Are Rathbun, Rinder and all those Ex-Int Base Staff our Friends?

Terril park

Sponsor
I totally understand your point, Smurf. And I basically agree with it.

I'll never stop talking about it.

But I have been so hard on those two Beavers in the past that I have decided that when I saw them headed in the generally right direction (They're not saying it's all Miscavige any more, they don't seem to be really revising history any more like they used to be, and Marty is making very pointed statements about what goes back to Hubbard now - and he is allowing blatant criticism of Hubbard on his blog all the time now) I decided that I would be more supportive.

But you are totally right. They could be completely exposing the resources and methods of every OSA program, location, dirty tricks OP, etc they ever ran.

Joel Sappel, for instance, I'm sure, could use their help.

But it's just not a programs target right now, obviously.

Alanzo

You don't know that they are not in comm with Joel Sappel. Recall they were taking flack for years about not going to the FBI, and we then find that that they had gone to the FBI and were sort of thrown under the bus.

What they intend doing they should keep confidential for obvious reasons.
Also they will both be on the witness stand, assuming DM dosn't settle too quick.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
You don't know that they are not in comm with Joel Sappel. Recall they were taking flack for years about not going to the FBI, and we then find that that they had gone to the FBI and were sort of thrown under the bus.

What they intend doing they should keep confidential for obvious reasons.
Also they will both be on the witness stand, assuming DM dosn't settle too quick.

Maybe they are just these brilliant masterminds whose strategic planning has totally worked out from the day they hit the ground running outside the cult.

But I kinda doubt it.

It's becoming clearer and clearer to me, that just like all of us, their self-identities have been fucked with so much, that they are on a constant and sometimes very unpleasant carnival fun house mirror ride of extremely disappointing self discovery.

From human being up to thetan is a delightfully delusional rocket ride of imaginary grandeur.

The way back down from thetan to human being again is not so graceful, or as glamorous.

Alanzo
 
Last edited:

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
This is why I'm happy to have you back on ESMB, Al.
You're playing dumb, of course, you understand me perfectly (though others may not).
I'm guessing that accusing me of harboring scientological concepts somehow makes you feel better about what I have to say.
No worries. :)

Really, Panda, and I mean this with all respect.

You and I will do a lot better if you are really plain and clear about what you may disagree with in my posts. Or points of discussion you want to make to me.

Again, I really mean this in a constructive way in moving forward with you.

Please make clear, declarative statements about anything you want to discuss with me or comments on what I write.

I really do want to be friends.

Thanks again.

Alanzo
 
Last edited:

Terril park

Sponsor
Maybe they are just these brilliant masterminds whose strategic planning has totally worked out from the day they hit the ground running outside the cult.

But I kinda doubt it.

It's becoming clearer and clearer to me, that just like all of us, their self-identities have been fucked with so much, that they are on a constant and sometimes very unpleasant carnival fun house mirror ride of extremely disappointing self discovery.

From human being up to thetan is a delightfully delusional rocket ride of imaginary grandeur.

The way back down from thetan to human being again is not as graceful or as glamorous.

Alanzo

Marty seemed a bit cranky initially, and to put it mildly terse on his blog. He now looks to be in a good happy place, on a path that looks very productive for all here. Mike
has always seemed to be more grounded to me and has shown a wonderful sense of humour.

I assume they have done some strategic planning and it seems to be going extremely well currently.
 

Good twin

Floater
Marty seemed a bit cranky initially, and to put it mildly terse on his blog. He now looks to be in a good happy place, on a path that looks very productive for all here. Mike
has always seemed to be more grounded to me and has shown a wonderful sense of humour.

I assume they have done some strategic planning and it seems to be going extremely well currently.

Yes they need to align their dynamics and get their admin scales in. But they still won't be clear or OT. They will adjust to just being human, eventually.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Yes they need to align their dynamics and get their admin scales in. But they still won't be clear or OT. They will adjust to just being human, eventually.

Tch Tch! Thread derail. There must be umpteen threads on clear and OT.

