Are OT3 and Dianetics the same?

When Hubbard unleashed Dianetics on an unsuspecting world, there are three salient points - A) he used Dianetics to cure his war damaged body and B) his tome was all about the engram and it's evil effects. There is a argument floating around that there is no such thing as engrams or a reactive bank of them. They are created solely by the reader of Dianetics in response to reading about them in his book. Point C - he mines that vein for years - you have Science of survival, the 1960's R3R Dianetics, Standard Dianetics in the 70's, Expanded Dianetics, and New Era Dianetics. Other than tweaks here and there, it is much the same thing.

Lets skip whether or not engrams exist, whether they have dominion over the analytic mind, whether they have command over a person's actions, can be erased, there are trillions of them scattered down the whole track, yadda, yadda. Likewise, lets skip whether BT's are real or not, whether they can control your actions, if they can be exteriorized, and if you get rid of one, another moves into the vacant limb, or what have you, making the level almost impossible to complete.

When OT 3 was released - Hubbard made much the same claims as before on Dianetics, A) on Rons Journal 67 he claim he broke his back, he almost didn't survive researching it, he was quite knocked around. You can listen to the tape for your self and hear his claims. but interestingly - it's the same story as Dianetics - how he overcame these physical infirmities with his technology. And in both cases, what do we find? Neither are true. No war injuries, no broken body.

What about the parallel between OT3 and the engrams, point B)? They both have sway over the individual, there are lots of them, and their existence stems from your reading of their actuality in his books and bulletins. Could ther be BTs? Maybe. Many people hear voices in their head. Are they demon circuits ( Dianetics answer) or live entities ( OT3's answer) Again, they are subject to subjective proof, not objective.

And he mined the BT vein much as he mined the Engram vein - there is OT3, there are SP BT's, drug handling of BT's (OT 4), Clearing of BT's, there are unconscious BT's on OT 5, and even worse off ones on OT 6 and OT 7 and all the attendant BT handling technology that he created.

So, it would seem, he did the same hat trick on OT3 as he did on Dianetics. Which leads us to the OP question:

Are they the same?

Mimsey
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Heh. :)

True, there are definite similarities, as you describe. I would merely add that I believe there are genuine phenomena underlying Hubbard's "engrams" and "body thetans," but not as he described them. As there are ways of alleviating the, shall-we-say, disharmony connected to both, some ways better than others.

Paul
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
When Hubbard unleashed Dianetics on an unsuspecting world, there are three salient points - A) he used Dianetics to cure his war damaged body and B) his tome was all about the engram and it's evil effects. There is a argument floating around that there is no such thing as engrams or a reactive bank of them. They are created solely by the reader of Dianetics in response to reading about them in his book. Point C - he mines that vein for years - you have Science of survival, the 1960's R3R Dianetics, Standard Dianetics in the 70's, Expanded Dianetics, and New Era Dianetics. Other than tweaks here and there, it is much the same thing.

Lets skip whether or not engrams exist, whether they have dominion over the analytic mind, whether they have command over a person's actions, can be erased, there are trillions of them scattered down the whole track, yadda, yadda. Likewise, lets skip whether BT's are real or not, whether they can control your actions, if they can be exteriorized, and if you get rid of one, another moves into the vacant limb, or what have you, making the level almost impossible to complete.

When OT 3 was released - Hubbard made much the same claims as before on Dianetics, A) on Rons Journal 67 he claim he broke his back, he almost didn't survive researching it, he was quite knocked around. You can listen to the tape for your self and hear his claims. but interestingly - it's the same story as Dianetics - how he overcame these physical infirmities with his technology. And in both cases, what do we find? Neither are true. No war injuries, no broken body.

What about the parallel between OT3 and the engrams, point B)? They both have sway over the individual, there are lots of them, and their existence stems from your reading of their actuality in his books and bulletins. Could ther be BTs? Maybe. Many people hear voices in their head. Are they demon circuits ( Dianetics answer) or live entities ( OT3's answer) Again, they are subject to subjective proof, not objective.

