade ago

http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/loose-ends/mm-prince.html

The bottom line is that the hierarchy of Scientology is composed of people who are very, very, very mentally ill, sick people of the worst sort. Why? Because they are sick and don't know it. In all honesty, I hope to reach them so that they can wake up and start getting well, like I have, and others have to.

Well, this ties into the next story I'm going to tell, which may give some insight into why some of those people are so sick in the first place.

This story is about Marty Rathbun.

Thank you CNCML, Smilla, Fluffy and Lanzo. I guess it's a recurring theme. God help the poor lost souls still under the spell of the scam cult. It's so much worse than I ever imagined.
 
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