Are delusions useful or necessary.

[degraded being]

This thread comes about as a response to some of Kha Khan's thread: Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

I don't want to derail his thread by focussing on one issue.

After scientology - but not as a reaction against scientology - I got the idea that it would be good to get rid of all my delusions - to see the world as it is. I thought it would be good if everyone did this, but didn't push it on anyone.
To me, getting rid of delusions tied in with Eastern ideas as I interpreted them.

I did not pursue this in a very structured way. It was just one purpose or objective in ideas I was thinking about, trying to see the world as it is.

After some years, for some reason I came to think that although I was not free of delusions, I was a lot better at recognizing them in myself and others. I had a sort of ephiphany which was that "People NEED delusions".
I did not get too analytical beyond that. I did not start to think that delusions should just be accepted, more along the lines that you can't just rip away all delusions, because if that was done a person might go nuts. So I just decided that if they were there that was ok, but best to anylyze them, criticize them, investigate them and find out about them, and if they could be gotten rid of it would probably enable a much better view of the world.

I think all the BTs stuff, and the "good" BTs, AKA "spiritual teammates" and "angels" "guides" "entities" or a belief which is strong but cannot define them, are delusions. More so to the degree that they are given autonomy. I suppose there are lots of other things people would call delusions.

The type of delusion I have mentioned gets more popular everyday. I only see two things in it. One is a lack of ability to question things. The other is an unwillingness to question things. The first can be changed by some sort of education. The second often persists despite education.
What are the payoffs? What are the deficits? of delusions.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

This thread comes about as a response to some of Kha Khan's thread: Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

I don't want to derail his thread by focussing on one issue.

After scientology - but not as a reaction against scientology - I got the idea that it would be good to get rid of all my delusions - to see the world as it is. I thought it would be good if everyone did this, but didn't push it on anyone.
To me, getting rid of delusions tied in with Eastern ideas as I interpreted them.

I did not pursue this in a very structured way. It was just one purpose or objective in ideas I was thinking about, trying to see the world as it is.

After some years, for some reason I came to think that although I was not free of delusions, I was a lot better at recognizing them in myself and others. I had a sort of ephiphany which was that "People NEED delusions".
I did not get too analytical beyond that. I did not start to think that delusions should just be accepted, more along the lines that you can't just rip away all delusions, because if that was done a person might go nuts. So I just decided that if they were there that was ok, but best to anylyze them, criticize them, investigate them and find out about them, and if they could be gotten rid of it would probably enable a much better view of the world.

I think all the BTs stuff, and the "good" BTs, AKA "spiritual teammates" and "angels" "guides" "entities" or a belief which is strong but cannot define them, are delusions. More so to the degree that they are given autonomy. I suppose there are lots of other things people would call delusions.

The type of delusion I have mentioned gets more popular everyday. I only see two things in it. One is a lack of ability to question things. The other is an unwillingness to question things. The first can be changed by some sort of education. The second often persists despite education.
What are the payoffs? What are the deficits? of delusions.

so.......................IS IGNORANCE BLISS???

Example: You are sailing your super-yacht around the world solo but your boat sinks. You eventually make it to a remote island inhabited by the happiest natives one can imagine.

While you try to organize getting back to the world, you live with these people and learn their ways. Everything about their lives is filled with joy. Laughter abounds. There is no war, no insanity. It is the proverbial utopian dream life of no poverty nor suffering.

Eventually you are trusted enough for them to confide their secret knowledge.

They worship the god of the cave. He provides them with everything imaginable and has done so for the past 1000 years.

And when a man or woman becomes of certain age he leads them to an even greater utopian heaven for immortal bliss. This they know with a certainty that is absolute.

One fine day you witness a 30ish man leading a procession to the cave. He is ready to go to nirvana. He waves goodbye and walks in the cave. Everyone smiles and is overjoyed. He disappears into the darkness inside.

One day you wrecklessly decide you want to meet God personally. You venture into the cave and walk for what must be a mile of downwardly twisting tunnels. It grows colder by the minute. Eventually you enter an ice cavern. It is there that you see the face of God, well sort of....

