Analysis: TRs, Comm Course

[freethinker]

Whatever fits.

Depends more on the personal viewpoint in that case I'd say. I'd still be like "Get out of my face and scream to the wall, you jerk."
I am willing to concede though that if you leave the degradation parts out, various other mental techniques use the "don't react to distraction whatever it is" as well to good effects.

 

[AnonKat]

Look up all definitions of Scieno and Logos and you will come to see Scientology can mean whatever you want

I believe you touched upon the correct "why" in this sentence below.







I agree with this Gadfly but don't believe that any good stuff once extracted from the other nasty and useless garbage should be called "Scientology". For one thing, Scientology is a package deal which includes KSW at its core. One cannot surgically remove KSW and than still call it Scientology IMO. Another reason, and more importantly, is that extracting the good parts and calling them "Scientology" will have the effect of promoting ALL of Scientology. If you sit down and do TR's with someone who happens to benefit from the drills, they might later get sucked into a CoS out of curiosity as they want to see what else is available from Scientology. This could lead to their bankruptcy, having their family destroyed, or numerous other harmful effects which could ruin their life. Scientology is an evil, insane, criminal cult. I don't have an issue with anyone extracting any of the good stuff and using it. But I don't get why someone would want to call themselves a Scientologist.

 

[Gadfly]

I have my usual objection here about the bull baiting part:
If someone gets aggressively in your face, insulting you, and you are being conditioned by drill not to show an emotional reaction...that's not how you make a focused mind, that's how you make submissive slaves.

It's normal that you react angry to insults, it's healthy, it's what humans do.

No, it NEVER was that way for me. It may be that way for others, but I doubt it.

Also, just because something is "normal for humans" never meant for me that I shouldn't try or work to excel and be "better than that". I do have friends who do just LOVE an excuse to fly off the handle, get insulted and have a "reason" to display all sorts of anger. Maybe it is "normal" for some or most, but I don't see it as desirable or essential. But then, I have been on the "road to betterment" in some form or another most of my life.

If someone gets aggressively in my face, insulting me, I walk away, or if I can't do that, I simply be there, in my serene calm, and see the person to be the tremendous asshole that he or she is.

I will give an example. I can give many. While in the Sea Org I decided to route out while on Flag. I was on the routing form, keeping my mouth shut, and continuing to do my job VERY WELL on my post. I was "in control" of every aspect of it. They weren't going to screw me by tricking me into violating the "leaving and leaves" P/L, as I had seen happen to others.

The Captain FSO, Ron Norton, walked into where I was sitting, sat down with Jon Lundeen, the FLB Finance Director, and he started grilling me. I can guarantee that I was in NO WAY an "obedient slave". And, I did very much apply what I learned in TR Bull Baiting, and calmly sat there confronting, and fielding his tosses at me.

He asked me if I was routing out. I told him that I can't discuss it and he needed to talk to HCO. He got up, slammed a book down hard on my desk, and yelled at me, "if you leave staff, I will make sure that you NEVER can do upper level services anywhere, not EVER". He told me, "I can see your case, I have that ability being on NOTs, and you are wired up tight like the lights of New York City". He went on and on for awhile, and he was VERY MUCH "in my face".

I didn't answer. I remained calm, "kept my TRs in", heard what he said, and ignored him on then inside. I knew that he was full of shit, because first, I saw ex-SO members getting services on Flag often, and second, when it comes right down to it, "money talks", and when it came time for me to "donate", nobdoy was going to stop me. I thought he was a moron. Now, yes, a part of me would have liked to stand up and walk out, telling him that he was an idiot. But, the MAIN reason I controlled myself was because I had family in the Sea Org. I did not intend to get declared anytime soon, and it was THAT PRESSURE that kept me in line. Organizational pressure and control - NOT some strange zombie-effect of TRs.

