Free to shine
Shiny & Free
Once and ttamaad - geez you guys...
Thanks...just thanks.
Thanks...just thanks.
ANZO Sea Org Abortions
- Thread starter Fabian Marcabian
- Start date
Once bitten
Patron Meritorious
Once and ttamaad - geez you guys...
Thanks...just thanks.
Yeah. I know.
ttamaad
Silver Meritorious Patron
In the end, it was such an easy decision. Despite the prospect of losing contact with so many good people, for my sanity, our sanity, the decision wasn't hard to make...
ttamaad
Silver Meritorious Patron
I'll second that!!!!
Fabian Marcabian
Patron
Wow, Genny and Bill, what a story!!! I am so glad you told it. I knew about the scene in the SO in the late 80's and since, but not this. I had no idea that this was going on in Class IV orgs in the early 80's. Ordered to have an abortion because you didn't CSW to get pregnant! How bloody outrageous is that!!! These guys seem to have no clue about decent behavior or human rights. Just none!
You are one of the lucky ones really. I am so glad you have your son. Many, many staff and ex staff are childless today because of these draconian rules about the slaves not allowed to have babies. I must admit, I was shocked when I first heard the stories from pregnant SO members going to Class IV orgs. And even more shocked when they told me that some SO members had actually had the abortions! At the time I thought that it would be the downfall of Scientology. I actually still think that. Genny, you are right. OSA should be afraid of what has come out on this board today. Very afraid.
You are one of the lucky ones really. I am so glad you have your son. Many, many staff and ex staff are childless today because of these draconian rules about the slaves not allowed to have babies. I must admit, I was shocked when I first heard the stories from pregnant SO members going to Class IV orgs. And even more shocked when they told me that some SO members had actually had the abortions! At the time I thought that it would be the downfall of Scientology. I actually still think that. Genny, you are right. OSA should be afraid of what has come out on this board today. Very afraid.
Once bitten
Patron Meritorious
Sorry, it's a bit off-thread, but....
This has brought back lots of memories that I had shut out, and it's reminded me of this lady Eileen or Elaine who was seeing Trevor Eade. She lived at our flat for a while with him. She committed suicide when she was told to handle or disconnect from her Salvation Army family, but I suddenly had a memory that she may have been pregnant.
Does anyone remember this? I see that Trevor is still well and truly indoctrinated into the cult, as he is on the list as someone who gave very generously to the ideal org in Sydney, and he will remember how her suicide was covered up and her parents were never ever told why she committed suicide. The org wanted all scn books and paraphenalia removed from the flat, and we were not to speak to anyone about her suicide. Sadly, her parents would never have been given closure.
Bill, if you've still got those photos from when we were in Sydney, there is probably a photo of her amongst them. I recall there was a photo of her and Trevor in their kaftans. (yes, kaftans)
It would be great to get this suicide out in the open and her parents located and given closure, even though it was over 25 years ago. I'll bet the parents are still wondering what their girl would be doing had she still been alive, and whether there would have been grandchildren etc.
I know I would be.
This has brought back lots of memories that I had shut out, and it's reminded me of this lady Eileen or Elaine who was seeing Trevor Eade. She lived at our flat for a while with him. She committed suicide when she was told to handle or disconnect from her Salvation Army family, but I suddenly had a memory that she may have been pregnant.
Does anyone remember this? I see that Trevor is still well and truly indoctrinated into the cult, as he is on the list as someone who gave very generously to the ideal org in Sydney, and he will remember how her suicide was covered up and her parents were never ever told why she committed suicide. The org wanted all scn books and paraphenalia removed from the flat, and we were not to speak to anyone about her suicide. Sadly, her parents would never have been given closure.
Bill, if you've still got those photos from when we were in Sydney, there is probably a photo of her amongst them. I recall there was a photo of her and Trevor in their kaftans. (yes, kaftans)
It would be great to get this suicide out in the open and her parents located and given closure, even though it was over 25 years ago. I'll bet the parents are still wondering what their girl would be doing had she still been alive, and whether there would have been grandchildren etc.
I know I would be.
ttamaad
Silver Meritorious Patron
Ceedia moved this over to the Crimes thread and I have answered there
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=165441#post165441
but briefly, yes I do have the pic of her and yes she committed suicide A young girl surviving in life until she ran into scn, got into a relationship with a snr exec (tech sec at the time, if I remember rightly) and within weeks, dead
everfree
Patron Meritorious
Abortions in the SO are one of the most sordid aspects of CofS.
An extended family member was in the SO at PAC for around 10 years. She went in as a green Scnist.