You begin to slip and slide on the icy surface and moments before you fall off a steep ledge you somehow catch yourself. You have very narrowly averted certain death. But as you look down below, there are what looks to be MILLIONS of skeletons piled up of those who perished in an identical icy plunge. Here lies a millennium of natives who "saw the face of God and went to nirvana".

And, the 30ish man who recently entered the cave lies within sight, still alive, but paralyzed from the fall and in agonizing pain. His transcendent journey was only in everyone's imagination. Reality is shocking.

You make your way back from the deep caverns and are faced with a profound conundrum.

Do you tell the happy natives what you have seen?

Or do you leave them in blissful ignorance? (or "delusion" as this excellent thread describes it).

What do you do? (golden age of delusion command?)

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

This thread comes about as a response to some of Kha Khan's thread: Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

I don't want to derail his thread by focussing on one issue.

After scientology - but not as a reaction against scientology - I got the idea that it would be good to get rid of all my delusions - to see the world as it is. I thought it would be good if everyone did this, but didn't push it on anyone.
To me, getting rid of delusions tied in with Eastern ideas as I interpreted them.

The problem with this lies in the fact that Scientology was never intended to make one free of delusion, it was intended to replace a person's sense of reality, with L. Ron Hubbard's drug induced delusions and paranoia.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

so.......................IS IGNORANCE BLISS???

Example: You are sailing your super-yacht around the world solo but your boat sinks. You eventually make it to a remote island inhabited by the happiest natives one can imagine.

While you try to organize getting back to the world, you live with these people and learn their ways. Everything about their lives is filled with joy. Laughter abounds. There is no war, no insanity. It is the proverbial utopian dream life of no poverty nor suffering.

Eventually you are trusted enough for them to confide their secret knowledge.

They worship the god of the cave. He provides them with everything imaginable and has done so for the past 1000 years.

And when a man or woman becomes of certain age he leads them to an even greater utopian heaven for immortal bliss. This they know with a certainty that is absolute.

One fine day you witness a 30ish man leading a procession to the cave. He is ready to go to nirvana. He waves goodbye and walks in the cave. Everyone smiles and is overjoyed. He disappears into the darkness inside.

One day you wrecklessly decide you want to meet God personally. You venture into the cave and walk for what must be a mile of downwardly twisting tunnels. It grows colder by the minute. Eventually you enter an ice cavern. It is there that you see the face of God, well sort of....

You begin to slip and slide on the icy surface and moments before you fall off a steep ledge you somehow catch yourself. You have very narrowly averted certain death. But as you look down below, there are what looks to be MILLIONS of skeletons piled up of those who perished in an identical icy plunge. Here lies a millennium of natives who "saw the face of God and went to nirvana".

And, the 30ish man who recently entered the cave lies within sight, still alive, but paralyzed from the fall and in agonizing pain. His transcendent journey was only in everyone's imagination. Reality is shocking.

You make your way back from the deep caverns and are faced with a profound conundrum.

Do you tell the happy natives what you have seen?

Or do you leave them in blissful ignorance? (or "delusion" as this excellent thread describes it).

What do you do? (golden age of delusion command?)

And it was only supposed to be a three-hour tour.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[RolandRB]

This thread comes about as a response to some of Kha Khan's thread: Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

I don't want to derail his thread by focussing on one issue.

After scientology - but not as a reaction against scientology - I got the idea that it would be good to get rid of all my delusions - to see the world as it is. I thought it would be good if everyone did this, but didn't push it on anyone.
To me, getting rid of delusions tied in with Eastern ideas as I interpreted them.

I did not pursue this in a very structured way. It was just one purpose or objective in ideas I was thinking about, trying to see the world as it is.

After some years, for some reason I came to think that although I was not free of delusions, I was a lot better at recognizing them in myself and others. I had a sort of ephiphany which was that "People NEED delusions".
I did not get too analytical beyond that. I did not start to think that delusions should just be accepted, more along the lines that you can't just rip away all delusions, because if that was done a person might go nuts. So I just decided that if they were there that was ok, but best to anylyze them, criticize them, investigate them and find out about them, and if they could be gotten rid of it would probably enable a much better view of the world.

I think all the BTs stuff, and the "good" BTs, AKA "spiritual teammates" and "angels" "guides" "entities" or a belief which is strong but cannot define them, are delusions. More so to the degree that they are given autonomy. I suppose there are lots of other things people would call delusions.

The type of delusion I have mentioned gets more popular everyday. I only see two things in it. One is a lack of ability to question things. The other is an unwillingness to question things. The first can be changed by some sort of education. The second often persists despite education.
What are the payoffs? What are the deficits? of delusions.

I'll ask Jesus and see what He thinks.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Are you an immortal spiritual being deluded into thinking you're a mortal physical being?

Are you a mortal physical being deluded into thinking you're an immortal spiritual being?

Oh, you know for certain. That's nice. HOW?

Paul

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Are you an immortal spiritual being deluded into thinking you're a mortal physical being?

Are you a mortal physical being deluded into thinking you're an immortal spiritual being?

Oh, you know for certain. That's nice. HOW?

Paul

Nobody knows and anyone who claims he or she knows is either batshit crazy or a liar, or as in Hubbard's case ... both. This is one of the very few situations in life which is unambitious, it is purely black and white

 

[degraded being]

Are you an immortal spiritual being deluded into thinking you're a mortal physical being?

Are you a mortal physical being deluded into thinking you're an immortal spiritual being?

Oh, you know for certain. That's nice. HOW?

Paul

I don't know.

A: "Who's uncle alf talking to, auntie?"
B: "Oh that's just his body thetans dear."
A: "Have I got body thetans auntie?"
B: "When you do your OT 3 you will have, dear"

 

[michaelangelo]

I know I'm a spiritual being cos uncle ronnie told me.

How to to know you are a Spiritual Being
Close your eyes, Now, think of a cat. Do you see a cat in your mind? Now whose looking at the cat...........

Maybe i'm the cat!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

1. Are you an immortal spiritual being deluded into thinking you're a mortal physical being?

2. Are you a mortal physical being deluded into thinking you're an immortal spiritual being?

Oh, you know for certain. That's nice. HOW?

Paul

Shall we complete the triptych? OR.........

3. Are you neither an immortal spiritual being nor a mortal physical being but something entirely different and deluded into thinking those are the only 2 choices?

 

[michaelangelo]

Shall we complete the triptych? OR.........

3. Are you neither an immortal spiritual being nor a mortal physical being but something entirely different and deluded into thinking those are the only 2 choices?

Maybe I'm a Soul and part of the light that annimates me and all living things.
Just a thought.

 

[Feral]

There s a difference between delusions and illusions.

'My son is the best little boy in the world' is an illusion I cherish, among many others, some of which, if mentioned wll put me n the doghouse with Mrs. Pattycake.

Are you differentiating here or are they all delusions?

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Shall we complete the triptych? OR.........

3. Are you neither an immortal spiritual being nor a mortal physical being but something entirely different and deluded into thinking those are the only 2 choices?

Oh you mean people who haven't fallen for Hubbard's con game, do not walk around all day in a white lab coats yelling "MAN IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BRAIN !!! ... A BRAIN !!!"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftaP5eLD0o

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I know I'm a spiritual being cos uncle ronnie told me.

How to to know you are a Spiritual Being
Close your eyes, Now, think of a cat. Do you see a cat in your mind? Now whose looking at the cat...........

Maybe i'm the cat!

Great news, there was a transcriptionist error in that "look at a picture of a cat" trick.

Now we have the NEW Golden Age of cool-tech-tricks for use by Registrars:

example:

REG: Close your eyes
(raw meat): "Okay"

REG: Now get a picture of a dollar bill
(raw meat) "I did it."

