Are the OT Levels Permanent?

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is something that I’ve wanted to ask for a while now. I suppose this question is really aimed at those people who have actually done and / or supervised the OT levels from OTIII to OTVII. What I’m after is what Hubbard says about these levels or what people have actually seen for themselves.

Since I have never done the OT levels, I’ve not had a chance to study all the data pertaining to them. But, I have read some of the theory behind these levels that was posted on the Net. I’ve also listened to audio recording that Hubbard made on the subject and read some of the discussions that Ex-Scientologists have engaged in.

My understanding (and feel free to correct me) is that Hubbard states that every human being has many thousands of invisible beings, known as Body Thetans (BTs) stuck to and possibly in, their bodies. These BTs are pretty much the same as ‘regular’ Thetans, but they had been so degraded as beings that they have no self-determinism and are unable to have their own identities and thus cannot exist as individuals like ordinary humans. These BTs can cause a variety of problems for the hosts ranging from all manner of physical ailments to behaving totally irrationally, committing crimes etc.

One of the major incidents causing these BTs to become degraded is Incident II of the OTIII story, which occurred 75 million years ago. At that time, an evil tyrant called Xenu (or possibly Xemu - Hubbard seems to use both spellings), caused a great catastrophe in which billions upon billions of beings were killed by blowing them up with Hydrogen bombs, after placing them in volcanoes on this planet. Immediately after dying, all the disembodied beings (Thetans) were caught by ‘electronic ribbons’ and implanted with false images and purposes in order to cause them to lose their self-determinism. Thus, many billions of these Thetans were left to float around aimlessly on this planet until life evolved, culminating in Homo Sapiens.

When we humans appeared on the scene, the Thetans gleefully attached themselves to us in their tens of thousands and have been causing mayhem ever since. Hubbard claimed to have discovered this fact, but at great personal danger to himself. In fact, he stated that he almost died while making this discovery and that this information was so dangerous that it would make anyone who learnt the truth before they were ready, very ill or even kill them!

Quite apart from sounding rather daft, there are many logical problems with this story. Firstly, Hubbard claimed that many billions of beings were transported to this planet in space planes that looked exactly like Douglas DC-8 jet airliners. For a start, why would a spaceship capable of interstellar travel need wings? Also, assuming a similar payload capacity, many billions of craft movements would be required to transport the countless billions (76 planets with an average population of 178 billion) to Earth. Not impossible, but rather impractical. Why not kill them and implant them in situ? And, if there were really 250 billion beings living on Earth, why have we found not trace of them? At the very least, we should surely have found artefacts or the remains of structures? If these did not survive, then surely this number of people would have required that all easily accessible minerals be mined from the Earth’s crust? This, we would have noticed. And, how could that number of beings be fed? The current population of this planet is around 6.7 billion and we have trouble feeding all those. How could 37 times that number survive?

Hubbard claimed to have created methods to remove these BTs from an individual, thus making that individual more ‘free’. The OT levels from OTIII through OTVII are all concerned with removing BTs, but from different angles.

After learning of all this, certain questions came to me, the main one being:

Are the OT levels permanent? When a person is cleared of all their BTs on OTVII, what is to stop many more BTs coming swarming in and attaching themselves to that person? Or, when a person dies and then subsequently picks up a new body, would they acquire a whole new set of BTs in much the same way that ‘ordinary’ people do when they are born?

Obviously it would be good business sense for the CoS if this happened as any returning OTs would have to do their OT levels again, but would be very tedious for that person.

And, while I’m at it, does anyone have any answers to these questions as well?

How many BTs does each person have?
Do BTs only attach themselves to people at birth, or at any other time as well?
As the Earth’s population keeps rising, does this mean that each person gets a smaller number of BTs each?
If Thetans could be trapped by various ‘electronic’ devices, would it be possible to create a machine that could zap them away from people, thus bypassing the OT levels?

Any answers gratefully received.

Axiom142
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
And, while I’m at it, does anyone have any answers to these questions as well?

1. How many BTs does each person have?
2. Do BTs only attach themselves to people at birth, or at any other time as well?
3. As the Earth’s population keeps rising, does this mean that each person gets a smaller number of BTs each?
4. If Thetans could be trapped by various ‘electronic’ devices, would it be possible to create a machine that could zap them away from people, thus bypassing the OT levels?
[Numbers added by Paul]

I'll give Hubbard's answers to these questions, as best I remember them.