After she'd been in for several years she got pregnant. She wanted kids badly and she was so excited as she called her family to tell them the good news. A couple weeks later she called again, crying inconsolably. She had been sent to ethics for getting pregnant and been "made to see "that it was out-ethics for her to have a child because the fate of every man, woman and child in the entire universe hangs on what they do in Scn, and that she would have to leave the SO if she had a baby which would make her a degraded being so she'd had an abortion.
She called and cried every day for weeks.
As the years went by, she had several more abortions. But she always wanted to have kids. Finally she got pregnant again a couple years ago. This time she stood up to the pressure and both her and her husband left the SO together. Nowadays when an SO member leaves they are at least given $500, which hasn't always been the case. However, I was told they only got $500 between them when they left so they were pretty desperate, neither had jobs or a place to live.
No one nearby had room for them both so hubby went and lived with his folks while he worked out a job while she stayed with her family. Since she had had so many previous abortions she was a high risk pregnancy so was put on bed rest and couldn't work. Finally after several months hubby worked out a job and a place for them both to stay, they moved in together, baby was brought to term and born! It was a horrendous experience and struggle for all involved, but at least it turned out well - despite the CofS, not because of it.
An extended family member was in the SO at PAC for around 10 years. She went in as a green Scnist.
After she'd been in for several years she got pregnant. She wanted kids badly and she was so excited as she called her family to tell them the good news. A couple weeks later she called again, crying inconsolably. She had been sent to ethics for getting pregnant and been "made to see "that it was out-ethics for her to have a child because the fate of every man, woman and child in the entire universe hangs on what they do in Scn, and that she would have to leave the SO if she had a baby which would make her a degraded being so she'd had an abortion.
She called and cried every day for weeks.
As the years went by, she had several more abortions. But she always wanted to have kids. Finally she got pregnant again a couple years ago. This time she stood up to the pressure and both her and her husband left the SO together. Nowadays when an SO member leaves they are at least given $500, which hasn't always been the case. However, I was told they only got $500 between them when they left so they were pretty desperate, neither had jobs or a place to live.
No one nearby had room for them both so hubby went and lived with his folks while he worked out a job while she stayed with her family. Since she had had so many previous abortions she was a high risk pregnancy so was put on bed rest and couldn't work. Finally after several months hubby worked out a job and a place for them both to stay, they moved in together, baby was brought to term and born! It was a horrendous experience and struggle for all involved, but at least it turned out well - despite the CofS, not because of it.
AnonyMary
Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
So sorry to read you went through that Ceedia.....
So glad you have been able to move as you have on from that and have the family you deserve. You are so fortunate that you had your sister around to help you. You could have become quite ill if you had not gotten to a hospital.
In Scientology, staff & S O members become jaded from the start. They become so poressured, so stat oriented that a loss or the need to grieve a death.. even essential needs like caring for ones family take a back seat to the org's purposes that have been drilled into them. Hitler knew how to run down the minds of his followers, many who were god people at the start, to the point where they followed his orders without conscience.
The abortion issue in the SO is so wrong, so immoral and debasing for a woman and yet it goes on. It's all part of the programming and so avoidable if only people would keep speaking up, despite the perceived potential consequences. So sorry your pregnancy and desires ended up in a loss despite your persistence. The stress on you to abort must have been terrible.
Mary
It was toward the end of '82. I was a TTC graduate and had been full time staff C/S for about a year, before replacing the Qual Sec - I was at this time, newly on post as Qual Sec and holding the staff C/S post 'from above' (the load of staff C/S had diminshed greatly due to staff 'rip off's' from up lines).
I discovered that I was pregnant in the October. Shykes - it wasn't planned, and it didn't fit into the scheme of things (I had gone off the pill a few years earlier, and being ignorant about the fact that sperm can live for 'days' in some cases - I didn't use the diaphram at times that I should have).
Abortion wasn't an option for me. I knew that me being pregnant would go down like a lead balloon, so besides talking to my hubby about it, I kept my lips sealed for a while!
Then I made it known. It was horrible! I had around six different interviews with senior execs, who tried to convince me to have an abortion. I went to ethics about three times, and to cramming a few times for FDSing as obviously my 'held down seven' was due to me being a good little 'Catholic' girl!
It was shoved in my face that the org had invested all this time and money training me, and that now I was going to throw it all away. It was also shoved in my face, that we had already 'lost' two C/ses, and the other C/S in the org (Genny my bridesmaid who was about 5 months at the time), was already having a baby and me having one, just wasn't an option.
I pointed out to them, that I had audited and/or C/Sed for SO crew and staff who were forced to have abortions, and that under no circumstances was I going to subject myself to the kind of 'charge' that they had, by submitting and having an abortion. These people 'handling' me, then assigned the 'mental charge' associated with the forced abortions, to similar brainwashing from the catholics. The whole fiasco and guilt trip was a mind fuck, and it continued until the point that I was over three months, and an abortion was no longer an option.