My point is that I USED what I learned in TR BB to remain calm, to NOT react (I did want to spit in his face or call him a total retard) , and to get what I WANTED. Finally, after a few more weeks, the Captain was so pissed at looking at me that he ordered me out of the area, but they still needed me because I handled key aspects of income lines, so they hid me in the staff galley, where I would do my post, AND still put time every day in on my routing form. I didn't get declared, I routed out, and I ended up on Flag services within a few years.

I often used what I learned with TR BB to handle noisy SO executives. Also, if I had never done TRs and studied about ARC, I would probably be dead, because, as I have described before here on ESMB, I was threatened twice with robbery and potentially murder, at the point of a gun, in the worse section of the Bronx, while driving a taxi cab on the night shift in NYC, and it was ONLY through my training with TRs and ARC that I am alive today. In fact, I knew another Scientologist, who wasn't good at all at "not" reacting, and he WAS murdered in NYC also driving a taxi cab. So, I have had very real use and benefits from TRs, and NONE of it, as far as I can see EVER involved me becoming some "submissive slave".

 

[Captain Koolaid]

And then there's the staff member trying to figure out what he's doing wrong because his life is such a mess, and a nice and helpful non-scio guy tries to get through to him. The scientologist keeps his TRs in because he knows that the wog is full of shit.

If you think about it, bull baiting is designed to tune out entheta. It may be helpful in some situation, but overall it's a bad thing. Just me 2 cents.

 

[AngeloV]

I did the Comm course and Pro TRs course in the late 1970s. I completed both courses and eventually went on to become a NED auditor. Here is my take on TRs

1. OT TR0 - This has nothing to do with communication. It may be thought of as meditation - sitting quietly and clearing one's mind of extraneous thoughts. Usefulness: 0 for communication, may be good for meditation but you don't need someone else sitting across from you who is also meditating.

2. TR0 - This is staring. Anyway you look at this, it is nothing to do with communication. Staring is impolite in most societies. I know that the intent of this TR is to 'be there' and only 'be there'. I'm already 'there' when I and talking to someone, I don't need to train myself to 'be there'. Usefulness - 0.

3. TR0 Bullbait - The ability to relax while someone is communicating all sorts of emotions and what not is useful. HOWEVER, not responding or responding with no emotion can be very, very bad and sever communication with the other person who will think that you are not listening. Usefulness - 3 out of 10.

4. TR1 - Reading phrases out of ONE book until you are 'duplicated' is boring. No emotion is allowed at all. This is robotic at best. This humorless, repetitive routine does not teach one anything except that reading the same phrases over and over again is boring. Usefulness - 0.

5. TR2 - I think this routine is as useful TR1 - 0. Acknowledging nonsense phrases? This is useless. No one acknowledges nonsense unless, possibly their 2-year old is babbling. Toddlers love it when you fake it that you are understanding their noises.

6. TR3 - This is robotic and anti-social. Re-asking the same two questions while the other person fakes answers or doesn't answer is just plain weird. Also, the phrase "I'll repeat the auditing command" is not plain old talking. No one, unless you are in the military, 'commands' anyone to comply with a verbal command. And PHYSICALLY keeping the coach in their chair if they try to leave? This isn't communication, it's abuse. One should never FORCE someone to talk to you. Usefulness - -5 because it can teach abusive behavior.

7. TR4 - Same as TR3 but with the coach stating 'originations' like in auditing. Same usefulness as TR3.

I've told non-scientologists about TRs and on the face of it, they don't seem so bad. Except for that teeny-tiny fact that you have to do these for HOURS. And HOURS. And HOURS. To pass PRO TR0, I had to do it for 4 hours straight - no excessive blinking, no tearing, no movement, nothing. The others for somewhat less time but still for HOURs.

I think anyone can learn so much more about communicating using something like 'Toastmasters' if you need to do public speaking. I'm sure you can learn other techniques with some good home training: "Look at me when I'm talking to you!" Wonder how many times I said that to my daughter? She eventually got it.

 

[freethinker]

Most of the points in this thread are valid relative to situations at hand.