1. In the OT3 pack, I believe he says "hundreds" of BTs per person. Obviously modified by NOTs and Solo NOTs practices, which would vastly inflate the number.

2. They attach to the thetan and/or the body. Many have been attached since Incident 2 or even Incident 1. Other incidents too. "Cluster-making" incidents can occur anywhere on the track. Not to forget earlier universes, although he's a bit shy on details here.

3. He doesn't comment on it. Speculate yourself.

4. Ditto.

I repeat, these are not MY answers to those questions!

Paul
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Are the OT levels permanent?

In a word, no. But once one has cottoned onto the benefits of having a cleanly washed face many people prefer to contine that mode rather than revert to their previous savage ways. (That's a poor analogy - don't take it too literally)


When a person is cleared of all their BTs on OTVII, what is to stop many more BTs coming swarming in and attaching themselves to that person?

Nothing.

Or, when a person dies and then subsequently picks up a new body, would they acquire a whole new set of BTs in much the same way that ‘ordinary’ people do when they are born?

Bear in mind that you hold on to them equally as much as they hold on to you. It takes two to hug. On the other hand hugging is conducive to a lot of affinity flows and that can be great.

How many BTs does each person have?

How long is a piece of string?

Do BTs only attach themselves to people at birth, or at any other time as well?

Anything goes, but people usually cling to each other in times of crisis.

As the Earth’s population keeps rising, does this mean that each person gets a smaller number of BTs each?

This has NOTHING to do with the population of earth.

If Thetans could be trapped by various ‘electronic’ devices, would it be possible to create a machine that could zap them away from people, thus bypassing the OT levels?

Yuk. What a depraved thing to do to someone. Refer to an earlier thread on this - one is NOT (should not be) trying to "get rid" of other beings. One is auditing them to get them to feel better about life and about themselves. Same as with any other auditing. Once they are up and about and happy they may want to go off and live a life of their own or they may choose to stay with you. Leave the choice to them.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
The notion of body thetans is a speculation. It is one of those things which can neither be proven or disproven. In any case, there is no evidence that such things exist. I think that those things observed that lead someone to conclude that he/she is inhabited by other beings can be remedied with Idenics processing.
Smitty
 

Feral

Rogue male
Ax, Having done 1000s of hours of solo and comparing my experience against the laboratory of life I am no closer to resolving these issues

-What does handling an attachment to ones body have to do with going OT?

-I am sure the process of death and rebirth necessitates more solo, but how much more?

-Is part, all, or none of this approach necessary? or harmful?

-Are we, when we are auditing NOTS actually liberating theta or just shifting it around? and is this 'liberation' actually needed and wanted by any being ?(other than Hubbard)

-Show me a mother F*&%@ing OT, please?
 

Div6

Crusader
Let us leave Xenu alone for a moment and discuss demons and demonic possession. There is a long history of dealing with demons in both the gnostic traditions and early Christianity, as well as other religious philosophies. "Unclean spirits", "djinn", etc.

They can attach to the energy fields surrounding the body, or to the being himself. Beings above 2.0 on the tone scale repel, and can control these types of entities all day long. Besides the "grouper" and "cluster-making" incidents on the whole track, they tend to "attach" during child-hood illnesses, periods when the immune system is low, etc. Severe losses and shocks this lifetime can jumble them all up, and create a "we are all one" type of incident. For example, in the book "No one here gets out alive" (Bio of Jim Morrison) it is related that Morrison was aware of the spirits of Indians entering his body on a cross country drive with his family. I had a similar experience driving through the Dakotas as a teenager. Wound up getting sick as a dog and only able to drink cola for a week. That "cluster" audited out on III....

The most detailed info on this from a "scn" perspective can be found here:
http://www.freezoneamerica.org/excal/excal05.html

Hubbard was NOT literate on this subject. It was Mayo who C\S'ed him OUT of his "OT III" self-induced psychosis using the early NOTs materials.

My experience with the OT materials is as follows: OT II, not quickied, does break apart some of the masses of "enities"....and OT III does enable one to convert chunks of entheta to theta. But as far as "completing" this case area is concerned, the CoS has a vested interest to milk it for all it is worth. So if you are inclined to tackle this area, you better be a good auditor, and you better be literate in what all is entailed. The CoS isn't.

In fact, current CoS leadership appears to be "entity" driven, dramatizing a "controlling others" type incident. Maybe they deliver total wheedom. They certainly are not delivering total freedom.
 