And he mined the BT vein much as he mined the Engram vein - there is OT3, there are SP BT's, drug handling of BT's (OT 4), Clearing of BT's, there are unconscious BT's on OT 5, and even worse off ones on OT 6 and OT 7 and all the attendant BT handling technology that he created.

So, it would seem, he did the same hat trick on OT3 as he did on Dianetics. Which leads us to the OP question:

Are they the same?

Mimsey

Not exactly. But they have a definite "technical" relationship in Hubbard's world, which becomes evident at NOTs level. (New Era Dianetics for OTs).

Hubbard said:
The reason Dianetic auditing messes up Clears and OTs is that when an auditor asks for an earlier similar which doesn't exit, you'll probably go over into a cluster or BT where it does exist. You see the Clear or OT doesn't have pictures of his own so the Dianetic chain is being run on a BT or cluster and it really caves in somebody when asked for an earlier similar that doesn't exist, on that BT or anywhere else. And it'll jump the guy straight into another BT or cluster. And you get chaos.

Hubbard, L. HCO B 15 Sept 1978 NED for OTs Series 1 NED for OT RD, Theory Of

Theoretically, you can run engrams on lower level pc's, because they are themselves an undifferentiated mass of BTs and clusters, which largely hold sway over the pc and overwhelm him. (Ref. HCOB The Nature of a Being, NOTs Series 1) This overwhelm (supposedly) gets resolved at OT 3. OT 3 completions attest to "Freedom from Overwhelm."

At the level of Clear, when Scientologists realize they're mocking up all their pictures, they don't identify with what they understand to be the reactive mind, but now must begin to project their (still there, let's face it; show me a *&%^&%^ Clear) disabilities, etc. onto sources not-really-them. I.e., "BTs and clusters." If Scientologists who have reached this point of "clear" are made to keep running Dianetics (Book 1 or R3RA) the presence of mental pictures can cause very serious psychological problems.

I think David Griffin's explanation in The Ritual Magic Manual provides a reasonable explanation for this condition of "BTs." (Earlier ESMB post on this.)

OT 2 builds on pre-OTs' "ability" to project and dissociate. The expected (confidential, not shown to the public) result is that the case has become "separated out." The Xenu story, absurd as it is, usually provides enough narrative at OT 3, to explain some very odd dissociative phenomena that properly processed Scientologists experience. It also of course displaces cause for their still human condition, and essentially makes them "Homo Novis." It's completely backwards, inside out and upside down.

Hubbard probably took from Crowley on his "Bridge to Total Freedom":

Crowley said:
It is much easier (for obvious reasons) to acquire the Magical Memory when one has been sworn for many lives to reincarnate immediately. The great obstacle is the phenomenon called Freudian forgetfulness; that is to say, that though an unpleasant event may be recorded faithfully enough by the mechanism of the brain, we fail to recall it, or recall it wrong, because it is painful. The Psychopathology of Everyday Life[SUP]1[/SUP] analyzes and illustrates this phenomenon in detail. Now, the King of Terrors being Death, it is hard indeed to look it in the face. Mankind has created a host of phantastic masks; people talk of "going to heaven," "passing over," and so on--banners flaunted from pasteboard towers of baseless theories. One instinctively flinches from remembering one's last, as one does from imagining one's next, death. The point of view of the initiate helps one immensely.

As soon as one has passed this pons asinorum [SUP]2[/SUP] the practice becomes much easier. It is much less trouble to reach the life before the last; familiarity breeds contempt for it.
__________
[SUP]1[/SUP]by Sigmund Freud]

[SUP]2[/SUP][Latin, lit. "asses' bridge," i.e, an obstacle for beginners.]

Crowley, Aleister. (1913). Magick Liber ABA Book Four Parts I-IV (1997 second revised ed., p. 174). York Beach: Samuel Weiser, Inc.

Emphasis added ^.

Compare "The Magical Memory," and Charles Bennett's The Training of the Mind with Dianetics, reverie, and returning on the time track.

