Are the OT Levels Permanent?


No....the NOT's materials contain only a few accounts of "BT Activity". Hubbard was spiritually illiterate in this area (thus the Xenu thing.)
In NOTs you are taught to ignore the pictures as "mis-directors" and to locate the acutal source and then run NOT's procedure in that location.

Again, it is electrical interaction. BT's operate on an energy level.

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Does anyone know where the post is on how Hubbard came up with OT3? I think it was Dart's and I've done a search but can't find it at the moment. I think it's quite relevant to the OP's question.


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OT3 pack. He uses the word "stuck" more than once. There's a whole HCOB on how a thetan gets stuck to another. He does not talk about people swapping BTs in normal social intercourse, or picking them up while out walking and have them hitch a ride for a few minutes or hours or days and then they go off joyriding somewhere else.

Does he paint a different picture in the NOTs pack?


Yeah, thetans being stuck after colliding one with the other. Depends then upon the collisions that occurred during that normal social intercourse, walks etc. - sharing would be via "agreements" (like in "bank agreements") - you're correct, sharing doesn't a BT make

So - although there might be and are exceptions to every rule - you'd say while viewpoint A collides into viewpoint B, the A would be stuck to B without B being stuck to A?

Hubbard writes in DN 55 something like "12 people witnessing the same accident would have 12 different versions of what happenned" - say 12 people participating in the same violent crash, each one would have own personal entities created not shared by the others? not one or some BTs shared by all? after all in regression sessions one has to go through the same incident several times, so every stuck viewpoint could "see" the truth of the matter, and finally the "I" (the auditee) can spit his own consideration out (postulate) and release the attention units from the mass. Wouldn't that release also stuck viewpoints at the other end (even though partially)? (other viewpoints one collided with in that incident)


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Thanks for finding that for us Paradox.

I wish I'd known that someone else was looking, I spent 20 mins before I found it. :duh:

I had read this, and this is one of the many reasons that I love this forum. We have several people here who have worked with Hubbard and are prepared to tell us what actually took place, not the sanitized PR version.

Although I was aware of this, I wanted to know what Hubbard’s version was. It would seem only fair to analyse what he said and then compare this to what other people actually observed for themselves.



ab intra silentio vera
OT III sounds like the product of Mind Kontrol

Scattered Parts

When building a system, the Programmers take advantage of their knowledge of how multiplicity works. Two alters can have several possible relationships which are:

a. two-way amnesia, where neither alter knows about the other’s existence. This is what the Programmers want for most alters. They don’t want multiples to even know they are multiples.

b. one-way amnesia, where A alter knows B alter, but B doesn’t know A. This can be accomplished by setting in one-way mirrors.

c. co-presence, two alters can come on top of each other at the front of the mind and hold the body together. This produces some strange behavior for the multiple as different alters synthesize their thoughts. When a tough alter comes up behind a Christian alter, the Christian alter may find himself letting loose of a cuss word without knowing where exactly it came from. When a child alter comes up behind an adult, the adult may find itself talking like a child.

d. co-conscious, this is when two alters are aware of what each other is thinking. As the Programmers structure a System of alters, they build in No-talk walls every so often where all communication and visibility between alters is walled off. These No-talk walls are specifically built structures and not the result of normal amnesia. A 13 x 13 grid may have, for instance, 2 No-talk walls. Other methods will be used to divide all the levels from each other. One method of dividing the levels is the level of trance for level 3 will be different than the level of trance for level 10. This will not hold true across the board, because some deeper alters are not in deep trance.

One Monarch slave, programmed beginning in the 1950’s, described her System:

Scattered Parts

Broken hearts, divided parts, they all live inside of me.

How many times can they divide my mind?

Broken hearts with divided parts scattered throughout my mind.

How many times can they wipe me out before I come back no more? Can they instill a will in me that is not mine?

They broke my heart too many times and divided all the parts, then scattered them through time. Some are good and some are evil. How many times can they split my mind?

The lights, needles and pain went on much longer than we can explain. Did these things happen, or is it what they wanted me to believe? Does God exist or is it what I want to believe?

Does the store house exist where the computer is? Are there computers in me that help split me?

Scattered parts, broken hearts, where do I exist? Is there a castle built inside? If so, what person am I?

Lights, needles, and pain goes on today, or is it lies that are made up in a mind split far too many times.

Broken hearts, divided minds, scattered throughout time. I don’t want to mislead you. Did the experiments work? And they split me too many times?

Lights, needles, and pain. They can wipe me out if I try to explain.

Butterflies, butterflies, lots and lots of them. I lay down at nights with them. I wrap up in a blanket made of them. I hear their hum as they lead me to the lights, needles and pain. The needles and pain make it so I can not think. I get so sleepy, but I can not sleep. The pain races through my mind and splits it one more time.

I have forgotten more than most will ever know. The computer will show how many times they can split the mind, break the heart; divided minds scattered throughout time.