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Andrew

Patron with Honors
The notion of body thetans is a speculation. It is one of those things which can neither be proven or disproven. In any case, there is no evidence that such things exist. I think that those things observed that lead someone to conclude that he/she is inhabited by other beings can be remedied with Idenics processing.
Smitty

Deleted
 

Pitbull

Patron with Honors
The whole "BT" Theory seems pretty weak from the get-go.

It assumes "thetans" gathered up from all over the friggin universe, which
implies all sorts of things in itself.

I'm under a different impression, that once "out of the body" that it could be quite likely that beings would choose to live in clusters with other beings.
After all if you don't have a body, time and space isn't the same issue
as it is in the "here and now".

Seems to me Hubbard went well out of his way to make sure that people don't really find out about themselves. Or go free. Or have a free thought or become independent in any way. Its all designed to invoke full obedience
and adulation. To take the person's attention off the real price of ultimate freedom and onto Hubbard and Scientology.

What would keep people busier than spending years and years chasing after imaginary BTs? And then never releasing the alleged "real" OT levels above 8?

Ron spend much of his last years writing 10 friggin Sci-Fi books. If the Bridge was really producing OTs you would think he would have had something a bit more responsible and constructive to do with his time. Or there would be a more thorough "History of the Universe" or more definable rundowns to restore a Thetan to actual control out of body.

The BT thing is more than likely a major red herring.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'll give Hubbard's answers to these questions, as best I remember them.

1. In the OT3 pack, I believe he says "hundreds" of BTs per person. Obviously modified by NOTs and Solo NOTs practices, which would vastly inflate the number.

2. They attach to the thetan and/or the body. Many have been attached since Incident 2 or even Incident 1. Other incidents too. "Cluster-making" incidents can occur anywhere on the track. Not to forget earlier universes, although he's a bit shy on details here.

3. He doesn't comment on it. Speculate yourself.

4. Ditto.

I repeat, these are not MY answers to those questions!

Paul

Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

I would conclude from what you said that Body Thetan is a rather a misnomer. The fact that they can attach themselves to individual Thetans, would make more sense as to why they are so troublesome.

This seems to imply that BTs can attach themselves at any time. Thus to be fully free of BTs would require one to be permanently auditing Solo NOTS.

I originally asked for the ‘official’ view on this subject, because I know that this sort of discussion can get very subjective and chaotic. I want to be able to make a logical analysis of the veracity of the OT levels. But, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Axiom142
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Are the OT levels permanent?

In a word, no. But once one has cottoned onto the benefits of having a cleanly washed face many people prefer to contine that mode rather than revert to their previous savage ways. (That's a poor analogy - don't take it too literally)


When a person is cleared of all their BTs on OTVII, what is to stop many more BTs coming swarming in and attaching themselves to that person?

Nothing.

Or, when a person dies and then subsequently picks up a new body, would they acquire a whole new set of BTs in much the same way that ‘ordinary’ people do when they are born?

Bear in mind that you hold on to them equally as much as they hold on to you. It takes two to hug. On the other hand hugging is conducive to a lot of affinity flows and that can be great.

How many BTs does each person have?

How long is a piece of string?

Do BTs only attach themselves to people at birth, or at any other time as well?

Anything goes, but people usually cling to each other in times of crisis.

As the Earth’s population keeps rising, does this mean that each person gets a smaller number of BTs each?

This has NOTHING to do with the population of earth.

If Thetans could be trapped by various ‘electronic’ devices, would it be possible to create a machine that could zap them away from people, thus bypassing the OT levels?

Yuk. What a depraved thing to do to someone. Refer to an earlier thread on this - one is NOT (should not be) trying to "get rid" of other beings. One is auditing them to get them to feel better about life and about themselves. Same as with any other auditing. Once they are up and about and happy they may want to go off and live a life of their own or they may choose to stay with you. Leave the choice to them.

Leon,

Thank you for your reply. The fact that we might hold onto BTs as much as they hold onto us, is something that I had not considered. It makes sense and would explain why one might need to be audited on others levels to address the reasons why we do this, prior to doing these OT levels.

I suppose that I had focussed on the negative aspects of being ‘infested’ by BTs without looking at any possible positive ones. Thank you for educating me in this regard.