Gadfly is relating what value he got from TR's but I don't see that he is promoting it or minimizing the potential destructiveness of it's use.

I don't think he is even saying that the drills are correctly designed and I know he doesn't think much of Scientology.

Many things can be used contructively and destructively.

You can get some benefit from auditing from an auditor who wants to really help you sort things out.

But auditing can be used to really fuck you up.

It's like guns, it's the intent behind the use and the stability of the user and what for.

And then there's the staff member trying to figure out what he's doing wrong because his life is such a mess, and a nice and helpful non-scio guy tries to get through to him. The scientologist keeps his TRs in because he know that the wog is full of shit.

If you think about it, bull baiting is designed to tune out entheta. It may be helpful in some situation, but overall it's a bad thing. Just me 2 cents.

 

[clamicide]

And then there's the staff member trying to figure out what he's doing wrong because his life is such a mess, and a nice and helpful non-scio guy tries to get through to him. The scientologist keeps his TRs in because he know that the wog is full of shit.

If you think about it, bull baiting is designed to tune out entheta. It may be helpful in some situation, but overall it's a bad thing. Just me 2 cents.

Wow. And, in retrospect, reading that, I am reminded of one point where the TRs might have kept me alive. Went to pick up a friend who was epileptic, so could not drive and also had nowhere to go, when his roomie went off on a fucking meth binge and was being totally nutzoid. I was greeted at the door with a big-ass gun pointed at my head, and as I learned later...there was a bullet in the chamber. He was looking for any excuse to use it...didn't give him any cuz I had me my TRs. My friend was freaked out that I showed up and brought him back to my place and didn't set the guy off.

So, yeah...hell, maybe I'd be dead if I didn't have TRs. Well, maybe I wouldn't have even gone in to grab my friend...but, for the rest of my life? They fucked me up. It hurts to admit that. I don't quite get those who just bash the living hell out of those of us who just gotta admit that......yeah, it was pretty much detrimental to us.

Hell, I WANT TO BELIEVE I GOT MORE GOOD OUT OF IT THAN I DID. It'd make it so much easier not to beat the living shit out of myself for becoming so brainwashed. It's fucking hard to go "omg, that too, was also fucked up.' I had such stellar wins it was insane...but...sorry...I got fucked up in the cult. Happy for you (generic) if it didn't happen to you...and it's HARD to see that a lot of those stellar wins were.....just......yeah.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Also, I NEVER called myself a "Scientologist" even while in the Sea Org.

Yes, I knew that and wasn't directing my comment at YOU.

 

[Captain Koolaid]

Hell, I WANT TO BELIEVE I GOT MORE GOOD OUT OF IT THAN I DID. It'd make it so much easier not to beat the living shit out of myself for becoming so brainwashed. It's fucking hard to go "omg, that too, was also fucked up.' I had such stellar wins it was insane...but...sorry...I got fucked up in the cult. Happy for you (generic) if it didn't happen to you...and it's HARD to see that a lot of those stellar wins were.....just......yeah.

That's only natural. Funny story: When the DVD was introduced, I, after much deliberation, bought a VCR. Because the VCR tapes were all dropping in price. Never occurred to me that old technology tends to get phased out. I had always assumed I was so smart, having an M.A. and all. I did manage to convince myself that I still saved a lot of money by assuming that I would've bought all those VCR movies on DVD for an exorbitant amount of money, but eventually I had to admit what a waste of money that had been.

So given what Scientologists invest, it's completely understandable to look for the positive aspects, but sooner or later facts become facts, and isn't it also somekind of relief to let it go?

 

[Gadfly]

Yes, I knew that and wasn't directing my comment at YOU.

And, as funny as it might sound, I actually thought to rewrite that one line, to reduce the apparent exaggeration of the word "NEVER", because I thought that you might assume that I took it that way - as a reaction to what you said!

All is cool. I didn't put it there as any sort of "defense", but instead because I had stated that exactly in the same way in the thread I was referring you to, and was lazily tying that idea into my other post. Granted, I could have done it better.