How many times before I can come back no more?"
--received from therapist Denny Hilgers.
One of lafayette's foundational principles was that the human mind is capable of solving the problems of the human mind. To me that sounds similar to saying the eye is capable of seeing the eye. Or the program of a computer is capable of solving its own program. Or where the creator/dreamer of a motive body that is capable of computing comes to believe itself to BE its own creation, the computer hardware and it's running software programs, with each program assigned an identity of its own as separate entities that the delusional creator plays virtual games with. For it to work, the creator has to willingly forget, for a "time," who "it" really is and must take all of it seriously. And it must forget all about the off-and-on switch.

Aspects of tinkering about with the mind of self and others, of the internal compulsion to control, have existed from day one, when the awareness of personal consciousness first appeared on this planet under perhaps less-than-gentle catastrophic conditions; the advent of homo sapiens, apparently only around a scant 10,000 years ago if the mythological and archeological records are any indication. But that's another subject, even if related to what I think was lafayette's gross misinterpretation, willingly or not, of "the history of man."

I think we humans have a completely introverted, entirely too serious, relationship with the mindfield (á la minefield). I also think it's been a relatively very short relationship with respect to the latest, local evolvement of "personal" consciousness, well within the last 10,000 years or so.

I understand this is really not the topic of the thread, but I believe there is some relevance in terms of "OTIII" and even to earlier delusions of ancient demonic possession and the like. The Eleusian Mysteries come to mind, for example. The Osiris mythology. Like the christian mythologies of casting out of demons. The jewish kabbala, etc. Capable of bestowing both vast euphorias along with great devastation to the dreamers lost amidst the field of mind.
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Squirrel Extraordinaire
So - although there might be and are exceptions to every rule - you'd say while viewpoint A collides into viewpoint B, the A would be stuck to B without B being stuck to A?

Thankfully, I now no longer have to make sense of everything Hubbard wrote.

When I was an OT3 sup I assumed that if thetan A was stuck to thetan B, then the relationship was mutual, i.e. thetan B would also be stuck to thetan A. He did use the word "stuck". Doesn't being stuck imply a mutual stuckness? You can't stick a handle to a cup without the cup being stuck to the handle too. I agree there can be one-way obsessive attachments in life, with one person being besotted with ("stuck on"!) another who barely registers the existence of the first, but that is not really the same thing.

But now, what do I think about it? A waste of typing strokes. :)



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I have not done the OT levels. However, the BT "theory" seems pretty goofy to me.

First of all, if, according to LRH, a thetan has NO location how could it be pulled into traps, collide with others, etc. It makes NO sense.


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this becomes a whole lot easier once you understand that there's no such things as body thetans. So to answer the original question; uh... no.


I have not done the OT levels. However, the BT "theory" seems pretty goofy to me.

First of all, if, according to LRH, a thetan has NO location how could it be pulled into traps, collide with others, etc. It makes NO sense.

:clap: Thank you!! :clap:


I have not done the OT levels. However, the BT "theory" seems pretty goofy to me.

First of all, if, according to LRH, a thetan has NO location how could it be pulled into traps, collide with others, etc. It makes NO sense.

Are you in this universe? Are you a thetan?


Squirrel Extraordinaire
First of all, if, according to LRH, a thetan has NO location how could it be pulled into traps, collide with others, etc. It makes NO sense.

If this were 15 years ago and you were a student in my courseroom with that question, I would do the following. This seemed to satisfy pretty much everyone with that question. ("Everyone" here means normal students in a Scn courseroon, staff and public. "Satisfies" means what it says--I could tell if a student was happy with a reference and considered his question answered, or not).

1. First, clear the difference between "static" and "thetan". (Tech Dictionary plus that little bit in the old Phoenix Lectures book about thetans having weight, as shown by people getting half an ounce or so lighter at the point of death. The reference and a link to the actual original doctor's research article was posted here a week or two ago.)

2. Read the beginning of the HCOB "The Magic of the Communication Cycle" (or something like that--it's near the beginning of the Basic Auditing Series). I would have the student bring me the issue and I would point out the relevant sentence or two. I can't do that here, so here's some verbal tech. :). It says the thetan, because of his association with the MEST universe, considers himself to some extent MEST (including mass) and so subject to its laws.

The student would get the idea that a thetan had mass, and could be caught in a trap.


uncle sam

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This thread is "Are OT levels Permanent?"

If the Tide stick doesn't work, soak in bleach and cold water for a couple of hours.


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Would you mind sharing a link to where you got that quote that started out with "Scattered Parts" -- I'm interested to pursue that material further.




Patron with Honors
Over the weekend I discovered a way to maybe sense some of these spiritual beings, and am making up a Paul's Robot module to do just that--the working name is "Spot an Angel". It should be online in a week. I found the procedure a lot of fun to do and quite life-changing. :)

That sounds great, Paul! Let me know when it's ready for testing. :wink2: