Are the OT Levels Permanent?

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Interest is certainly genuine. I PM'd you about your robot auditor a few times, but you must not recall.
thanks again!

I did certainly recall. But you put a little winkie after your post, so I allowed some wriggle room in my response. :)

Paul
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
Thankfully, I now no longer have to make sense of everything Hubbard wrote.

When I was an OT3 sup I assumed that if thetan A was stuck to thetan B, then the relationship was mutual, i.e. thetan B would also be stuck to thetan A. He did use the word "stuck". Doesn't being stuck imply a mutual stuckness? You can't stick a handle to a cup without the cup being stuck to the handle too. I agree there can be one-way obsessive attachments in life, with one person being besotted with ("stuck on"!) another who barely registers the existence of the first, but that is not really the same thing.

But now, what do I think about it? A waste of typing strokes. :)

Paul

Thank you Paul. Your statement about "mutual stuckness" contradicts however "People do not share the same body thetan. Each BT is bound to one single person"

Not that it's so important as to waste more typing strokes ;-)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Thank you Paul. Your statement about "mutual stuckness" contradicts however "People do not share the same body thetan. Each BT is bound to one single person"

Not that it's so important as to waste more typing strokes ;-)

How? There are these "little" BTs, poor things, not up to running a body. Then there are the "big thetans", who can muster enough oomph to push one around. The big thetans have little BTs stuck to them, although the little BTs are also stuck to each other. The big thetans can't shake off the little BTs without Hubbard's wonderful spells, and the little BTs can't shake off the little BTs or the big thetan.

The idea I meant to put across was that a BT wouldn't go cling to one person for a day or year, then go off and find another one for a bit, then another, and so on.

That was my understanding of the scriptures, anyway.

There is no intention of mine to belittle genuine beings here. I think the idea of BTs is false, and I am belittling Hubbard.

Paul
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
How? There are these "little" BTs, poor things, not up to running a body. Then there are the "big thetans", who can muster enough oomph to push one around. The big thetans have little BTs stuck to them, although the little BTs are also stuck to each other. The big thetans can't shake off the little BTs without Hubbard's wonderful spells, and the little BTs can't shake off the little BTs or the big thetan.

The idea I meant to put across was that a BT wouldn't go cling to one person for a day or year, then go off and find another one for a bit, then another, and so on.

That was my understanding of the scriptures, anyway.

There is no intention of mine to belittle genuine beings here. I think the idea of BTs is false, and I am belittling Hubbard.

Paul

Every wog meatball who wanders into 'the shop' is a cluster of clusters of innumerable BTs; none of which are of any more importance than the others, except for *one*; the one that brought the meat body into the shop. The one that can sign the checks, pull out the credit card and let the 'Church' genocidally eliminate all the other ones that get in the way.

There's no difference between a 'BT' and 'The Thetan', except that 'The Thetan' signs up for Scientology.

Zinj
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
There may be a Hubbard reference here that is relevant which I have mentioned before.

It's in his handwriting and was shown to me by an OTVIII in good standing as part of an FSM cycle.

I can't give a verbatim quote but I am confident I understood it to say that the majority of beings in bodies on this planet are probably "minions".
No definition of minion was provided. I took it to mean (rightly or wrongly) that they weren't Grade 1 thetans but creations of thetans. :)

How? There are these "little" BTs, poor things, not up to running a body. Then there are the "big thetans", who can muster enough oomph to push one around. The big thetans have little BTs stuck to them, although the little BTs are also stuck to each other. The big thetans can't shake off the little BTs without Hubbard's wonderful spells, and the little BTs can't shake off the little BTs or the big thetan.

The idea I meant to put across was that a BT wouldn't go cling to one person for a day or year, then go off and find another one for a bit, then another, and so on.

That was my understanding of the scriptures, anyway.

There is no intention of mine to belittle genuine beings here. I think the idea of BTs is false, and I am belittling Hubbard.

Paul
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
Paradox,

Would you mind sharing a link to where you got that quote that started out with "Scattered Parts" -- I'm interested to pursue that material further.

Thanks!

o

Oh, jeeze, olska, I don't have a clue offhand. I have so much material I've collected over the years on the subject. I just did a google search on "scattered parts danny hilgers" and came up with one site here that appears to have the quoted material: http://www.gameroom.com/hebrewman/mind_control_slaves_A1_1.html. I don't think this is the original source but it'll do. Another hit came up on some forum that I'd never seen but one of the posts from someone called "scyhop;per" titled "Chapter 7 The Science of Structuring A. Structuring of MPD Worlds" looked interesting and quite detailed. It's about 1/3 down the page or so here: http://www.entheogen.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-15126.html. Can't vouch for any of the material or whoever that source is, of course. With a little research we could probably figure out what book or material is being referenced re "Chapter 7."

You might also want to do a search on "Martin Cannon The Controllers" for a paper that I thought was well researched. It covers this area as well.