The burning question today is will they and others succeed in getting a
certain dwarf into big trouble, even terminal trouble.:coolwink:
 

ClearEyed

Patron with Honors
Why am I asking this question? The above Ex-Int Base staff have worked for decades with alterations of LRH tech from the inside. There is new OT 1, new 4, new 5, new 6, new 7, new 8 and all those Tech terminals trained by LRH have been routed out and SP-declared. They have also been prosecuted in legal battles and squashed to the ground. One of those for my knowledge is David Mayo. I would like that you put the attention on the products done by those Ex-Int Base staff - introduction of New OT levels - routing out and squashing of the real tech-terminals in Scientology history. After many years for whatever reason those Ex-Int Base staff are out. The reason given was that DM is an SP and he has done all of it. If this is true then the ideal scene would have been like this: I ..... (Ex-RTC , OSA Int etc.) communicate all my O/Ws to all Scientologists. Then they would use their knowledge to make sure that there are no copyright and TM issues to stop the delivery of Scientology in order to make Clear and OTs. Hey! But that is the ideal scene, there is a lot of work to reach that. OK, you are right. This is the PT sit. One of those Ex-Int Base staff is nattering about LRH, DM, David Mayo and whoever is qualified to audit but disagrees with his theories on Rogers. The other one is telling to the outside world that the Data Series 40 is OUT and DM is saying that is IN. Another one is building a "milestone org" that is not a "Management" but will help you to manage your practice just for $50 a year. Are those actions done by the Ex-Int Base Staff really helping to Clear the Planet? I do not see any difference in their actions done at Int Base and outside "Int Base" . Please those from OSA do not answer we are not interested in your justification for keeping the beings of this planet sleeping.

Well, having studied Scientology, you should know that the first question a tech trained Scientologist would ask is: who do you mean by "all those Ex-Int Base Staff?" because you know that speaking in such generalities is one of the signs of an SP, right? And all that natter would seem to indicate that you have some MWH against the people you are complaining about.

Sorry, that was bad. Now I may have introverted you or caused you to feel defensive. You can relax. I don't really believe that. I'm just trying to make a point here, which is this:

THERE IS NOT NOW NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN "STANDARD TECH".

LRH never developed anything that will "clear the planet." That's a myth that was never going to happen.

If any ex-Int base staff are still trying to clear the planet, I can only hope they won't waste the rest of their lives in doing so. And I don't know why you think you are in a position to say what any of them should be doing with their lives, anyway. Hey, LRH couldn't clear the planet. What makes you think you know how to do it?
 

Veda

Sponsor
By the way, Veda:

When Mike Laws and Karen DLC were making their "relationship building, PR lobbyist" calls around to various ESMBers about 3 years ago for Indy OSA, each of them asked me, on two different occasions "Who is Veda?"

Really. They were asking repeatedly.

I said, "I have no idea who Veda is, I have never known, and I don't want to know. Why do YOU want to know?"

Mike Laws said, "Well I think it's pretty clear that Veda is Gerry Armstrong." and then he was silent, waiting for me to argue with him or something.

It was pretty funny.

Alanzo

I don't know Mike Laws from the man in the moon. My only brief communication with him was friendly, so it's peculiar as to why he'd be so concerned about me - unless he was doing so at the behest of another.

Let's hope the parties involved in the "Indy OSA" of a while back have changed their ways and "seen the light."
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Really, Panda, and I mean this with all respect.

You and I will do a lot better if you are really plain and clear about what you may disagree with in my posts. Or points of discussion you want to make to me.

Again, I really mean this in a constructive way in moving forward with you.

Please make clear, declarative statements about anything you want to discuss with me or comments on what I write.

I really do want to be friends.

Thanks again.

Alanzo
Thank you. This is an Alanzo I like; warm and fluffy but businesslike.

We ARE friends, we're the kind of friends who are willing to argue with each other.

I understand that you're still taking our temperature and testing the waters here on ESMB but you know how I am, I've always been honest with you and that isn't going to change

Now, about this idea you have regarding toxic influences here on ESMB... http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-to-me-on-ESMB&p=856738&viewfull=1#post856738

(declarative statement) Spit it out, these thoughts will make you (and others) feel queasy.

(declarative question) Are you back here to fix what's wrong with ESMB? (It's OK if you are.)

(General conversational question) You really missed us, didn't you? :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Thank you. This is an Alanzo I like; warm and fluffy but businesslike.

We ARE friends, we're the kind of friends who are willing to argue with each other.

I understand that you're still taking our temperature and testing the waters here on ESMB but you know how I am, I've always been honest with you and that isn't going to change

Now, about this idea you have regarding toxic influences here on ESMB... http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-to-me-on-ESMB&p=856738&viewfull=1#post856738

(declarative statement) Spit it out, these thoughts will make you (and others) feel queasy.

(declarative question) Are you back here to fix what's wrong with ESMB? (It's OK if you are.)

(General conversational question) You really missed us, didn't you? :)

A few nights ago, after I'd been immersed in posting for a day or so (as in that thread), I had a huge surge of emotion after not being here for almost 2 and a half years.

I was actually feeling the same feelings again that I felt in the last days I was here.

I was picturing myself in the middle of the street of that small western town again, with all the screaming townspeople gathered around, calling for my hanging, and the sharpshooters crawling up on top of the saloon, taking their places - with me, standing in the middle of the street waving a half drunk bottle of booze around at everyone, defiantly screaming for them to COME AND GET ME!!!

Really. I'm not kidding. I was actually feeling that and seeing it in my head.

Then Sindy wrote a post saying "Hey Al, how bout if you see if you can make it through the weekend without getting yourself banned again?"

And I busted out laughing.

Then I looked around at the room I was in, backed away from the computer, and went to bed.

I had a long series of very intense dreams of abusive bosses, screaming ex-wives, and snarling German shepherds with water cannon mowing people down at civil rights rallies.

I awoke the next morning to light streaming in to my bedroom.

And I realized that I didn't lose all my friends again.

I sat up and focused on the feelings that were surging through me, examining each as closely and as dispassionately as I could.

Then I realized that Alanzo is the perfect Poster Boy.

He is the model for cult recovery.

Because he's done it so perfectly, and so gracefully.

As we all have.

_________________________________________

I hope that answered all your questions, Panda.

If not, please don't pester me for a while.

I'm really not up for it yet.

Alanzo
 
Last edited:

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
A few nights ago, after I'd been immersed in posting for a day or so (as in that thread), I had a huge surge of emotion after not being here for almost 2 and a half years.

I was actually feeling the same feelings again that I felt in the last days I was here.

I was picturing myself in the middle of the street of that small western town again, with all the screaming townspeople gathered around, calling for my hanging, and the sharpshooters crawling up on top of the saloon, taking their places - with me, standing in the middle of the street waving a half drunk bottle of booze around at everyone, defiantly screaming for them to COME AND GET ME!!!

Really. I'm not kidding. I was actually feeling that and seeing it in my head.

Then Sindy wrote a post saying "Hey Al, how bout if you see if you can make it through the weekend without getting yourself banned again?"

And I busted out laughing.

Then I looked around at the room I was in, backed away from the computer, and went to bed.

I had a long series of very intense dreams of abusive bosses, screaming ex-wives, and snarling German shepherds with water cannon mowing people down at civil rights rallies.

I awoke the next morning to light streaming in to my bedroom.

And I realized that I didn't lose all my friends again.

I sat up and focused on the feelings that were surging through me, examining each as closely and as dispassionately as I could.

Then I realized that Alanzo is the perfect Poster Boy.

He is the model for cult recovery.

Because he's done it so perfectly, and so gracefully.

As we all have.

_________________________________________

I hope that answered all your questions, Panda.

If not, please don't pester me for a while.

I'm really not up for it yet.

Alanzo

Alanzo, you might want to consider the other side of the fence. I don't know about anyone else & can't speak for anyone else, but using your analogy, I don't know what the gunslinger is going to do next.

Last time he rode through town he went on a shooting spree & there wasn't much anyone could do but duck for cover & hide their children.

Now he's back & I for one don't know if and when the shooting will start so I'm kinda keeping a safe distance.

I do understand your position. I get that you are feeling your way. But also understand so am I (and maybe some others here are too). I don't want another shoot out.

Coming back & saying how terrible the board is & how much bullshit is fed to people here, doesn't make me confidant that you've put the guns away. In fact I found it telling that you said you felt the same way you felt 2 years ago just before you left. Well, it's the same for me. I feel the same anxiety I did when you were on your last "crusade". I'm expecting a hit any minute.

So it's not just you who is feeling weird & unsettled. I just thought you might like to know that.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Alanzo, you might want to consider the other side of the fence. I don't know about anyone else & can't speak for anyone else, but using your analogy, I don't know what the gunslinger is going to do next.

Last time he rode through town he went on a shooting spree & there wasn't much anyone could do but duck for cover & hide their children.

Now he's back & I for one don't know if and when the shooting will start so I'm kinda keeping a safe distance.

I do understand your position. I get that you are feeling your way. But also understand so am I (and maybe some others here are too). I don't want another shoot out.

Coming back & saying how terrible the board is & how much bullshit is fed to people here, doesn't make me confidant that you've put the guns away. In fact I found it telling that you said you felt the same way you felt 2 years ago just before you left. Well, it's the same for me. I feel the same anxiety I did when you were on your last "crusade". I'm expecting a hit any minute.

So it's not just you who is feeling weird & unsettled. I just thought you might like to know that.

You really shouldn't take any of this personally, Emma.

ESMB is not about you.

