ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Another way to view Scientology

Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by SHUKex, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    They aren't accusing you of koolaid drinking they are accusing you of praising the very ideology that caused people to neglect your son's illness.
  2. Dave B.

    Dave B. Maximus Ultimus Mostimus

    If you keep her locked up in a secret location... evidently, as long as you want it to.
  3. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Here's my post once again with the question(s)[sup].[/sup]
  4. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I was not subjected to any fraudulent marketing personally Pits. I was sold training and an e-meter both of which were delivered according to specification and I was then and am now very pleased with the product.

    It is my considered belief however that reges often engage in fraudulent marketing techniques. I particularly dislike the practice, recommended in green and white above Ron's signature and presumed to have been authored by him, of stringing PC's out who aren't satisfied with the results of auditing which has been delivered by telling them their difficulties are handled on a higher level.

    There are other techniques of both promotion and marketing which are sleazy and manipulative and fraudulent as well with which I was less than pleased while active...


    the hole at that time had a donut around it
  5. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Once again you gave me an answer to a question I didn't ask.

    It looks as though you passed the Scientology drills that make others think you've answered their questions without having done so.

    My inquiry has ZERO to do with your personal experience, unless you got trained up to a level in which you could take customers up through the promised State of Clear on a regular basis. If you did, how many of them attained all of the abilities promised by Hubbard (in his descriptions of a Clear)?

    I would guess your answer to that would be ZERO, as you already indicated:
    Any auditor who purchased Scientology training, with the understanding that he'd be able to Clear people at the end of his training certainly WAS subjected to fraudulent marketing practices.

    Any staff member who joined staff with the understanding that "Clearing the planet" was a major objective was fraudulently recruited as well, because in order to "clear the planet" you've got to be able to clear a single individual, and there's no evidence that that accomplishment has ever been achieved or ever will be achieved.

    I'm just using the State of Clear as an example here of fraudulent marketing, but there's many other promised abilities as well which have been sold to customers who have paid top dollar for them, but they're rarely if ever achieved.

    Outside of the Scientology bubble, when you intentionally sell products and services which you KNOW you don't have the ability to deliver, that's called "fraud". But in Scientology you blame the customer for not getting the promised results. He's PTS Type I, II, III, A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H, I, J, or he's out-ruds, has misunderstood words, false data, or did something out-gradient, or the customer is told that his issue he wants addressed will be handled on the next level, or somewhere higher on the "bridge", or one of a number of other reasons. The common denominator being that nothing is ever wrong with the "tech", it is always something that the customer is responsible for.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
    phenomanon likes this.
  6. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    As it happens George, I have all along been reticent about recounting the tragedy of my son Ian's death for the simple reason that his wrongful death was a hate crime committed by his stepfather who has a deep dark hatred of Scientology, CoS, auditing, dianetics, L Ron Hubbard, niggers, niggerlovers and me personally. His name is James Allen and he met the mother of our sons when they were both seniors in a parochial high school in Philadelphia in 1965. He fell straight in love with her and wanted to marry her. She had already committed to enter a convent, which she did. She left before taking final vows and over the next three years or so she thrice agreed to marry him and then thrice broke it off. The last time her younger brother, Greg was visiting home from FCDC and got her to come down with him and join staff. This had to be March of 1971 because when she found a nickel and two pennies in her first pay envelope she at first thought it was an April Fool's joke. "Jimmy" came down to FCDC and she got him to do the HAS Course, which he despised and he tried to get her to leave and go back with him. She refused.

    After training as an auditor in SF I showed up in DC in September '72 did the staff statuses 0-2 and was posted as Staff staff auditor...

    to be continued...
  7. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Co$ suxxx Pitsy; Co$$$ SUXXX CHANCROUS DONKEY DICK!!!

    and the same goes for the marketing techniques which involve more serious offenses than hype e.g. telling people to max out credit cards and declare bankruptcy.

    But what I got out of the study and practice of auditing doesn't suck. As a matter of fact not only did I learn how to bring exquisite and profound (fully exterior with perception) relief to my lifelong best friend it enabled me to use his illness to do independent cancer research which led to a new blood test greatly facilitating early detection which has probably already spared thousands of lives.
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'll get back to my tale but first...

    Ahh, George, I do like people who add something to the discussion.


    I've been here since 2010 and I don't recall seeing this highly pertinent word.

    There is the "kool aid" which might be beyond precise definition but loosely might be thought the flammajamma rhetoric, the falsehoods and such but then there is the ideology and as is implicit in your own post the ideology of it i of much more substance.