 

[Student of Trinity]

I would be very skeptical about whether any exterior experience really involved anything physically leaving the body, and whether the 360° perception was actually accurate, seeing things you couldn't see with your eyes.

I'm not skeptical at all about the subjective experience, though. I've never had any like it, but I know that lots of people do. It sounds wonderful, and fascinating. And it's probably not just a useless thrill. It's probably a symptom of something worthwhile happening in the mind or brain. At the very least it's an eye-opener about how limited our normal perceptions are. We don't actually see all around, but in principle the information is there, in the light that bounces around all around us. We really see very little of what there is to be seen.

But here is the thing I find most problematic in sorting out good and bad in Scientology. What do the good parts really mean? For instance, is going exterior "just" a subjective experience — a kind of hallucination, even? Or is it the hard proof, sought for ages, that we are spiritual beings (whatever that means), capable of survival and action beyond the limits of our bodies?

Hubbard and the Church he founded would seem to really push the second interpretation. And they seem to push similarly big interpretations of a lot of less spectacular early "wins", too. For them, it's not enough to have dug up a nugget. It has to be first sign of the mother lode.

In fact, I'm afraid, I think there just was and is no mother lode in Scientology. The scratch-and-win ticket gets the instant prize — maybe it's $10,000, or maybe it's just an order of fries — but it doesn't win the jackpot. It doesn't get you any closer to winning it. For the big draw, it's just another losing ticket.

How viable is Scientology without the claim to the mother lode, the big jackpot (Clear, OT, the whole big deal)? Put together those comm course drills, and a little "guide to going exterior", but don't pretend it's the tip of any iceberg. Don't pretend it's going anywhere else at all. How much would that be worth? An order of fries? Ten grand? A whole new way of life? An intriguing hobby?

 

[Bill]

<snip>
The Captain FSO, Ron Norton, walked into where I was sitting, sat down with Jon Lundeen, the FLB Finance Director, and he started grilling me. I can guarantee that I was in NO WAY an "obedient slave". And, I did very much apply what I learned in TR Bull Baiting, and calmly sat there confronting, and fielding his tosses at me.

He asked me if I was routing out. I told him that I can't discuss it and he needed to talk to HCO. He got up, slammed a book down hard on my desk, and yelled at me, "if you leave staff, I will make sure that you NEVER can do upper level services anywhere, not EVER". He told me, "I can see your case, I have that ability being on NOTs, and you are wired up tight like the lights of New York City". He went on and on for awhile, and he was VERY MUCH "in my face".

I didn't answer. I remained calm, "kept my TRs in", heard what he said, and ignored him on the inside.
<snip>

That's good, and probably a great example of "using TRs". But the point made by others, and the point made by your post, is that TRs are not about communication. TRs are all about control.

TRs are used to control yourself and control others. Obviously, you were not communicating with the captain at all.

TRs are pretty good for control but incredibly horrible for communication.

I remember, after Scientology, having to learn how to react normally to what others were saying. At first it was fake: "How should I react to what they just said? OK, <appropriate reaction>". Later, I recovered from Scientology's indoctrination and was able to enjoy a normal conversation.


It is such a crime that Scientology claims that the TRs are "all about communication". It creates robotic-acting people who believe they are "perfect communicators" but who haven't a clue and are quite creepy to try to talk to.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I thought that you might assume that I took it that way - as a reaction to what you said!

No, didn't think you did take it that way. Just wanted to be sure.

And yeah, I took a look at the other thread you mentioned, and there's some good stuff in there.

 

[Captain Koolaid]

That's good, and probably a great example of "using TRs". But the point made by others, and the point made by your post, is that TRs are not about communication. TRs are all about control.

TRs are used to control yourself and control others. Obviously, you were not communicating with the captain at all.

TRs are pretty good for control but incredibly horrible for communication.

I remember, after Scientology, having to learn how to react normally to what others were saying. At first it was fake: "How should I react to what they just said? OK, <appropriate reaction>". Later, I recovered from Scientology's indoctrination and was able to enjoy a normal conversation.