Alanzo
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Alanzo, you might want to consider the other side of the fence. I don't know about anyone else & can't speak for anyone else, but using your analogy, I don't know what the gunslinger is going to do next.

Last time he rode through town he went on a shooting spree & there wasn't much anyone could do but duck for cover & hide their children.

Now he's back & I for one don't know if and when the shooting will start so I'm kinda keeping a safe distance.

I do understand your position. I get that you are feeling your way. But also understand so am I (and maybe some others here are too). I don't want another shoot out.

Coming back & saying how terrible the board is & how much bullshit is fed to people here, doesn't make me confidant that you've put the guns away. In fact I found it telling that you said you felt the same way you felt 2 years ago just before you left. Well, it's the same for me. I feel the same anxiety I did when you were on your last "crusade". I'm expecting a hit any minute.

So it's not just you who is feeling weird & unsettled. I just thought you might like to know that.

Emma, I'm really not trying to kiss butt... reading stuff like this, I just remember that I really adore you. If you weren't at the helm, I don't know if I would have kept poking my ugly face back into this mess. I really have not decided if that is a good or bad thing, but there has just been so much healing under this banner that you put up... hell, I'm a sniff away from being fuck-nuts at times, but having been here, I have been recovering from the cult--and from what I've been told, stuff I post here has been helpful in others recovering. Some days, that weighs on me... it really does. So, I can't imagine what it must be like for someone to start a message board that a lot of people probably feel saved their lives. I don't picture that as an easy mantle.

So, in my awkward way, I'm just trying to say that some of us out here really appreciate it. And, since we've left the cult, we don't expect you to be OT. You are a wonderful human being who did something amazing by creating this place, and steps in and tries to run it. I know I'm in hormonal and no-sleep-mode, but the idea that you might even beat yourself up a little really makes me pissed off... and since I am hormonal, I could have mis-read.. you are amazing. I've met so many wonderful people here, and yes, I've waded through a bunch of bs, but I've met folks that, even though we haven't met face-to-face, I think I have to count as among my closest friends. You made that possible. So, yes, thank you.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
A few nights ago, <...snip...>

please don't pester me for a while.

I'm really not up for it yet.

Alanzo
No worries. Emma already answered this post better than I ever could/would have.
I won't pester you, please afford me the same courtesy (you've already mentioned me by name twice in the same sentence as "fuck off".)

Mark "Chopper" Read (the originator of "Harden The Fuck Up!") died today so you should expect a bit of that stuff from me for the next day or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Apsh7Cjzzw
 
Last edited:

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I know very little recent history of all these conflicts, and no ancient history at all — but maybe that helps in one way. I see a pattern that I've seen before a few times on this board.

A lot of posts read like total non sequiturs. Somebody makes a post that seems quite innocuous to me, in my innocence and ignorance; somebody replies as though that post had been a nasty insult. Animosity coming out of nowhere, for no apparent reason. It's bizarre.

Sometimes I can sort of figure it out. I can see a way where one could read the first post as sarcastic, or something — even though it's not the natural way to read it, as far as I'm concerned. Then I can see a way where one could perhaps read the second post as not really being quite so aggressive — even though it sure seems aggressive to me, at first glance. And so it goes on getting gradually nastier on all sides, with each party no doubt thinking it's the aggrieved one.

All of which is understandable; people have history. I don't believe in engrams, but maybe this board has some engrams.

I'm trying to offer an independent reality check. Are some people chronically over-reacting to each other? It looks that way to me.
 
I know very little recent history of all these conflicts, and no ancient history at all — but maybe that helps in one way. I see a pattern that I've seen before a few times on this board.

A lot of posts read like total non sequiturs. Somebody makes a post that seems quite innocuous to me, in my innocence and ignorance; somebody replies as though that post had been a nasty insult. Animosity coming out of nowhere, for no apparent reason. It's bizarre.

Sometimes I can sort of figure it out. I can see a way where one could read the first post as sarcastic, or something — even though it's not the natural way to read it, as far as I'm concerned. Then I can see a way where one could perhaps read the second post as not really being quite so aggressive — even though it sure seems aggressive to me, at first glance. And so it goes on getting gradually nastier on all sides, with each party no doubt thinking it's the aggrieved one.

All of which is understandable; people have history. I don't believe in engrams, but maybe this board has some engrams.

I'm trying to offer an independent reality check. Are some people chronically over-reacting to each other? It looks that way to me.

Sweet and sour.

Esoteric.

Love Hate. But we are all so much above that sort of thing.
So shall we say, Love Dislike? No, we are above Dislike too.
Let's just say we really respect each other and value each other.
 
Last edited:
Top