A little while after this, I started 'bleeding'. I didn't know what this was about. I asked the older female execs in the org about it, and all three said it was normal and not to worry about it. Then it got heavier - the advice was to use a 'pad' (sorry boys!). I suggested that maybe I should go and see the doctor, but I wasn't given 'permission' to. I was told that everything was OK and 'normal', and that there was no reason to worry. I trusted these people, and was so naive at the time about such things, that I took what they said on board, and plodded on.
I kept 'bleeding'. On new years eve, I started to get 'pains' (which after having three kids since, I can now label as labour pains). I saw the HAS and told her. She saw the CO and the Tech Sec about it. They told me not to be case on post, to see the day out, and then go home and rest over the weekend.
Being ignorant to what was going on, I stayed on post and then after post went home. I was bleeding profusely, but being a total 'dummy' in the area - I didn't realize that I was losing body blood through my uterus! My hubby called my sister in-law who was a nurse, and when she saw me, she got me straight to hospital. I went on a drip, had a D and C under a general aneasthetic, and all was then well - obviously though, I had lost the baby.
I went back onto post on the Monday, and nothing more was mentioned about my pregnancy that conveniently went away!
I have no upset on it now - I had three sons soon afterward in '86, '87 and '89. We have wonderful sons and a great family, and I wouldn't swap exactly what we have for quids! However, at the time I was gutted, and at the time I sensed and/or could see the jubilation by too many about my loss, and that made things worse.
So glad you have been able to move as you have on from that and have the family you deserve. You are so fortunate that you had your sister around to help you. You could have become quite ill if you had not gotten to a hospital.
In Scientology, staff & S O members become jaded from the start. They become so poressured, so stat oriented that a loss or the need to grieve a death.. even essential needs like caring for ones family take a back seat to the org's purposes that have been drilled into them. Hitler knew how to run down the minds of his followers, many who were god people at the start, to the point where they followed his orders without conscience.
The abortion issue in the SO is so wrong, so immoral and debasing for a woman and yet it goes on. It's all part of the programming and so avoidable if only people would keep speaking up, despite the perceived potential consequences. So sorry your pregnancy and desires ended up in a loss despite your persistence. The stress on you to abort must have been terrible.
Mary
degraded being
Sponsor
There is a detail I am puzzled about.
Mike Ferris. Was he GO/OSA in OZ at some stage?
I know he is in NZ now and was there in the early 80s.
Mike Ferris. Was he GO/OSA in OZ at some stage?
I know he is in NZ now and was there in the early 80s.
klidov
Silver Meritorious Patron
It was toward the end of '82. I was a TTC graduate and had been full time staff C/S for about a year, before replacing the Qual Sec - I was at this time, newly on post as Qual Sec and holding the staff C/S post 'from above' (the load of staff C/S had diminshed greatly due to staff 'rip off's' from up lines).
I discovered that I was pregnant in the October. Shykes - it wasn't planned, and it didn't fit into the scheme of things (I had gone off the pill a few years earlier, and being ignorant about the fact that sperm can live for 'days' in some cases - I didn't use the diaphram at times that I should have).
Abortion wasn't an option for me. I knew that me being pregnant would go down like a lead balloon, so besides talking to my hubby about it, I kept my lips sealed for a while!
Then I made it known. It was horrible! I had around six different interviews with senior execs, who tried to convince me to have an abortion. I went to ethics about three times, and to cramming a few times for FDSing as obviously my 'held down seven' was due to me being a good little 'Catholic' girl!
It was shoved in my face that the org had invested all this time and money training me, and that now I was going to throw it all away. It was also shoved in my face, that we had already 'lost' two C/ses, and the other C/S in the org (Genny my bridesmaid who was about 5 months at the time), was already having a baby and me having one, just wasn't an option.
I pointed out to them, that I had audited and/or C/Sed for SO crew and staff who were forced to have abortions, and that under no circumstances was I going to subject myself to the kind of 'charge' that they had, by submitting and having an abortion. These people 'handling' me, then assigned the 'mental charge' associated with the forced abortions, to similar brainwashing from the catholics. The whole fiasco and guilt trip was a mind fuck, and it continued until the point that I was over three months, and an abortion was no longer an option.
A little while after this, I started 'bleeding'. I didn't know what this was about. I asked the older female execs in the org about it, and all three said it was normal and not to worry about it. Then it got heavier - the advice was to use a 'pad' (sorry boys!). I suggested that maybe I should go and see the doctor, but I wasn't given 'permission' to. I was told that everything was OK and 'normal', and that there was no reason to worry. I trusted these people, and was so naive at the time about such things, that I took what they said on board, and plodded on.
