Are SO Staff Unknowingly Taking Mind-altering Drugs?

[DagwoodGum]

Yeah, many years ago my dad got chiropractic electrical therapy for a knee injury (that seemed to work) but never said that it changed his mind about anything other than the therapy.

What is your point?

"What is your point?"?!? That you would ask that after all of this would make my point be, that there is no point in continuing a dialog such as this with you. Re-read the thread from its beginning and provide me with a brief report on what you've understood as well as what you haven't understood and then we'll go over it, possibly with Arnie if he's willing. If not, just you and I will go over it. Make certain that you word clear anything that comes up in the links then, like I said, we'll go over it painstakingly if need be.

 

[Dulloldfart]

there is something to this. how much? I couldn't say... it would take a lab to determine that.

note: The lowest frequency of them all is direct current...

A TENS unit delivers a pulsed current (2 to 150 Hz) powered by a 9 volt battery. An e-meter delivers an unpulsed (0 Hz) current powered by a (what? 3 volt?) battery. A TENS unit may begin to produce endorphins after 30 minutes use (per http://www.promolife.com/cart/health-articles/pain-relief-articles/electrical-stimulation ).

You have been asserting this wild-ass theory with no evidence cited whatsoever to support it beyond the similarities above, that I have seen anyway.

I glanced through a paper at http://www.acupuncturesociety.co.uk/pdf/research/acu and endorphins.pdf. It discusses how the production of endorphins (in electro-acupuncture) changes markedly with frequency, and how most electro-acupuncture machines alternate between 2 Hz and 100 Hz.

So, Arnie, you must have spent more time on this than I have. Do you have any evidence that endorphins are produced by 0 Hz/direct current stimulation?

Paul

 

[Gadfly]

A TENS unit delivers a pulsed current (2 to 150 Hz) powered by a 9 volt battery. An e-meter delivers an unpulsed (0 Hz) current powered by a (what? 3 volt?) battery. A TENS unit may begin to produce endorphins after 30 minutes use (per http://www.promolife.com/cart/health-articles/pain-relief-articles/electrical-stimulation ).

You have been asserting this wild-ass theory with no evidence cited whatsoever to support it beyond the similarities above, that I have seen anyway.

I glanced through a paper at http://www.acupuncturesociety.co.uk/pdf/research/acu and endorphins.pdf. It discusses how the production of endorphins (in electro-acupuncture) changes markedly with frequency, and how most electro-acupuncture machines alternate between 2 Hz and 100 Hz.

So, Arnie, you must have spent more time on this than I have. Do you have any evidence that endorphins are produced by 0 Hz/direct current stimulation?

Paul

Doesn't Hulda's zapper spit out about 30K off of a 9v battery?

Any evidence that this gadget has a similar effect?

I built and experimented with one many years ago, and as I recall there was some minor mental effect (calming sort of).

 

[DagwoodGum]

Doesn't Hulda's zapper spit out about 30K off of a 9v battery?

Any evidence that this gadget has a similar effect?

I built and experimented with one many years ago, and as I recall there was some minor mental effect (calming sort of).

Probably people respond differently to different energy currents. Some may release endorphins faster on one device than another. Just look at women as opposed to men on the emeter, they run around 2.0 on the dial versus 3.0 for men. If you have leads I'll Fed Ex you my old Mark whatever the fuck emeter as I can't find the leads and you can try watching your favorite movie holding the cans, then your least favorite and then tell us if their was a difference in the buzz. By the way I've got an old Don Croft zapper, my first foray into zappers, and 2 Hulda Clarks. The Don Croft actually gives me skin burns it puts out so much juice, with the Clark models you can feel the current but it's much milder.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Doesn't Hulda's zapper spit out about 30K off of a 9v battery?

Any evidence that this gadget has a similar effect?

I built and experimented with one many years ago, and as I recall there was some minor mental effect (calming sort of).

Yes, with a zapper there is definitely a calming effect, I find. But it lasts for days, whereas the endorphin production is much, much shorter, sometimes only while the TENS device is operating. In other words, there is more going on with Clark's zapper than endorphin production.

A standard Clark circuit generates about 30kHz off a 9v battery. This prototype Music Zapper (audio-programmed zapper) will zap at whatever (audio range) frequency you feed into it. It's great fun to play with and you can really feel those low frequencies (Led Zeppelin etc) vibrating through your wrists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lIUz3A1Rs

 

[DagwoodGum]

Yes, with a zapper there is definitely a calming effect, I find. But it lasts for days, whereas the endorphin production is much, much shorter, sometimes only while the TENS device is operating. In other words, there is more going on with Clark's zapper than endorphin production.

A standard Clark circuit generates about 30kHz off a 9v battery. This prototype Music Zapper (audio-programmed zapper) will zap at whatever (audio range) frequency you feed into it. It's great fun to play with and you can really feel those low frequencies (Led Zeppelin etc) vibrating through your wrists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lIUz3A1Rs

OK, I give up, where do you get one of those? You mentioned this quite a while back and I couldn't find one then either. The bit about feeling Led Zeppelin and those low frequencies vibrating through your wrists hooks me in. How much do these cost?

 

[Dulloldfart]

OK, I give up, where do you get one of those? You mentioned this quite a while back and I couldn't find one then either. The bit about feeling Led Zeppelin and those low frequencies vibrating through your wrists hooks me in. How much do these cost?

http://zapper.wikia.com/wiki/Audio-Programmed_Zapper tells you how to build one, complete with circuit diagram. The person who designed and built it is a friend of mine. As far as I know, there are only two such zappers in existence.

He also has a web site about it at http://audioprogrammedzapper.com. I see he has a more advanced version now than the one I have.

Paul

 

[MrNobody]

Doesn't Hulda's zapper spit out about 30K off of a 9v battery?

Any evidence that this gadget has a similar effect?

I built and experimented with one many years ago, and as I recall there was some minor mental effect (calming sort of).

I don't know and I don't care what Hulda's Zapper does or doesn't do, but why do you (and Paul) bring up a relation between voltage and frequency?

Voltage and and frequency don't have much to do with each other, in this case. You can get almost any frequency, no matter how low or high, from almost any source of electrical energy. AC can be made from DC and vice versa, and an AC Voltage of any frequency can be boosted to a strength (amperage) that could be used for Zapping which, depending on the amperage, might be either allegedly healthy/beneficial or certainly unhealthy/deadly.

So what are you guys trying to do here? Bullshitting?

ps:
Ghee, I'd love to zap both of you with an almost empty 1.5 Volt battery at whatever Frequency you wish.

 

[DagwoodGum]

http://zapper.wikia.com/wiki/Audio-Programmed_Zapper tells you how to build one, complete with circuit diagram. The person who designed and built it is a friend of mine. As far as I know, there are only two such zappers in existence.

He also has a web site about it at http://audioprogrammedzapper.com. I see he has a more advanced version now than the one I have.

Paul

Thanks but I'd already found those sites, so I guess I'd have to build one. That's too bad as I'm not an electronics guy enough that I'd want to try tackling it. Thanks though, explains why I've never been able to find them for sale.

 

[DagwoodGum]

I don't know and I don't care what Hulda's Zapper does or doesn't do, but why do you (and Paul) bring up a relation between voltage and frequency?

Voltage and and frequency don't have much to do with each other, in this case. You can get almost any frequency, no matter how low or high, from almost any source of electrical energy. AC can be made from DC and vice versa, and an AC Voltage of any frequency can be boosted to a strength (amperage) that could be used for Zapping which, depending on the amperage, might be either allegedly healthy/beneficial or certainly unhealthy/deadly.

So what are you guys trying to do here? Bullshitting?

ps:
Ghee, I'd love to zap both of you with an almost empty 1.5 Volt battery at whatever Frequency you wish.

To intercede here if I may, they are merely referencing the specs as they are detailed in the reference materials provided by the manufacturers. Here's an example: http://zapper.wikia.com/wiki/Audio-Programmed_Zapper

 

[Dulloldfart]

Thanks but I'd already found those sites, so I guess I'd have to build one. That's too bad as I'm not an electronics guy enough that I'd want to try tackling it. Thanks though, explains why I've never been able to find them for sale.

OK. I just e-mailed the guy and he's not likely to have any more built for several months.

Paul

 

[DagwoodGum]

OK. I just e-mailed the guy and he's not likely to have any more built for several months.

Paul

Great! Would it be possible for me to acquire one? And what ballpark figure are we talking cost wise Paul?

 

[Gadfly]

I don't know and I don't care what Hulda's Zapper does or doesn't do, but why do you (and Paul) bring up a relation between voltage and frequency?

Voltage and and frequency don't have much to do with each other, in this case. You can get almost any frequency, no matter how low or high, from almost any source of electrical energy. AC can be made from DC and vice versa, and an AC Voltage of any frequency can be boosted to a strength (amperage) that could be used for Zapping which, depending on the amperage, might be either allegedly healthy/beneficial or certainly unhealthy/deadly.

So what are you guys trying to do here? Bullshitting?

ps:
Ghee, I'd love to zap both of you with an almost empty 1.5 Volt battery at whatever Frequency you wish.

What? I am sorry, but in this case YOU are the IDIOT!

Geez, I only have a degree in electrical engineering.

The POWER is GREATER if you have a frequency with a HIGHER VOLTAGE.

I built these neat little boxes when I was in elementary school. It was based off of a doorbell electro-magnetic setup, which cycled on and off at about 10-15 times per second. I would put it in a little box, with a 1.5 volt battery, and put a note on it "don't pick me up".

There was tin foil around the box, but TWO conductors, one coming from the barttery negative, and the other from the positive AFTER it ran through the doorbell.

People would get a BIG SHOCK. They didn't think it was funny, but I sure did!

Now, if you put a 9 volt battery in there (which I of course tried), WHAM, you got an even WORSE shock.

The doorbell made the current shut on and off at about 10-15 times per second. That turns the battery's DC voltage into alternating current (AC).

Now, home 120 volt AC current cycles on and off at about 60 times per second, but with 120 VOLTS. Try sticking a screw driver into each cobtact of a wall outlet, and hold onto each metal piece. You will notice a big difference (I also tried THAT when I was a kid - I actually sort of "liked" the jolt . . . . :confused2. I was always an "experimenter" - about many different things.

The point is that a frequency can have ANY voltage pushing it, but a greater voltage will have more "strength". I am curious if anyone has tried zappers with different size potentials (voltages), and if it made any difference. I suppose you could build one that plugged into a wall, and had 120 volts zapping you at 30K! Aggggh!

Take a powerful laser. It is the "same light" as a light bulb emits, BUT it is focused and a great deal more VOLTAGE and POWER are behind it.

 

[MrNobody]

To intercede here if I may, they are merely referencing the specs as they are detailed in the reference materials provided by the manufacturers. Here's an example: http://zapper.wikia.com/wiki/Audio-Programmed_Zapper

Thanks for that information, but since Paul already posted it, I already had it. :wink2:

Anyway, while you were digging up this useful link, I did study the circuit diagram:

1 LM324 Quad OpAmp
1 555 Timer/Oscillator
1 2N222
some Leds and a few resistors and some stuff that you can find in any electronics scrapyard.

I could build that crap in 1 weekend or less (if I had the time to do so), including a nice, sturdy wooden or metal casing of your choice, for probably less than 20 bucks, depending on your choice of casing.

Oh, and with a just few more equally cheap components, I could build you a nice little HiFi- or guitar-pre-amp out of it. Or an equalizer. And I'd still have the 555 IC left to build you a mediocre kitchen clock from it.

Seriously, for how much do they sell that ridiculous toy?

 

[DagwoodGum]

Thanks for that information, but since Paul already posted it, I already had it. :wink2:

Anyway, while you were digging up this useful link, I did study the circuit diagram:

1 LM324 Quad OpAmp
1 555 Timer/Oscillator
1 2N222
some Leds and a few resistors and some stuff that you can find in any electronics scrapyard.

I could build that crap in 1 weekend or less (if I had the time to do so), including a nice, sturdy wooden or metal casing of your choice, for probably less than 20 bucks, depending on your choice of casing.

Oh, and with a just few more equally cheap components, I could build you a nice little HiFi- or guitar-pre-amp out of it. Or an equalizer. And I'd still have the 555 IC left to build you a mediocre kitchen clock from it.

Seriously, for how much do they sell that ridiculous toy?

I'm trying to find out the cost as I'd certainly be interested in acquiring one even if it is a toy. Some toys I like.

 

[Gadfly]

Seriously, for how much do they sell that ridiculous toy?

I built one about 20 years ago for less than $10 in parts.

Here's one on eBay for $9.95 . . . .

World's Smallest Hulda Clark Zapper - 30kHz

 

[AlphOhm]

there are some versions which don't even require batteries...

 

[Gadfly]

I'm trying to find out the cost as I'd certainly be interested in acquiring one even if it is a toy. Some toys I like.

The basic zapper is super simple, from http://www.zapperlab.com/

Search online for "hulda zapper" or "zapper circuit", and the design is easy to find.

Heck, I probably have all or most of the parts in my "electronics parts drawer".

Here is a basic schematic from http://www.zapperwise.com/e_schema_clark.html

 

[MrNobody]

What? I am sorry, but in this case YOU are the IDIOT!

Well, so what? I am what I am, and if you want to call me an idiot, so be it.

Geez, I only have a degree in electrical engineering.

I don't have any degrees worth to mention, but I seriously doubt that you have that degree. But help this little idiot outta here, how does that old little formula go? Is it Volt * Ampere or is it Volt * frequency?

The POWER is GREATER if you have a frequency with a HIGHER VOLTAGE.

Well, when you have DC, voltage * amperage can certainly have some effects, depending on the amount of volts and amperes. Same is certainly true for AC, and the overall amount of energy flowing through a conductor may change with frequency, but will it b4e more energy than with DC? Come on you little experet, lighten me up.

I built these neat little boxes when I was in elementary school. It was based off of a doorbell electro-magnetic setup, which cycled on and off at about 10-15 times per second. I would put it in a little box, with a 1.5 volt battery, and put a note on it "don't pick me up".

Did you use the 555 IC or so, or did you build it the traditional way?

There was tin foil around the box, but TWO conductors, one coming from the barttery negative, and the other from the positive AFTER it ran through the doorbell.

People would get a BIG SHOCK. They didn't think it was funny, but I sure did!

Now, if you put a 9 volt battery in there (which I of course tried), WHAM, you got an even WORSE shock.

The doorbell made the current shut on and off at about 10-15 times per second.

So you mean 10-15 Hertz, right?

That turns the battery's DC voltage into alternating current (AC).

Nooo, say what?

Now, home 120 volt AC current cycles on and off at about 60 times per second, but with 120 VOLTS. Try sticking a screw driver into each cobtact of a wall outlet, and hold onto each metal piece. You will notice a big difference (I also tried THAT when I was a kid - I actually sort of "liked" the jolt . . . . :confused2. I was always an "experimenter" - about many different things.

The point is that a frequency can have ANY voltage pushing it, but a greater voltage will have more "strength". I am curious if anyone has tried zappers with different size potentials (voltages), and if it made any difference. I suppose you could build one that plugged into a wall, and had 120 volts zapping you at 30K! Aggggh!

See? This is why i doubt that you have any degree in that field. You wouldn't even feel 120 Volts AC or DC, no matter what frequency, if there weren't an appropriate amount of Amperes behind it.

Take a powerful laser. It is the "same light" as a light bulb emits, BUT it is focused and a great deal more VOLTAGE and POWER are behind it.

Blah, Blah. Blah.

 

[Gadfly]

Blah, Blah. Blah.

Ohm's Law

V = I x R (Voltage = Current multiplied by Resistance)

If you take ANY voltage and connect it across a resistive element, a current will flow. The current is measured in amperes.

There is no "amperes behind" anything. That is playing with words.

Again, test it for yourself. Stick a screwdriver in each temrinal of the AC wall outlet and hold on tight! That is 60 cps at 120 volts. You WILL jump! Your body will act as the "resistive element", and current will flow through your body.

Electric power P = V × I (so the more voltage along with greater current means MORE power)

To be able to produce greater currents at the same resistance, and at the same voltage, you need a more POWERFUL battery (or source of the voltage). For example, a car battery is only a little more than a 9v radio battery (being 12 volts usually). But, a radio battery could NEVER start a car - it can't deliver enough current (amperes). Now, if you put THAT car battery in my little shock box - WATCH OUT!

There is a big difference between AC and DC in how it "feels". If you hold the two terminals of a 9V radio battery you won't feel anything (you will if you put it on your tongue). BUT, if you make the voltage switch and off (which changes it to AC), you will feel a BIG shock. That is why the little doorbell device works (yes, at 10-15 hertz).

[video=youtube;CWE9CRsuFnY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWE9CRsuFnY[/video]

120 volts AC is simply 120 volts DC that is being cycle on and off 120 times per second. Granted it switches from +120v to zero and then from zero to -120v (and back again).

This is what happens when a 9v battery is conencted to a doorbell circuit:

The voltage simply shuts on and off, zero back to 1 1/2 (or 9 for greater effect).

PS: I apologize Mr Nobody for calling you an idiot. I was an IDIOT for doing so. I am on my third (worse) day of stopping coffee and I am in a VERY BAD MOOD!!!!!

My bad.