It is such a crime that Scientology claims that the TRs are "all about communication". It creates robotic-acting people who believe they are "perfect communicators" but who haven't a clue and are quite creepy to try to talk to.

+1

Incidentally your latest post deals with this issue "How to talk to a Scientologist". Another good one, btw, and it demonstrates what Scientology does to a person's communicating skills.

 

[SomeGuy]

Depends on the situation. Someone screaming like a banshee in your face and not making any sense is no need to react.

How often does this happen? Has it actually ever happened to you that a stranger would come up to you and do this? The fight or flight response is there for a reason. I guess this was part of hubbards reactive mind is evil mental conditioning.

+1

Incidentally your latest post deals with this issue "How to talk to a Scientologist". Another good one, btw, and it demonstrates what Scientology does to a person's communicating skills.

I agree and from seeing how those TR drills go I would say they seem like an exercise in conditioning a group of people to respond the exact same way to the exact same situation. I think that's the definition of a cult right there

 

[Gadfly]

Wow. And, in retrospect, reading that, I am reminded of one point where the TRs might have kept me alive. Went to pick up a friend who was epileptic, so could not drive and also had nowhere to go, when his roomie went off on a fucking meth binge and was being totally nutzoid. I was greeted at the door with a big-ass gun pointed at my head, and as I learned later...there was a bullet in the chamber. He was looking for any excuse to use it...didn't give him any cuz I had me my TRs. My friend was freaked out that I showed up and brought him back to my place and didn't set the guy off.

So, yeah...hell, maybe I'd be dead if I didn't have TRs. Well, maybe I wouldn't have even gone in to grab my friend...but, for the rest of my life? They fucked me up. It hurts to admit that. I don't quite get those who just bash the living hell out of those of us who just gotta admit that......yeah, it was pretty much detrimental to us.

Hell, I WANT TO BELIEVE I GOT MORE GOOD OUT OF IT THAN I DID. It'd make it so much easier not to beat the living shit out of myself for becoming so brainwashed. It's fucking hard to go "omg, that too, was also fucked up.' I had such stellar wins it was insane...but...sorry...I got fucked up in the cult. Happy for you (generic) if it didn't happen to you...and it's HARD to see that a lot of those stellar wins were.....just......yeah.

The largest thing I gained from my experiences with Scientology, and this far overshadows EVERYTHING else, is seeing up close and learning how incredibly far people can go in terms of accepting a belief system, become severely brainwashed, not KNOW that they are severely brainwashed, and also using the content of their brainwashing to justify crazy actions such as paying huge amounts of money, hurting innocent people, etc. I was lucky because I noticed that aspect quite early on, and somehow managed to retain my ability to NOT follow the herd mentality while involved with all of the BS. Even while "in", I was still more "out".

Learning how seemingly decent people can become so fanatical is also part of that.

How people can accept and adopt a belief system, and forever after NEVER be able to see or understand ANYTHING outside of THAT context. THAT really annoyed me especially since Scn was touted as a "path to freedom" and "route to increased perception and understanding". NOT!

I have said before that if I had to do it all over again, I probably would (assuming I was pretty much the same person as I was back then). But, NOT because of any of the auditing or exterior stuff or anything else. I actually don't place much value or ANY desire for "exterior with full perception". I would do it all over to again learn 1) how NASTY people can really be, 2) how much of a liar and con people can really be, 3) how innocent people can be tricked, 4) how decent people can come to do not-so-decent things, and 5) how people can get SO WEIRD accepting and adopting a "belief system". I feel pretty "scam-proof" after my involvement with Scn.

I feel that I was very lucky to have had a few MAJOR great experiences. But really, if I hadn't had them, I would have probably gotten out much SOONER!