Axiom142
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
I recently read three books (doubled my lifetime stat! :happydance:) all of which dealt with the phenomena of normal beings dying and attaching themselves to others in bodies. Those they attached themselves to sometimes had a special significance (loved/hated one) or were ostensibly random choices. I believe this may be a valid phenomenon.

BTW, there's a story told in the FZ about a pc who went Clear by being audited as one of Hubbard's BTs prior to this lifetime. :ohmy: I have some salt if you need a pinch. :eyeroll:

I think BTs is a total misnomer. There could be many phenomena that occur under this umbrella term.

Why should valences not have their own locations in space?

What about little bits of theta you've sent off to do something you're too bored to do yourself? What happens to them when you let them be and don't reintegrate?

Scn's model of life is woefully inadequate.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Do you believe in BT's Axiom?

Good Question Pixie!

To be honest, I have to say that I am rather undecided. I like to think that I maintain an open mind, but it seems to me that this is rather a difficult thing to prove scientifically.

Not having done said OT levels, I don’t have any subjective reality on this. The fact that there appears to be significant numbers of people who have done these OT levels and now think that they are rubbish, makes me doubt the existence of BTs. But equally, there are many people who have done these levels and remain committed to Scientology. Of course, you could argue that these people may be too afraid to look at the consequences of admitting that what they have devoted large parts of their lives (and wealth) to is totally imaginary.

My major problem with the existence of BTs is the source of this ‘discovery’. From various accounts, Hubbard seemed rather mentally unstable at the time that he came up with this theory. Also, the story of Xenu just sounds too ridiculous to be even remotely factual. If it were true, you’d expect there to be some scientific evidence. For example, Hubbard mentions Gran Canaria as being an important base for implanting beings 75 million years ago. But, this island, along with the rest of the Canary Islands, simply didn’t exist more than a few million years ago! If you study why and how volcanic islands get created, and the history of the Canary Islands, it becomes very obvious that they could not have existed all those many millions of years ago. Of course this relies on modern discoveries about tectonic plate movement and volcanology, which were not well known at the time that Hubbard came up with OTIII.

It appears that Scientologists are just expected to accept this story. Well OK, but don’t then claim that Scientology is a religion based on scientific thinking and discoveries.

Axiom142
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I want to be able to make a logical analysis of the veracity of the OT levels. But, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.

It is tricky to make a logical analysis, because you would be investigating "things" which can only be perceived by some people, and not easily (if at all) by scientific instruments independently of being wired up to people. So you run into the replication problem--any positive experiments done are not easily replicated.

Tens of thousands of Scientologists have audited many millions of hours on OT3 and above addressing "things" they think are real beings. Many people have had significant positive changes occur in their lives from doing this--often in a sort of lumpy fashion, in that there may be a gradual improvement over a hundred or thousand hours, or there may be a WOWEE! improvement from two minutes' work in one session that proves to be a significant life-changing event.

Spiritual entities of various kinds that interact with humans are commonly mentioned in disciplines other than Scientology. But Scn has a unique take on this--that "Body Thetans" in huge numbers infest a single person until freed. People do not share the same body thetan. Each BT is bound to one single person, body and/or thetan, until released to go on his merry way. In their thousands, tens of thousands, millions.

Other disciplines (I don't really have a good word here--it would include religions) talk of spiritual beings influencing a person--angels, demons, sprites, ghosts, elementals etc--but these are relatively free to come and go and interact with other humans and more likely their own kind too, as well as other life forms like plants and animals. Some people have an "attachment" that does act as if it is stuck to that one person only. Maybe more than one, but we are talking of a very small number here, not Hubbard's hundreds or thousands.

So what are people addressing when they do OT3? I believe there is some discrete bit of energy-consciousness that "answers up" and responds as a BT when looked for in an OT3 session. The next "BT" is a separate bit of energy-consciousness. Although I also believe there is a lot of dub-in and imagination and "now I'm supposed to" too. My current guess is that most of these are the near end of chakra cords, cords that connect each individual and beings/people he or she has interacted with in the past, including going back a long, long way. The far end of each cord has (or sometimes had) another being on it.

In addition to a possible "attachment", it could just be that each person here has a few (three or so, not hundreds) spiritual guides (guardian angels etc.) who accompany the person in their daily life, interact with the person to some extent, and have done so for maybe a few lifetimes as well as between lives. Many people do "channelling" of such guides, or also "guest presenters" who move around more, which may be genuine or may be a con. It seems plausible that such an activity does exist and can be valid. Most people are not aware of these guides as such, although they may be very familiar with some conversations they have had with them!