I kept 'bleeding'. On new years eve, I started to get 'pains' (which after having three kids since, I can now label as labour pains). I saw the HAS and told her. She saw the CO and the Tech Sec about it. They told me not to be case on post, to see the day out, and then go home and rest over the weekend.
Being ignorant to what was going on
I went back onto post on the Monday, and nothing more was mentioned about my pregnancy that conveniently went away!
I have no upset on it now - I had three sons soon afterward in '86, '87 and '89. We have wonderful sons and a great family, and I wouldn't swap exactly what we have for quids! However, at the time I was gutted, and at the time I sensed and/or could see the jubilation by too many about my loss, and that made things worse.
((hugs))
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
This is just monstrous, the way the CoS deals with people. I don’t know which makes me the angrier. The fact that they are so blatant in their hypocrisy and casually insisting that staff get abortions despite the fact that Hubbard rails against this, or the fact that they can be so inhuman.
How can any right-minded human being demand that someone gets an abortion, just because they wouldn’t be able to work for a while? These are not the actions of a sane and rational group.
This is what Hubbard says in ‘DMSMH’:
“A society which suppresses sex as evil and which is so aberrated that any member of it will attempt an abortion is a society which is dooming itself to ever-rising insanity.”
Seems to be describing the CoS pretty well to me.
I don’t know of any first-hand cases where staff were pressured to have an abortion. But, when I was in the Sea Org, I sat on a Comm Ev once where the person being ‘tried’ was charged with deliberately becoming pregnant and so no longer being eligible for the LRH Comm network. This was in 1986 just after the issue of children and the SO, which meant that anyone having children could only work in the outer orgs and not in management orgs.
We found her not guilty of this as there was no Hubbard reference on this being a crime. But the fact that someone was given a Comm Ev at all, shows the attitude towards staff having children.
Axiom142
How can any right-minded human being demand that someone gets an abortion, just because they wouldn’t be able to work for a while? These are not the actions of a sane and rational group.
This is what Hubbard says in ‘DMSMH’:
“A society which suppresses sex as evil and which is so aberrated that any member of it will attempt an abortion is a society which is dooming itself to ever-rising insanity.”
Seems to be describing the CoS pretty well to me.
I don’t know of any first-hand cases where staff were pressured to have an abortion. But, when I was in the Sea Org, I sat on a Comm Ev once where the person being ‘tried’ was charged with deliberately becoming pregnant and so no longer being eligible for the LRH Comm network. This was in 1986 just after the issue of children and the SO, which meant that anyone having children could only work in the outer orgs and not in management orgs.
We found her not guilty of this as there was no Hubbard reference on this being a crime. But the fact that someone was given a Comm Ev at all, shows the attitude towards staff having children.
Axiom142
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Fabian Marcabian
Patron
There is also a tape reference where he says that any society that has practiced infanticide has disappeared. Not sure which tape. Perhaps someone remembers. It'll have to be an old-timer. I'm sure that reference will have been edited.
Seems to be describing the CoS pretty well to me.
Yep.
I would think that getting comm-eved for getting pregnant would be one of the pressures to get an abortion. At least one that would be applied to someone resisting the abortion. Too bad she didn't tell you what led up to the comm-ev....besides the obvious, that is.
Fabian Marcabian
Patron
Well, just a tad, maybe.
A youtube user who was a dedicated Scientologist (and anonymous hater) has changed his tune slightly, and OSA has noticed. vallarrr (a known OSA mouthpiece) is trying to shut him down in the comments to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDrO19sb0qw
She even denies that coerced abortions happen in the Sea Org.
She might benefit from some of the information in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDrO19sb0qw
She even denies that coerced abortions happen in the Sea Org.
She might benefit from some of the information in this thread.
Ladybird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Forced and coerced abortions and vasectomies, tubal ligations, punishments for having children and forced divorces and forced seperations and forced seperations from the children and parents and child abuse and neglect DID in fact happen since the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and right up until the present and still do happen in the Sea Org.
Could some of you ostriches please read this thread and click on a few of the links and affidavits????
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=6932
Every single one of these stories contains at the very least a broken dream, a broken family, and a broken heart.
Could some of you ostriches please read this thread and click on a few of the links and affidavits????
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=6932
Every single one of these stories contains at the very least a broken dream, a broken family, and a broken heart.
Ladybird
Silver Meritorious Patron
"As far as we know" ... The truth about scientology will leave a big stain when it comes out in the wash.
We SHOULD know, enough people have said it, told it, wrote about it and put it into court records enough times. It is not an easy thing to do what with the cult on one side, society on the other and your own shame and pain in the middle.
Yes Zinj, scientology IS worse than anyone can imagine. Just keep looking under the tail of that skunk no matter how much of a stink the cult puts up.
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