But, they weren't planned, they weren't directly caused as the anticipated result of any specific Scn action (they just "happened"), and WHAT caused them and WHAT THEY MEANT are still unknown - other than opinion and proclivity towards a certain explanation. I pretty much DON'T interpret them. For all I know, when I went "exterior with full perception", my brain formed a temorary magnetic field that enabled a locus of energy to exist a foot in front of my face, and that then transmitted that information to my "optic nerve" or related sight center. I told that to a Scn friend of mine a few years after it happened. I managed to stay somewhat "open" and "skeptical". So, I "experienced" being "out of my body"? Maybe. Who knows? I don't. Was it evidence that I "am a spirit"? Maybe. Again, I don't know, and I care so little about that these days, that I don't at all need to "understand". But, it IS the kind of experience that can make you stick with something longer than you should have or might have otherwise. THAT seems to be its value within Hubbard's framework.

In all honesty, I would never personally spend any time trying to pick out the few bits of useful stuff from the large bag of shit that is organized KSW Scientology. It is setup as a con, and it operates as a con. People should be warned away from it. There is no amount of possible "good" or "benefit" that would justify allowing ANY person to enter that farce of a "road to freedom".

What I described was part of the "bait". People need to see THAT. That something flashy, that something that can make you feel REAL good, can exist as BAIT and act to SUCKER you into a much more lethal and dangerous TRAP. Some small bits might have some value if re-examined, rewritten and reorganized in some OTHER context, but within the context of Hubbard's paradigm, it is always PURE DESTRUCTION.

 

[clamicide]

You know Gads, for some reason, I kind of get the feeling that you have massive disdain for those of us who 'fell for it'..... Believe it or not, I'm not stupid, but, yeah....I was a total clam. I'm wondering where you are coming from...if, you do, indeed, feel that way.

 

[uniquemand]

That's good, and probably a great example of "using TRs". But the point made by others, and the point made by your post, is that TRs are not about communication. TRs are all about control.

TRs are used to control yourself and control others. Obviously, you were not communicating with the captain at all.

TRs are pretty good for control but incredibly horrible for communication.

I remember, after Scientology, having to learn how to react normally to what others were saying. At first it was fake: "How should I react to what they just said? OK, <appropriate reaction>". Later, I recovered from Scientology's indoctrination and was able to enjoy a normal conversation.


It is such a crime that Scientology claims that the TRs are "all about communication". It creates robotic-acting people who believe they are "perfect communicators" but who haven't a clue and are quite creepy to try to talk to.

It's certainly true that TRs are used to draw people out. The further along the TRs trail you go, the more manipulative they are. This is not the case when you are in session, because the other person wants to have their issue explored, to get it done, etc. In normal life, this is invasive. I think TRs 0-2 are fine for normal conversation, or for normal circumstances. 2 1/2 - 4 are session only, or when a person is needing to really share something, perhaps, not in session. All TRs over 4 are, IMO, enforcement and domination efforts that have no place in therapeutic environments, or sometimes anywhere other than jail.

 

[Gadfly]

You know Gads, for some reason, I kind of get the feeling that you have massive disdain for those of us who 'fell for it'..... Believe it or not, I'm not stupid, but, yeah....I was a total clam. I'm wondering where you are coming from...if, you do, indeed, feel that way.

No, in all honesty, I don't feel that at all. Hubbard was a MASTER con artist. He takes advantage of decent people. The Church of Scientology sucks in, uses up, and then wastes decent people. I never felt "disdain" - I felt sad for what I saw. Like how anyone feels when they see another being taken advantage of or abused. It tore at my soul when I came to realize how much the dream and claim of Scn were in severe contradiction with reality - granted that happened all along in bits and pieces . It broke down and shattered my trust, that such could be done by a person (Hubbard & the C of S) to other living people. It HURT when I saw through the illusion, and especially moreso, because I saw, first that Hubbard had done his job well at fixing his ideas into the minds of his followers, and second, that I easily saw that the ONLY result could be that this pretense of a Church would soon get rid of me too as soon as I voiced what I clearly saw. It was like I was watching a sad cartoon drama.