Of course the more dissociation, and the more pre-OTs get validated for this terrible condition they've been sold, the more cha ching. The Bridge to Total Freedom is Hubbard's dwindling spiral of sanity. Get off while you still can.

Interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.
 
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phenomanon

Canyon
Not exactly. But they have a definite "technical" relationship in Hubbard's world, which becomes evident at NOTs level. (New Era Dianetics for OTs).



Theoretically, you can run engrams on lower level pc's, because they are themselves an undifferentiated mass of BTs and clusters, which largely hold sway over the pc and overwhelm him. (Ref. HCOB The Nature of a Being, NOTs Series 1) This overwhelm (supposedly) gets resolved at OT 3. OT 3 completions attest to "Freedom from Overwhelm."

At the level of Clear, when Scientologists realize they're mocking up all their pictures, they don't identify with what they understand to be the reactive mind, but now must begin to project their (still there, let's face it; show me a *&%^&%^ Clear) disabilities, etc. onto sources not-really-them. I.e., "BTs and clusters." If Scientologists who have reached this point of "clear" are made to keep running Dianetics (Book 1 or R3RA) the presence of mental pictures can cause very serious psychological problems.

I think David Griffin's explanation in The Ritual Magic Manual provides a reasonable explanation for this condition of "BTs." (Earlier ESMB post on this.)

OT 2 builds on pre-OTs' "ability" to project and dissociate. The expected (confidential, not shown to the public) result is that the case has become "separated out." The Xenu story, absurd as it is, usually provides enough narrative at OT 3, to explain some very odd dissociative phenomena that properly processed Scientologists experience. It also of course displaces cause for their still human condition, and essentially makes them "Homo Novis." It's completely backwards, inside out and upside down.

Hubbard probably took from Crowley on his "Bridge to Total Freedom":



Emphasis added ^. (The Magical Memory is another feature that compares with Dianetics "reverie.")

Of course the more dissociation, and the more pre-OTs get validated for this terrible condition they've been sold, the more cha ching. The Bridge to Total Freedom is Hubbard's dwindling spiral of sanity. Get off while you still can.

Interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.

well I dunno about this running a past life which does not exist for the 'cleared' person opening up the BT/Cl case and causeing mucho problems for the 'cleared' person.
I ran hunnerds of Dianetics after the Clearing course, as did every other old timer from the 50s/60s and up until the " Dianetics Forbidden on Clears and OTs" HCOB was released.
Most of us were not in very bad shape. I, personally, had a little 25c case to start with, and the so-called out tech didn't harm me in any way. Didn't harm anyone that I knew.
Didn't seem to have harmed anyone that I audited.
YMMV if you believe the crap surrounding the State of Clear issues that came out in the late 70s.

phenomanon
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dianetics and the Clearing thru OT levels use the same type of covert hypnotic technique LINK


The implied suggestions before, during and after are different, but are delivered to the entranced believer in much the same way.. LINK


Both tell you a story, a 'shore story" or "suitable guise" to get you to use an imagery technique, (maybe we could call it "the moving basketball" technique, see link above...) for inducing the deepest (and most suggestible) trance states.

This struck me as being quite deviously clever.. (in hindsight of course)..
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Before I first read the OT 3 materials, I had already concluded from my in depth studies of the '50's materials and tapes, observing "Clears" and conversing with them that OT 3 would have something to do with "Entities" "attached" to and "impinging" on a "Thetan" .

Dianetics and OT 3 are very similar primarily in that they are founded on the principle that everything going on that is wrong, bad or F'd up with an individual is caused by hidden, unseen powerful influences that are not them and cannot be known about or handled without Training and Auditing.

Face:)
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
well I dunno about this running a past life which does not exist for the 'cleared' person opening up the BT/Cl case and causeing mucho problems for the 'cleared' person.

Emphasis on 'cleared', as you note.