REG: Thank you! Do you see that dollar bill?
(raw meat) "Yes, I see it."

REG: Alright! Now...who is looking at that dollar bill?
(raw meat) "You are."

 

[degraded being]

There s a difference between delusions and illusions.

'My son is the best little boy in the world' is an illusion I cherish, among many others, some of which, if mentioned wll put me n the doghouse with Mrs. Pattycake.

Are you differentiating here or are they all delusions?

I am.


Quote: virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/IllusionDelusion.html
"
An illusion is a misleading perception, usually visual. You see something, but you consistently misjudge its length, shape, motion or direction. To avoid further confusion, illusions are distinctly different from hallucinations – which involve sensing something that is not actually present. In contrast, illusions deal with stimuli that are actually present, but they are misinterpreted or hard to interpret.

For example, look at the Müller-Lyer illusion shown to the right. Look at the horizontal lines. Typically the top line will be seen as being longer. However, they are both the same length. If you don't believe me, measure them yourself.

Another illusion involves the Necker cube shown to the left. Are you looking down on a cube from above? Or are you looking up at a cube from below? If you concentrate on the solid dot in the upper left, you will seem to be looking down on the cube. If you concentrate on the open dot in the lower right, it will seem that you are looking up at a cube from underneath it. For most people, as their concentration shifts from dot to dot, the cube seems to "flip-flop" – the front and back sides seem to reverse themselves. For people who are used to seeing things only one way – in this case, usually looking down on a cube – they might find it difficult to get the cube to shift.

"An illusion is a perceptual disturbance,
while a delusion is a belief disturbance."

On the other hand, a delusion is a deeply held false belief that is maintained – even when other information contradicts the belief. The contradictory information is either ignored completely or discounted in some way. Many prejudices rely on stereotypes that apply to a small minority in a group, but these stereotypes become delusional when they are used to judge everyone in that group. Beside race, religion, sex, ethnic group and nationality, occupational and age groups can develop stereotypes. Very few computer experts are "nerds," and only a small minority of athletes are "dumb jocks." Likewise, few teenagers are "delinquents," and only a small percentage of the elderly are "old fogies." However, people – who hold strong prejudices against these groups – will ignore the contradictory information and characterize all or most members of the group with these stereotyped labels.

In their extreme form, delusions and hallucinations are symptoms of people who are psychotic – they cannot clearly distinguish what is real from what is not. With psychotic disorders, hallucinations are most frequently auditory – like hearing voices."

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

There s a difference between delusions and illusions.

'My son is the best little boy in the world' is an illusion I cherish, among many others, some of which, if mentioned wll put me n the doghouse with Mrs. Pattycake.

Are you differentiating here or are they all delusions?

Thinking your son is the best little boy in the world is an illusion, quitting your job because you think he will be the first five year old to win a Nobel Peace Prize in Physics is a delusion.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Oh you mean people who haven't fallen for Hubbard's con game, do not walk around all day in a white lab coats yelling "MAN IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BRAIN !!! ... A BRAIN !!!"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftaP5eLD0o

OR:

4. Are you a delusional charlatan who claims to be the reincarnated Buddha who came back to make cringe-inducing anti-psych promo movies as Source for a treacherously deceptive money cult masquerading as man's only salvation?

 

[Feral]

I am.


Quote: virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/IllusionDelusion.html
"
An illusion is a misleading perception, usually visual. You see something, but you consistently misjudge its length, shape, motion or direction. To avoid further confusion, illusions are distinctly different from hallucinations – which involve sensing something that is not actually present. In contrast, illusions deal with stimuli that are actually present, but they are misinterpreted or hard to interpret.

For example, look at the Müller-Lyer illusion shown to the right. Look at the horizontal lines. Typically the top line will be seen as being longer. However, they are both the same length. If you don't believe me, measure them yourself.

