HoraciotheOT8
Patron with Honors
Once upon a time, in a far away land, the idea that the world was not flat, but was round, was crazy stuff also.
Arnie is a pioneer, of the spiritually-practical-variety of pioneers.
Horacio
Are SO Staff Unknowingly Taking Mind-altering Drugs?
- Thread starter Demented LRH
- Start date
Once upon a time, in a far away land, the idea that the world was not flat, but was round, was crazy stuff also.
Arnie is a pioneer, of the spiritually-practical-variety of pioneers.
Horacio
Free to shine
Shiny & Free
It's not just Sea Org and I for one am interesting in outside contributing factors.
degraded being
Sponsor
Demented, Are you Taking Mind-altering Drugs?
Honestly, some of your posts here are so off-the-wall and so full of glaring holes, as to factual knowledge about scientology and the Sea Org life, I really wonder if you are "Taking Mind-altering Drugs" yourself or just theorising about these things because you enjoy the sight of your own pixels.
Is there anyone in the physical universe (apart from knowledgeable cousins who can posthumously determine that "Ron was a Retard" or a friend who "saw Ron in his coffin" etc) who can vouch for or confirm your actual participation in scientology/SO in this Universe? I don't mean outting your name or anything, just someone who might say something like, "Oh yeah, I knew Demented in the SO, he was a real hoot!"?
Actually I can probably vouch for Demented LRH. I did indeed know a "Demented" public, A Demented Org staff, and A Demented SO member, in fact I knew several in each category. I did know an LRH too, although not personally, and he was the most Demented. Does this help?
degraded being
Sponsor
.
.
Whatever.
I know that if I had been on the SO diet, the rpf diet, along with the sleep deprivation, my memory would be well and truly fucked! and I would have PTSD also.
Actually I did have memory problems but do not now.....so writing memory problems off as inevitable with aging and not reversible, may not be the best thing to do in all cases. Some of my memory problems were quite bad, but not now. They could have been caused by scientology in a round-a-bout way, which I cannot be bothered going into.
(Scientology + medical). Should I be bothering with this? Is it a troll thread/
.
Whatever.
I know that if I had been on the SO diet, the rpf diet, along with the sleep deprivation, my memory would be well and truly fucked! and I would have PTSD also.
Actually I did have memory problems but do not now.....so writing memory problems off as inevitable with aging and not reversible, may not be the best thing to do in all cases. Some of my memory problems were quite bad, but not now. They could have been caused by scientology in a round-a-bout way, which I cannot be bothered going into.
(Scientology + medical). Should I be bothering with this? Is it a troll thread/
Gadfly
Crusader
Yes.. It's also known as hubbardian mindboggling or 'tech', admin, auditing and pavlovian dogtraining in Hubturd's philosophy and cosmology.. Inverted logic on very basic 'spiritual' levels.
And actually all that shit looks much more risky and dangerous when you realize that it was done without any additional remedies.
I love this new term for Scientology involvement (indoctrination) - DOG TRAINING.
It is just SO appropriate! Hubbard managed to get all these people jumping through hoops, over and over, day after day, year in and year out. He was a master at behavioral manipulation. He sure knew how to get those humans "responding" exactly how he wanted to.
I like it as much as TAJ's apt description for Hubbard's - um, cough - "philosophy".
What TAJ describes as MUSINGS!!!!!!!
I would probably add "spewed musings".
The "data" just explodes forth from Hubbard like an immense FART CLOUD! Or like puke.
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
Mimsey Borogrove
Crusader
It is a well known fact beans are a hallucinogenic - they are not called the magic fruit for nothing. Just eat a steady diet of rice and beans and enter a sort of twilight zone where invisible sp's lurk around the corner, like gremlins, crashing stats, causing the pc's and students to fade away till the halls are empty and the echo's of the mimeograph machine printing golden rod is the only sound you hear.
Spooky stuff.
Mimsey
clamicide
Gold Meritorious Patron
uh, interesting? I would not be shocked by anything perpetrated by Scio, but I know a lot of us who came from regular ole orgs wound up with some amnesia. And, we weren't fed by the org.
I kind of think the whole processing and training, and forcefully "brought into present time" contributed to this; and if we had something that went wrong, we needed to find withholds that would justify why things went so bad... on staff, we had no contact with anyone outside, so it was pretty hard to find a terminal to be PTS to.... it came down to overts.
This bizarre environment led to people creating a different history in some ways--creating a 'cult personality'. As a staff member, your own truthful response was a lie, so I think that a lot of folks would blank stuff out. There was so much cognitive dissonance, that it was necessary to forget things in order to survive. So this at org level going on pretty much rules out the drug thing...
The mind-altering drug was Scientology. but, like I said... nothing would surprise me ever when it comes to the cult... so, let the conspiracy theories begin when it comes to the SO...
I kind of think the whole processing and training, and forcefully "brought into present time" contributed to this; and if we had something that went wrong, we needed to find withholds that would justify why things went so bad... on staff, we had no contact with anyone outside, so it was pretty hard to find a terminal to be PTS to.... it came down to overts.
This bizarre environment led to people creating a different history in some ways--creating a 'cult personality'. As a staff member, your own truthful response was a lie, so I think that a lot of folks would blank stuff out. There was so much cognitive dissonance, that it was necessary to forget things in order to survive. So this at org level going on pretty much rules out the drug thing...
The mind-altering drug was Scientology. but, like I said... nothing would surprise me ever when it comes to the cult... so, let the conspiracy theories begin when it comes to the SO...
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
I think this might be helpful, or not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressed_memory
I was trained that people often disassociate during traumatic events, and that they may also suppress memories of past traumas. This is not quite the same thing as global amnesia.
More about disassociation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)
I hope this is helpful.
My former Ex SO friend told me that people crave auditing on the e-meter...will go to great lengths to continue it, and that they seem to go into a kind of withdrawl when suddenly denied it, just like an addiction to a drug. Maybe it's just a psychological dependance and not a physical one...either way, dependance seems to be there for those people who "crave" it!
Once he did it for hours and when he stopped, his blood pressure was sky high, higher than ever before in his life. He felt that if he hadn't stopped, he might have had a stroke. Here's the thing...he didn't want to stop, had to force himself to stop.
I have had personal experience with a TENS unit, a prescription is needed to get one...it's not a stretch to think that the electric current from the e-meter might have similar effects.
I stopped using a TENS unit because I was concerned about cellular damage over time, and overgrowth of cells. I would not use an e-meter during counseling (or meditation) if you paid me to do it.
I'm in Arnie's camp on this one. I think the process is harmful. If using a TENS unit can and does produce "neuromodulation", than why can't using and abusing an e-meter do so as well??? I don't see much difference.
Here's way more than you want to know about the effects of TENS:
"The currently proposed mechanisms by which TENS produces neuromodulation include the following:
Presynaptic inhibition in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord
Endogenous pain control (via endorphins, enkephalins, and dynorphins)
Direct inhibition of an abnormally excited nerve
Restoration of afferent input
The results of laboratory studies suggest that electrical stimulation delivered by a TENS unit reduces pain through nociceptive inhibition at the presynaptic level in the dorsal horn, thus limiting its central transmission. The electrical stimuli on the skin preferentially activate low-threshold, myelinated nerve fibers. The afferent input from these fibers inhibits propagation of nociception carried in the small, unmyelinated C fibers by blocking transmission along these fibers to the target or T cells located in the substantia gelatinosa (laminae 2 and 3) of the dorsal horn.
Studies show marked increases in beta endorphin and met-enkephalin with low-frequency TENS, with demonstrated reversal of the antinociceptive effects by naloxone. These effects have been postulated to be mediated through micro-opioid receptors. Research indicates, however, that high-frequency TENS analgesia is not reversed by naloxone, implicating a naloxone-resistant, dynorphin-binding receptor. A sample of cerebral spinal fluid in those subjects demonstrated increased levels of dynorphin A.
The mechanism of the analgesia produced by TENS is explained by the gate-control theory proposed by Melzack and Wall in 1965. The gate usually is closed, inhibiting constant nociceptive transmission via C fibers from the periphery to the T cell. When painful peripheral stimulation occurs, however, the information carried by C fibers reaches the T cells and opens the gate, allowing pain transmission centrally to the thalamus and cortex, where it is interpreted as pain. The gate-control theory postulates a mechanism by which the gate is closed again, preventing further central transmission of the nociceptive information to the cortex. The proposed mechanism for closing the gate is inhibition of the C-fiber nociception by impulses in activated myelinated fibers."
From: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/325107-overview
And
"Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) is the use of electric current produced by a device to stimulate the nerves for therapeutic purposes. TENS by definition covers the complete range of transcutaneously applied currents used for nerve excitation although the term is often used with a more restrictive intent, namely to describe the kind of pulses produced by portable stimulators used to treat pain.
The unit is usually connected to the skin using two or more electrodes. A typical battery-operated TENS unit is able to modulate pulse width, frequency and intensity. Generally TENS is applied at high frequency (>50 Hz) with an intensity below motor contraction (sensory intensity) or low frequency (<10 Hz) with an intensity that produces motor contraction. The benefit of TENS for pain is controversial."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation
I was trained that people often disassociate during traumatic events, and that they may also suppress memories of past traumas. This is not quite the same thing as global amnesia.
More about disassociation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)
I hope this is helpful.
My former Ex SO friend told me that people crave auditing on the e-meter...will go to great lengths to continue it, and that they seem to go into a kind of withdrawl when suddenly denied it, just like an addiction to a drug. Maybe it's just a psychological dependance and not a physical one...either way, dependance seems to be there for those people who "crave" it!
Once he did it for hours and when he stopped, his blood pressure was sky high, higher than ever before in his life. He felt that if he hadn't stopped, he might have had a stroke. Here's the thing...he didn't want to stop, had to force himself to stop.
I have had personal experience with a TENS unit, a prescription is needed to get one...it's not a stretch to think that the electric current from the e-meter might have similar effects.
I stopped using a TENS unit because I was concerned about cellular damage over time, and overgrowth of cells. I would not use an e-meter during counseling (or meditation) if you paid me to do it.
I'm in Arnie's camp on this one. I think the process is harmful. If using a TENS unit can and does produce "neuromodulation", than why can't using and abusing an e-meter do so as well??? I don't see much difference.
Here's way more than you want to know about the effects of TENS:
"The currently proposed mechanisms by which TENS produces neuromodulation include the following:
Presynaptic inhibition in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord
Endogenous pain control (via endorphins, enkephalins, and dynorphins)
Direct inhibition of an abnormally excited nerve
Restoration of afferent input
The results of laboratory studies suggest that electrical stimulation delivered by a TENS unit reduces pain through nociceptive inhibition at the presynaptic level in the dorsal horn, thus limiting its central transmission. The electrical stimuli on the skin preferentially activate low-threshold, myelinated nerve fibers. The afferent input from these fibers inhibits propagation of nociception carried in the small, unmyelinated C fibers by blocking transmission along these fibers to the target or T cells located in the substantia gelatinosa (laminae 2 and 3) of the dorsal horn.
Studies show marked increases in beta endorphin and met-enkephalin with low-frequency TENS, with demonstrated reversal of the antinociceptive effects by naloxone. These effects have been postulated to be mediated through micro-opioid receptors. Research indicates, however, that high-frequency TENS analgesia is not reversed by naloxone, implicating a naloxone-resistant, dynorphin-binding receptor. A sample of cerebral spinal fluid in those subjects demonstrated increased levels of dynorphin A.
The mechanism of the analgesia produced by TENS is explained by the gate-control theory proposed by Melzack and Wall in 1965. The gate usually is closed, inhibiting constant nociceptive transmission via C fibers from the periphery to the T cell. When painful peripheral stimulation occurs, however, the information carried by C fibers reaches the T cells and opens the gate, allowing pain transmission centrally to the thalamus and cortex, where it is interpreted as pain. The gate-control theory postulates a mechanism by which the gate is closed again, preventing further central transmission of the nociceptive information to the cortex. The proposed mechanism for closing the gate is inhibition of the C-fiber nociception by impulses in activated myelinated fibers."
From: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/325107-overview
And
"Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) is the use of electric current produced by a device to stimulate the nerves for therapeutic purposes. TENS by definition covers the complete range of transcutaneously applied currents used for nerve excitation although the term is often used with a more restrictive intent, namely to describe the kind of pulses produced by portable stimulators used to treat pain.
The unit is usually connected to the skin using two or more electrodes. A typical battery-operated TENS unit is able to modulate pulse width, frequency and intensity. Generally TENS is applied at high frequency (>50 Hz) with an intensity below motor contraction (sensory intensity) or low frequency (<10 Hz) with an intensity that produces motor contraction. The benefit of TENS for pain is controversial."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation
Kookaburra
Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the memory loss may be a result of the poor food combined with the sleep deprivation. During my last year and a half in the SO I don't think I got more than 5 hours sleep on any given night, except maybe Christmas day. Every once in a while they'd throw in a week of beans and rice instead of food. I was a walking zombie, literally, at times it took extreme effort just to prevent the body from falling over. That left maybe 10% of brainpower to do everything else. It certainly is not a formula for efficiency! I would probably had trouble remembering my own name on some days. Finally, my nervous system went nuts. The doctors at Shaw thought I had MS. I got sent to emergency at the hospital and got a heap of tests and saw a neurologist. The diagnosis----tired. :confused2:
It took a long time (years) to physically recover enough to lead a somewhat normal life. The idea of going short on sleep was terrifying, and if I did have a night cut short I'd have hell to pay the next day. I've been out now for 21 years and it still scares me to go without sleep. And my memory is not all that crash hot.
I read somewhere an experiment on sleep deprivation. A DJ wanted to see if he could go a week without sleep. He did, with people there to keep waking him up, but he was mentally a mess at the end of it. He had personality changes, all for the worse, and he never got his old self back. Ended up losing his job and his wife. Life turned to shit. He never recovered.
It took a long time (years) to physically recover enough to lead a somewhat normal life. The idea of going short on sleep was terrifying, and if I did have a night cut short I'd have hell to pay the next day. I've been out now for 21 years and it still scares me to go without sleep. And my memory is not all that crash hot.
I read somewhere an experiment on sleep deprivation. A DJ wanted to see if he could go a week without sleep. He did, with people there to keep waking him up, but he was mentally a mess at the end of it. He had personality changes, all for the worse, and he never got his old self back. Ended up losing his job and his wife. Life turned to shit. He never recovered.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Good point, Kookaburra!
Here's more info on the consequences of sleep deprivation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/
Here's more info on the consequences of sleep deprivation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/
Demented LRH
Patron Meritorious
Well said, Bill the Troll!
Demented LRH
Patron Meritorious
Panda, as always, you talk in generalities. So far you were not able to prove me wrong on a single occassion.
Other than saying that the research showing that the engrams do not exist is faulty, you were unable to prove that it is incorrect.
I understand how frustrating that is.
Rather than doing an empty talk, try to prove me wrong at least once.
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
You're kidding, right?
I try not to pick things to pieces, we each have our own opinions and take on things but seeing as how you asked...
You have been so wrong so many times I've lost count.
First there was your idea that the CofS secretly owned all WISE businesses and that this was the main source of CofS income. I discussed that with you on OCMB and until I told you about it you had no clue about the actual cost of OT7 or the L Rundowns. Your theory about CofS income was just plain wrong.
Secondly there is this NYU Study "disproving" engrams which you count as irrefutable but you seem to be completely unaware of the fact that the drug used to produce the "unconsciousness" is one that, per Dianetic Theory, interferes with the subject's ability to create "mental image pictures". An element of the experiment influenced the outcome of the experiment. I was hoping you'd investigate and figure it out for yourself. There were other things wrong with the experiment but I'll leave it at that.
Thirdly, there was your assertion about Hubbard's IQ which is based on some sort of hinky posthumous evaluation that makes some of Hubbard's imaginings seem positively sane by comparison. Despite actual first hand testimony to the contrary from someone who actually spent considerable Face time with Hubbard you insist on forwarding this flawed theory about Hubbard's IQ.
Fourthly, you spoke of a "friend" who saw Hubbard in his non-existent coffin at his never-happened funeral receiving a "Go OT" message from Hubbard. I saw the back-pedalling about this but, seriously, wtf?
Fifthly, you're talking on this thread about mind-altering drugs being added to food by an organisation that can't even afford proper food, let alone mind-altering drugs to include.
Sixthly, I can't really be bothered rehashing some of the other things that made me think the following;
Your theories about Hubbard and scientology leave me thinking that you must have been involved in a different scientology in some alternate universe, that's why I asked if there was anyone who might verify your story.
My position is; there's so much wrong with scientology, there's no need to make shit up!
I try not to pick things to pieces, we each have our own opinions and take on things but seeing as how you asked...
You have been so wrong so many times I've lost count.
First there was your idea that the CofS secretly owned all WISE businesses and that this was the main source of CofS income. I discussed that with you on OCMB and until I told you about it you had no clue about the actual cost of OT7 or the L Rundowns. Your theory about CofS income was just plain wrong.
Secondly there is this NYU Study "disproving" engrams which you count as irrefutable but you seem to be completely unaware of the fact that the drug used to produce the "unconsciousness" is one that, per Dianetic Theory, interferes with the subject's ability to create "mental image pictures". An element of the experiment influenced the outcome of the experiment. I was hoping you'd investigate and figure it out for yourself. There were other things wrong with the experiment but I'll leave it at that.
Thirdly, there was your assertion about Hubbard's IQ which is based on some sort of hinky posthumous evaluation that makes some of Hubbard's imaginings seem positively sane by comparison. Despite actual first hand testimony to the contrary from someone who actually spent considerable Face time with Hubbard you insist on forwarding this flawed theory about Hubbard's IQ.
Fourthly, you spoke of a "friend" who saw Hubbard in his non-existent coffin at his never-happened funeral receiving a "Go OT" message from Hubbard. I saw the back-pedalling about this but, seriously, wtf?
Fifthly, you're talking on this thread about mind-altering drugs being added to food by an organisation that can't even afford proper food, let alone mind-altering drugs to include.
Sixthly, I can't really be bothered rehashing some of the other things that made me think the following;
Your theories about Hubbard and scientology leave me thinking that you must have been involved in a different scientology in some alternate universe, that's why I asked if there was anyone who might verify your story.
My position is; there's so much wrong with scientology, there's no need to make shit up!
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
Chronic stress (lack of sleep, anxiety, work demands, crappy food, maybe even some electrical stimulation..or being constantly harangued by idiots....) all fit as part of the brainwashing regimin. Elevated stress levels raises cortisol levels, chronic high cortisol levels literally make some grey matter dissappear...damaging the hypothalamus, the seat of memory.
Google Cortisol, stress, damage
But I bet there were lots of metered sec-checks....
strongly agree..
The real facts on the ground are usually stranger than anything anyone (who is not a paranoid schizophrenic) are even capable of imagining...
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Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
I have measured a TENS, a neuro-stim 2000, Ida Camburn gave the unit to me to evaluate in 1997, using oscilloscope and I had an E-meter - and the actual amount of power applied to the body by the TENS pain killing machines, is ONE TENTH the total electrical power that the E-meter gives you.
Stick that into any doubting pipes and have'em smoke it.
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great points. LRH knew he could fuck with people's memories. He touched on it in DMSMH. He talked about other people telling you what happened in your life and how this clouded your memories. Basically you are having other people's ideas as your memories. When I routed off staff I had to go to Sydney. I signed a document that said my conduct was not befitting a Scientologist and that they had helped me in many ways. But you know, even though I signed it.....I know the truth. And it ain't their ideas.
Arthur Dent
Silver Meritorious Patron
Ummm, well, there was the LSD on the toothpaste incident.... An ISOLATED INCIDENT, I'm sure! Given their obsession and paranoia with the subject of PDH, did we ever suspect them? Could be onto something here... 
Seriously, sleep and nutrition deprivation is enough of a mind-number, throw in daily and relentless brain-washing and invalidation and voila!!
I had a big problem with memory at one point in auditing. It took a lot of unraveling. It was due to a gestapo-type ethics cycle some years before that forced decisions that, in an ordinary course of living, wouldn't have happened.