I ran hunnerds of Dianetics after the Clearing course, as did every other old timer from the 50s/60s and up until the " Dianetics Forbidden on Clears and OTs" HCOB was released.
Most of us were not in very bad shape. I, personally, had a little 25c case to start with, and the so-called out tech didn't harm me in any way. Didn't harm anyone that I knew.
Didn't seem to have harmed anyone that I audited.
YMMV if you believe the crap surrounding the State of Clear issues that came out in the late 70s.

phenomanon

Do you believe the crap surrounding the State of Clear that came out in DMSMH?
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Before I first read the OT 3 materials, I had already concluded from my in depth studies of the '50's materials and tapes, observing "Clears" and conversing with them that OT 3 would have something to do with "Entities" "attached" to and "impinging" on a "Thetan" .

Dianetics and OT 3 are very similar primarily in that they are founded on the principle that everything going on that is wrong, bad or F'd up with an individual is caused by hidden, unseen powerful influences that are not them and cannot be known about or handled without Training and Auditing.

Face:)

Face, can you elaborate on the exact clues that led you to believe that OT3 would invlove external entitites?
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Face, can you elaborate on the exact clues that led you to believe that OT3 would invlove external entitites?

Yes. But you'll have to wait a few days. It's gonna take some work and attention to prepare a full Narrative your question deserves and that's gonna take some time and I don't have right now. :yes:

Face:)
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Dianetics and OT 3 are very similar primarily in that they are founded on the principle that everything going on that is wrong, bad or F'd up with an individual is caused by hidden, unseen powerful influences that are not them and cannot be known about or handled without Training and Auditing.

Huh. That's quite striking. Are engrams and body thetans essentially the same products, under the hood, with just a different logo stamped on the back?

As I understand it from the accounts I've read, when you're auditing for body thetans you somehow get a notion that a BT is located somewhere specific in your body. Then you try to figure out what past incident, out of a few big ones, is affecting that BT. I gather you don't find a spot on your body for an engram, and the incident associated with it could be anything. It's supposed to be a unique experience of your own.

On the other hand, since an engram might be from a past life on another planet, it could really be anything, and Hubbard laid out a few classic whole track episodes that people could recognize. So then it seems to me that in both cases, BT and whole track incident engram, you're ridding yourself of some psychic disturbance by recognizing its existence with an e-meter and then mentally reciting a little story by Hubbard at it, to make it go away. If this is right, then this does seem pretty similar. BTs would just add the element of locating the critter on your body, and reducing the number of Hubbard stories from which you should choose to get rid of it.

The theory of what engrams and BTs are supposed to be may of course be different. I'm talking about what they actually amount to in Scientology practice. How similar are they?
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Huh. That's quite striking. Are engrams and body thetans essentially the same products, under the hood, with just a different logo stamped on the back?

As I understand it from the accounts I've read, when you're auditing for body thetans you somehow get a notion that a BT is located somewhere specific in your body. Then you try to figure out what past incident, out of a few big ones, is affecting that BT. I gather you don't find a spot on your body for an engram, and the incident associated with it could be anything. It's supposed to be a unique experience of your own.

On the other hand, since an engram might be from a past life on another planet, it could really be anything, and Hubbard laid out a few classic whole track episodes that people could recognize. So then it seems to me that in both cases, BT and whole track incident engram, you're ridding yourself of some psychic disturbance by recognizing its existence with an e-meter and then mentally reciting a little story by Hubbard at it, to make it go away. If this is right, then this does seem pretty similar. BTs would just add the element of locating the critter on your body, and reducing the number of Hubbard stories from which you should choose to get rid of it.

The theory of what engrams and BTs are supposed to be may of course be different. I'm talking about what they actually amount to in Scientology practice. How similar are they?

Very good question and points, Trinity. :thumbsup: This will be covered in my Narrative. It will probably be the end of the week before I Post it.
 
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Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Are OT3 and Dianetics the same?

Yes - Dianetics - you are $old that you get rid of your reactive mind but in the end after many, many years and lots of money - you "cognite that you put your reactive mind there but can control it"...:whistling:

OT3 - Xenu threw a bunch of people in volcanoes and blew them up with H-Bombs - their souls are attached to you and the OT levels - you will get rid of those....:whistling:audit them off:omg: year and years and lots of money....