Another illusion involves the Necker cube shown to the left. Are you looking down on a cube from above? Or are you looking up at a cube from below? If you concentrate on the solid dot in the upper left, you will seem to be looking down on the cube. If you concentrate on the open dot in the lower right, it will seem that you are looking up at a cube from underneath it. For most people, as their concentration shifts from dot to dot, the cube seems to "flip-flop" – the front and back sides seem to reverse themselves. For people who are used to seeing things only one way – in this case, usually looking down on a cube – they might find it difficult to get the cube to shift.

"An illusion is a perceptual disturbance,
while a delusion is a belief disturbance."

On the other hand, a delusion is a deeply held false belief that is maintained – even when other information contradicts the belief. The contradictory information is either ignored completely or discounted in some way. Many prejudices rely on stereotypes that apply to a small minority in a group, but these stereotypes become delusional when they are used to judge everyone in that group. Beside race, religion, sex, ethnic group and nationality, occupational and age groups can develop stereotypes. Very few computer experts are "nerds," and only a small minority of athletes are "dumb jocks." Likewise, few teenagers are "delinquents," and only a small percentage of the elderly are "old fogies." However, people – who hold strong prejudices against these groups – will ignore the contradictory information and characterize all or most members of the group with these stereotyped labels.

In their extreme form, delusions and hallucinations are symptoms of people who are psychotic – they cannot clearly distinguish what is real from what is not. With psychotic disorders, hallucinations are most frequently auditory – like hearing voices."

You're limiting your def. to optical illusions. I wasn't. So, how do you cover my example DB?

 

[Shredder]

Hey DB your post re delusion "...One is a lack of ability to question things. The other is an unwillingness to question things..." is a good start.

It was (almost) impossible to grant the space and time to do this ...(question) from 'within' Scientology. Even after my time as a staff member, I was very involved with fundraising and activities in the field. I couldn't seem to do enough (an idea I bought pretty early on) to make any sort of a dent in what seemed to be a bottomless need of the 'impossible'.
I was just too busy trying to do the impossible with the task at hand (related to helping the org) - I took 4 weeks off work to try and get the bulk of this task done - and it was only when I came up for a breather and looked a little ahead to where there was an end to this task, and that I had another goal I could possibly pursue - but it was also org related, shit! I needed to eat, pay rent, pay bills etc not to mention that there was possibly a bridge ahead I was led to believe I could get on...

It took quite some reach from some incredibly brave people, with huge risks involved - including friendships and even family members on the line...that has led me to having the opportunity to step out...with a little help from these very compassionate souls (who are all quite prolific on this board and all that support from others on this board to keep looking) who have stepped out on a limb and do so on a daily basis - and turned their efforts, laid out their stories, their dirty laundry, their deepest darkest thoughts and fears. and they have given freely their findings after a huge investment in Scientology.
Great, and I mean great sacrifices over 10, 20 and even 30 or so years of honest hard earned money and valuable time spent on helping this organisation - putting a hold on time spent with their children, spouses and family.
Now whilst gaining ground again and creating their lives to include their families and in lots of cases, new friends - these guys are actually 'helping others' LOOK...and QUESTION...and actually decide for themselves.
Thank you for such an insightful post, it just reminded me of how fortunate I am to know you guys.

...and thank you Doom, Feral, Carms, Mrs Pattycake, Scoots, Panda and Supra for reaching me and helping me look further - and continue some of those basics like human rights - something I believe Scientologists think they are applying with the Aims of Scn and the Creed of Scn; professing this is their aim and creed - they not just never quite manage to apply but violate - as they are under the delusion of Scientology.

 

[michaelangelo]

Great news, there was a transcriptionist error in that "look at a picture of a cat" trick.

Now we have the NEW Golden Age of cool-tech-tricks for use by Registrars:

example:

REG: Close your eyes
(raw meat): "Okay"

REG: Now get a picture of a dollar bill
(raw meat) "I did it."

REG: Thank you! Do you see that dollar bill?
(raw meat) "Yes, I see it."

REG: Alright! Now...who is looking at that dollar bill?
(raw meat) "You are."

Yeah and when you open your eyes your wallet has gone.