Things like that jam up your thinking process, memory, all of it. It finally got sorted out and I was able to put the pieces together and recall much more clearly what had happened. It had been extremely upsetting and, after much work, I was chilled out now.
After finishing my auditing, next stop ethics. While sitting and waiting to be seen I notice someone watching me. This guy asked my name and I told him (Arthur Dent) and he said he'd been wondering for years what happened to me. I didn't even recognize him but he was the gestapo asshole. He'd been RPFd immediately after his handling of me. (Gee no one ever told me they figured out it was wrong!)
He'd since left the sea org and was unrecognizable. Calm, happy looking guy, had a family now, a nice business. If only I'd run into him before the auditing, we could have had a beer and solved my memory just fine! I was happy for him and his ability to evolve.
The S.O. can not afford to drug their peeps. They give them just enough sleep and food to keep them upright and mentally challenged to stay in the dark, do their jobs and not ask questions. It is an experiment in a controlled environment. They wouldn't mess with that!
Seriously, sleep and nutrition deprivation is enough of a mind-number, throw in daily and relentless brain-washing and invalidation and voila!!
I had a big problem with memory at one point in auditing. It took a lot of unraveling. It was due to a gestapo-type ethics cycle some years before that forced decisions that, in an ordinary course of living, wouldn't have happened.
Things like that jam up your thinking process, memory, all of it. It finally got sorted out and I was able to put the pieces together and recall much more clearly what had happened. It had been extremely upsetting and, after much work, I was chilled out now.
After finishing my auditing, next stop ethics. While sitting and waiting to be seen I notice someone watching me. This guy asked my name and I told him (Arthur Dent) and he said he'd been wondering for years what happened to me. I didn't even recognize him but he was the gestapo asshole. He'd been RPFd immediately after his handling of me. (Gee no one ever told me they figured out it was wrong!)
He'd since left the sea org and was unrecognizable. Calm, happy looking guy, had a family now, a nice business. If only I'd run into him before the auditing, we could have had a beer and solved my memory just fine! I was happy for him and his ability to evolve.
The S.O. can not afford to drug their peeps. They give them just enough sleep and food to keep them upright and mentally challenged to stay in the dark, do their jobs and not ask questions. It is an experiment in a controlled environment. They wouldn't mess with that!
We have done spectral analysis on the food used at the Scientology ship because we suspected that certain hallucinogenic drugs were used during the OT auditing.
We have tested the food intended for the ship passengers for 3 hallucinogenic substances (I am not going to tell the names of these substances because I do not want the OSA monitors to know what we were looking for).
We have not found any of these substances in the food. However, this does not mean that the food is free from the hallucinogens -- we have found in it one substance that we were unable to identify. This is not unusual -- spectral analysis does not always lead to identification of all ingredients due to the lack of spectral data on many substances (these substances are not on the spectral analysis charts).
In principle, we can analyze the Sea Org food as well.
We have tested the food intended for the ship passengers for 3 hallucinogenic substances (I am not going to tell the names of these substances because I do not want the OSA monitors to know what we were looking for).
We have not found any of these substances in the food. However, this does not mean that the food is free from the hallucinogens -- we have found in it one substance that we were unable to identify. This is not unusual -- spectral analysis does not always lead to identification of all ingredients due to the lack of spectral data on many substances (these substances are not on the spectral analysis charts).
In principle, we can analyze the Sea Org food as well.
Demented LRH
Patron Meritorious
I corrected myself regarding my friend's remarks about "Hubbard's body". The rest of my assertions you simply cannot understand.
You had many chances to discuss the engram issue at another thread, but you refused. I am not going to discuss it now. But if you are willing to bring back the thread "Is Scientology all Wrong?", I will have a discussion with you at that thread.
Although you are not a Scientologist, some parts of the doctrine are dear to you, if "dear" is a right word. I do not waste my time trying to convince people like you that Scientology is ALL wrong. It is not my responsibility to save you from the wrong ideas that were installed in you by Hubbard and his followers. You chose to keep those ideas, you are solely resposible for your inability to tell the knoowledge from the quackery.
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