"you put those there too":duh:

Just take responsibility for everything and bypass Scientology - that "cog" is free and easier than doing Scamonology.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Before I first read the OT 3 materials, I had already concluded from my in depth studies of the '50's materials and tapes, observing "Clears" and conversing with them that OT 3 would have something to do with "Entities" "attached" to and "impinging" on a "Thetan" .

Dianetics and OT 3 are very similar primarily in that they are founded on the principle that everything going on that is wrong, bad or F'd up with an individual is caused by hidden, unseen powerful influences that are not them and cannot be known about or handled without Training and Auditing.

Face:)


That is the essential formula for conquest of homo sapiens.

Hubbard was a promoter. Promoters promote "X" as the greatest thing ever that will solve all problems. Even infomercials do it when there is nothing wrong in the first place. Example: Infomercial begins and shows an old woman reaching for light switch and falling down three flights of stairs. But wait! There is a solution! The new space-aged "LIGHT-ON MIRACLE SWITCH". Now there is a button to push rather than a lever to flip up. People no long need to suffer cruel fates when trying to turn on a light, losing their balance and life in the process! Yayyyy!

The key is in this little phrase about "Dissemination" by Hubbard the promoter: "Find their ruin or make one real to them."

It is the same principle in Fair Game. Find their crimes or manufacture them.

Hubbard "made" and "manufactured" ruins for mankind. Engrams, then later, implants, Body Thetans and an endless list of other ruins that nobody ever had in the first place. And then Hubbard humbly offered to cure mankind and bestow upon them immortality for the low, low, low price of well…..nothing!! It's free! (Hey, the work is free, you only need to pay the $500,000 S&H)
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Face, can you elaborate on the exact clues that led you to believe that OT3 would invlove external entitites?

I don't want to answer for Face, but there are several non-confidential references that discuss addressing entities. Probably the most widely known issue at this point is HCOB 30 July 1980 The Nature of a Being. From that HCOB:

Hubbard said:
What you see as a human being, a person, is not a single-unit being.

In the first place, there is the matter of valence. A person can be himself or he can be under the belief that he is another person or thing entirely. This removes him a step from being a simple being.

Then there is the matter of being in a body. A body is a very complex contrivance, quite remarkable, quite complicated. And it is also quite subject to its own distortions.

There are also the entities (as discussed in Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, pages 84-90, and also The History of Man, pages 13-14, 43, 75-77). These follow all the rules and laws and phenomena of single beings.

And then there is the matter of influences of other people around this human being.

From a single, simple being there is a progressive complication setting in as one adds all these other factors.

The single, simple being, without any further associations, can be out of valence even miles away from other contacts.

Hubbard, L. (1980, 30 July) The Nature of a Being. Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology (1991 ed., Vol XII, pp. 131-2). Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't want to answer for Face, but there are several non-confidential references that discuss addressing entities. Probably the most widely known issue at this point is HCOB 30 July 1980 The Nature of a Being. From that HCOB:

:thumbsup:

Thank you, Caroline. I actually had never read that HCOB before today. My conclusions re: OT 3 were made before the release of KNOT's. :yes:
 
Huh. That's quite striking. Are engrams and body thetans essentially the same products, under the hood, with just a different logo stamped on the back?

As I understand it from the accounts I've read, when you're auditing for body thetans you somehow get a notion that a BT is located somewhere specific in your body. Then you try to figure out what past incident, out of a few big ones, is affecting that BT. .....

...The theory of what engrams and BTs are supposed to be may of course be different. I'm talking about what they actually amount to in Scientology practice. How similar are they?

On OT 3 you run them through a specific incident ( either incident 1 or incident 2) and they will blow, on Nots you find out what they are being, and who they are and when they cog, they blow. They can be in, on or near your body.

Mimsey
 

uncover

Gold Meritorious Patron
On OT 3 you run them through a specific incident ( either incident 1 or incident 2) and they will blow, on Nots you find out what they are being, and who they are and when they cog, they blow. They can be in, on or near your body.
.... or only in your mind....

El Con Hubbard said:
"There are more BTs! Many more than people realize!"
 
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