I was one of these people who had friends and family in Scientology. I "walked on eggshells" for a long time to not disrupt those relationships - as I am sure many others did and do. Cripes, I got friends and my own wife to join the Sea Org, and then I left, slowly realizing that I never should have done this.

I couldn't "understand" how so many couldn't and didn't see through so much of the nonsense after a certain point. But also, I very much understood the INTENSE PRESSURES involved. I stayed in because of various pressures.

I have been tricked in my own way, in other ways in life, I have made MAJOR mistakes, and having done so a few times to EXTREME DEGREES, I judge nobody. We each can and do step in the pooh-pooh. We often don't think we are doing so as we do it, but we each can do it in our own way.

I might have been good at a few things, but I was also NOT good at some other things. It all balances out.

Also, I very much "fell for it" enough to waste much time and energy. I ended up with a family that never "worked" since my wife stayed in the Sea Org (and died there). My son remains disconnected still for 10 years. My daughter never got as good of an education as she would have otherwise. I fell for it enough that it has "left its mark", though up until a few moments ago, I never really looked at it as such.

So, while I may appear to have "escaped" some aspect of it, I did not do so well in other regards.

If there is any disdain at all, it is for those who created and continue the con - Hubbard and the Sea Org management.

 

[clamicide]

No, in all honesty, I don't feel that at all. Hubbard was a MASTER con artist. He takes advantage of decent people. The Church of Scientology sucks in, uses up, and then wastes decent people. I never felt "disdain" - I felt sad for what I saw. Like how anyone feels when they see anyone being taken advantage of or abused.

I couldn't "understand" how so many couldn't and didn't see through so much of the nonsense after a certain point. But also, I very much understood the INTENSE PRESSURES involved. I stayed in because of various pressures.

I have been tricked in my own way, in other ways in life, I have made MAJOR mistakes, and having done so a few times to EXTREME DEGREES, I judge nobody. We each can and do step in the pooh-pooh. We often don't think we are doing so as we do it, but we each can do it in our own way.

I might have been good at a few things, but I was also NOT good at some other things. It all balances out.

Also, I very much "fell for it" enough to waste much time and energy. I ended up with a family that never "worked" since my wife stayed in the Sea Org (and died there). My son remains disconnected still for 10 years. My daughter never got as good of an education as she would have otherwise. I fell for it enough that it has "left its mark", though up until a few moments ago, I never really looked at it as such.

So, while I may appear to have "escaped" some aspect of it, I did not do so well in other regards.

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate the reply. It took a lot of looking at social psychology and other stuff where I was finally 'ok' with the fact that I got sucked in. I just have felt at times like you felt we who went down the line were complete idiots. And it's just hard, because I DID sell myself out time and time again because something didn't feel right... and some of your posts just trigger the hell out of that... but, every time I look back.......yeah, I WAS that fucked up, so that WAS the only thing I could do at the time. I just don't know if someone who escaped without being brainwashed can understand what us who DID wind up brainwashed (thought control being the more modern definition) went through. And, I can sometimes just go nuts when I see stuff that seems to imply that those of us who DID go through this were weak, or stupid, or whatever... I was totally fine with that...was willing to place myself in that category until I started a hell of a lot of research. and I went...omfg...........I technically have a genius IQ, and nah, I don't hold stock in that kind of !$$@, but I do drag it out now when I am talking to folks about the cult who say that only idiots fall or it. I get a lot of dropped jaws on it. Thought once or twice about joining MENSA after I've been out...but, they mostly seemed to be a bunch of wankers...the ONLY reason I'd sign up would be to prove that folks with an IQ above a potato are able to be fooled by a cult. Funny, I didn't join when first recommended, as it felt "cult-like", and yet I became a clam....just remembering that as I type this.

And, I also have a son who is disconnected. It sucks. Feel for ya. Mother's Day is always a dual-edged sword. My son who is out is my best friend, and yet..... my son and I both know someone is missing when he takes me out for the day. Hugs to you on this Father's Day.