    I suppose I was something of an ideologue during The Cold War and I'm grateful we kept NATO and the Warsaw Pact engaged in a contest of ideologies. And I can be somewhat discomfitted, and never more so than the current administration, at being something of a GOP ideologue..,

    But I am not now and have never been a Hubbardian ideologue and it was necessary for me to rope-a-dope while active because of it and I can point straight at square one of the dance; right there at the end of DMSMH when Hubbard floats the idea of a future society where "only clears have civil rights"


    Civil rights accrue to the citizen at conception and begin to expand while in the womb when the mother is added to the list of those who may not legally murder him or her and these rights may then only be suspended or revoked by due process of law.

    Veda is particularly fond of posting the passage about lepers beggars and Venezuelan dictators. This was the next item I redlined in my studies and I was surprised to discover how much these passages and others like them were part of the very DNA of the ideology of the endeavour.

    The Bill of Rights my comb and The Bible my scissors for styling Elron's shaggy mane
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Then one Saturday evening in November I had finished my auditing for the day and went looking for something to read. I walked into the Dist Sec's office and pulled a Volume Zero off the shelf; not exactly Jacqueline Suzanne much less Hemingway but my nose wasn't stuck in it for long. Kathleen Mary Theresa Ann Wilhere, the former Sister Mary Hugh Gregory was talking on the phone, as I would later learn, to her high school boyfriend Jimmy Allen. I wasn't paying attention but in hindsight I suspect her TR-1 was pointed at me as much as he when she said "I'm tired of putting up with your bank! That's it between us! Forever." She hung up the phone, turned to me and asked "You want to go for a walk?"

    If only I could have said "I just started reading 'For Whom The Bell Tolls' and I can't put it down...
  10. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Whatever I might have thought of previous posts of yours, with those few bolded words you have completely blown whatever credibility you might have had, in fact I am starting to think you are seriously deluded my friend!
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    Tanchi likes this.
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron


    As it happens, I have at times suffered from severe and debilitating delusion, most particularly for several months in 1975. But that excruciating experience was itself not entirely delusional and several significant events in my life since are quite questionable e.g. I have stated that I commandeered six live nuclear weapons from Minot AFB in late August of 2007. Those live nukes did in fact move which can be verified on line. That they moved by my command cannot be verified but I can, speaking honestly and candidly, weave a somewhat alluring tale of locking horns with General Petraeus who testified to Congress in favor of maintaining troop levels in Iraq on Sep 15 and my report delivered to President Bush's entourage when he flew out to Bellevue Washington calling for phased but complete withdrawal of American ground troops. As can be verified major withdrawals began shortly thereafter and continued until all our boots on the ground came out. As far the nukes are concerned the Big Boys just don't pay much attention to ya unless ya slam a six shooter down on the table (with an amiable grin so they understand it's a friendly discussion, of course)

    Well Strats, anyone who wouldn't suspect me of either perfidious prevarication or moonmad lunacy for putting this forward with a straight face is a dangerously gullible person


    As to my dear lifelong friend Billy Martin and my tale of tending him as he passed from this temporal plane it is hardhearted to call any of it delusion.

    I have posted that story more than once but I am willing to repeat it if you are unfamiliar with it...
  12. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    No thanks!
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Then I won't tell the story of it...


    The day after a body comm process had relieved him of a long time back pain he was taking a nap after lunch. I was sitting beside him and of a sudden was flooded by an incomparable and indescribable serenity which I thought surely to have something to do with my sleeping friend. I wondered if perhaps an angel were present to guide him into paradise...

    When he awoke I quickly asked "Were you dreaming?"

    He said with voice and visage of dazed wonder "I was in this room. I was in every part of this room"

    For rest of that day though his dessicated body was capable of little motion he was in the most amazing good spirits; warm, easy going, gentle mirth.

    Does this smack of delusion Strats?
  14. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    I understand your problem here. You don't understand science, evidence, proof, correlation vs. causation, and how other people actually cause things that you are only observing (and wishing).

    Saying your silly claim "can be verified" in that way is NOT verification in any sense of the word!

    I do not know why your education never included science, logic and basic thinking but I am sorry for that.
  15. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm well versed in scientific method Bill

    I have given brief account of my actions to engineer the withdrawal of troops from Iraq and there is more extensive material in other posts. The fact that those troop withdrawals began in the Autumn of 2007 can be verified as can the fact that a half dozen live nukes came off the rack.

    Whether or not my personal action was in any way influential might be verifiable but only with access to classified material.

    If you examine the syntax and semantics of my statement you will find I only stated the availability of such verification as is public knowledge.

    I did not mean to imply this verifies my personal significance

    Nor do I wish for gullible readers to infer such verification and I am in fact personally grateful to you for this post which should disabuse any who derived such inference

    Thank you chum and keep up the good work
  16. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    Are you in the Haight right now?
  17. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I am.

    Park Branch Library, 1833 Page Street o cherished and exalted Phenomama...
  18. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

  19. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    O Stratsie Bay-beee!!!

    Blow in my ear and I'll follow you anywhere...
  20. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    I like that..."Phenomama"
    Take care CP.