Such spiritual entities would qualify for the term "spiritual teammate" in the sense that Alan uses it--as far as I understand--but I believe the number to be very small and not in any way comparable to the number of "BTs" one has.

Over the weekend I discovered a way to maybe sense some of these spiritual beings, and am making up a Paul's Robot module to do just that--the working name is "Spot an Angel". It should be online in a week. I found the procedure a lot of fun to do and quite life-changing. :)

Another module will address the chakra cords, and after I've done several sessions with that I may have some better comments on their possible relationship to BTs.

So those are some of my current thoughts.

Paul
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
It is tricky to make a logical analysis, because you would be investigating "things" which can only be perceived by some people, and not easily (if at all) by scientific instruments independently of being wired up to people. So you run into the replication problem--any positive experiments done are not easily replicated.

Tens of thousands of Scientologists have audited many millions of hours on OT3 and above addressing "things" they think are real beings. Many people have had significant positive changes occur in their lives from doing this--often in a sort of lumpy fashion, in that there may be a gradual improvement over a hundred or thousand hours, or there may be a WOWEE! improvement from two minutes' work in one session that proves to be a significant life-changing event.

Spiritual entities of various kinds that interact with humans are commonly mentioned in disciplines other than Scientology. But Scn has a unique take on this--that "Body Thetans" in huge numbers infest a single person until freed. People do not share the same body thetan. Each BT is bound to one single person, body and/or thetan, until released to go on his merry way. In their thousands, tens of thousands, millions.

Other disciplines (I don't really have a good word here--it would include religions) talk of spiritual beings influencing a person--angels, demons, sprites, ghosts, elementals etc--but these are relatively free to come and go and interact with other humans and more likely their own kind too, as well as other life forms like plants and animals. Some people have an "attachment" that does act as if it is stuck to that one person only. Maybe more than one, but we are talking of a very small number here, not Hubbard's hundreds or thousands.

So what are people addressing when they do OT3? I believe there is some discrete bit of energy-consciousness that "answers up" and responds as a BT when looked for in an OT3 session. The next "BT" is a separate bit of energy-consciousness. Although I also believe there is a lot of dub-in and imagination and "now I'm supposed to" too. My current guess is that most of these are the near end of chakra cords, cords that connect each individual and beings/people he or she has interacted with in the past, including going back a long, long way. The far end of each cord has (or sometimes had) another being on it.

In addition to a possible "attachment", it could just be that each person here has a few (three or so, not hundreds) spiritual guides (guardian angels etc.) who accompany the person in their daily life, interact with the person to some extent, and have done so for maybe a few lifetimes as well as between lives. Many people do "channelling" of such guides, or also "guest presenters" who move around more, which may be genuine or may be a con. It seems plausible that such an activity does exist and can be valid. Most people are not aware of these guides as such, although they may be very familiar with some conversations they have had with them!

Such spiritual entities would qualify for the term "spiritual teammate" in the sense that Alan uses it--as far as I understand--but I believe the number to be very small and not in any way comparable to the number of "BTs" one has.

Over the weekend I discovered a way to maybe sense some of these spiritual beings, and am making up a Paul's Robot module to do just that--the working name is "Spot an Angel". It should be online in a week. I found the procedure a lot of fun to do and quite life-changing. :)

Another module will address the chakra cords, and after I've done several sessions with that I may have some better comments on their possible relationship to BTs.

So those are some of my current thoughts.

Paul

Paul,

Thank you for your thoughts. Very interesting! I shall take some time out to digest what you have said.

Axiom142
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
(snip)

Spiritual entities of various kinds that interact with humans are commonly mentioned in disciplines other than Scientology. But Scn has a unique take on this--that "Body Thetans" in huge numbers infest a single person until freed. People do not share the same body thetan. Each BT is bound to one single person, body and/or thetan, until released to go on his merry way.

(snip)
Paul

could you tell where did you pick that datum from? I don't recall anything that says so, quite the contrary actually. (whatever that "thing" called a BT is...)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
could you tell where did you pick that datum from?

OT3 pack. He uses the word "stuck" more than once. There's a whole HCOB on how a thetan gets stuck to another. He does not talk about people swapping BTs in normal social intercourse, or picking them up while out walking and have them hitch a ride for a few minutes or hours or days and then they go off joyriding somewhere else.

Does he paint a different picture in the NOTs pack?

Paul
 
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