Due to the nature of the subject you'll need to do a lot of sorting "wheat from the chaff" in terms of weirdness, agendas, controversy, and so forth. Hmm. Not unlike $cn. :lol:
 
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gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's pretty plain from starting facts: we ostensibly fell from grace, and went through a declension from "serenity of beingness" and "native state" and arrived at homo sapiens. Thus, if we can achieve those states again, there's no reason to think they'd be any more permanent this time around.

More importantly, how many OTs does it take to bend a pin with telekinesis?

All of them, and it still doesn't bend.
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
And all those embarrassing spoon-bending parties where people with no Scn auditing can bend spoons etc. after an hour's instruction at an over 80% success rate.

Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

Paul

That's the first time I've seen someone reporting such large-scale "spoon-bending". Odd that I haven't heard of it before. I do believe that pk does, in fact, occur, and that it's effects can be quite far-reaching, but that's just a BELIEF of mine, and certainly not something I am positing as a fact.

I'd be interested to see documentation of such things by third parties in clinical trials, or to witness it myself.

I wonder why OTs can't do this?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
That's the first time I've seen someone reporting such large-scale "spoon-bending". Odd that I haven't heard of it before. I do believe that pk does, in fact, occur, and that it's effects can be quite far-reaching, but that's just a BELIEF of mine, and certainly not something I am positing as a fact.

I'd be interested to see documentation of such things by third parties in clinical trials, or to witness it myself.

I wonder why OTs can't do this?

The wikipedia article has a link to a write-up by Michael Crichton who attended one and bent stuff too.

I figure that people who've completed Scn OT Levels can't do it because they don't attend PK parties and follow the instructions. That's not meant to be a funny answer, but take it at face value. Similar instructions--group of maybe 15 adults who don't know each other intimately; group excitement and fun; go through the simple motions as given--don't exist in any Scn group process.

Paul
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
There may be a Hubbard reference here that is relevant which I have mentioned before.

It's in his handwriting and was shown to me by an OTVIII in good standing as part of an FSM cycle.

I can't give a verbatim quote but I am confident I understood it to say that the majority of beings in bodies on this planet are probably "minions".
No definition of minion was provided. I took it to mean (rightly or wrongly) that they weren't Grade 1 thetans but creations of thetans. :)

When you think about this, doesn't it give you an overall sense of how Hubbard regarded humankind? How he created 'them and us' and a false sense of superiority that leads into being the 'only ones' who can make changes? It makes me shudder actually.
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
Thank you, Paradox.

Looks like this is a link to the book from which it came. These names are familiar; I think it's controversial as to whether they are authentic/genuine or simply disinfo artists. I think there's another similar couple i.e. purported victim and recovery therapist "touring the circuit." But I forget who's who. It's such a dirty scene with, I'm sure, such deliberate obfuscation that I doubt it would ever be able to be sorted out completely in the open one way or the other. I don't know if it's become this sophisticated or not, but seeing that they've had decades of "research and development' and an unlimited budget to work with, who knows.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2537207/Illuminati-Total-Mind-Control
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Looks like this is a link to the book from which it came...http://www.scribd.com/doc/2537207/Illuminati-Total-Mind-Control

I didn't recognize the quote you posted, that I first inquired about, as being part of the subject matter taken up in this book. Pretty wild stuff -- I've had only a very brief brush with any of this material in the past, and wrote it off as too weird.

HOWEVER, 100 or so pages into this book has me wondering... Happens that I'm in close contact with someone who is struggling through some very difficult issues right now, who has told me some tales about his very strange childhood history which is just TOO CLOSE to the "claims" made by the authors of this book! So now I'm fascinated, and will read more, perhaps find some clues to help my friend untangle himself from his peculiar mindfuck (unrelated to scientology).

This is not the venue for discussion about that, just wanted to say once again, thank you!
 

Björkist

Silver Meritorious Patron
*Nobody* 'believes' in BTs!!! Scientologists 'know how to know'; they don't *believe*!!!!

Zinj


Zinjifar, are you speaking for all Scientologists (CofS, Freezone, Independent and even those thetans who aren't Scientologists yet)?


As for BTs (and any other spiritual phenomena), we aren't necessarily dealing with MEST universe stuff here. On our end we are, because that's the place we happen to be at the moment.

Various beings reside on/in different wavelengths (realities?) which we are part of and which surround us in all directions. We are experiencing just one tiny facet of an unimaginably huge, or infinitely small, wavelength.
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
I didn't recognize the quote you posted, that I first inquired about, as being part of the subject matter taken up in this book. Pretty wild stuff -- I've had only a very brief brush with any of this material in the past, and wrote it off as too weird.

HOWEVER, 100 or so pages into this book has me wondering... Happens that I'm in close contact with someone who is struggling through some very difficult issues right now, who has told me some tales about his very strange childhood history which is just TOO CLOSE to the "claims" made by the authors of this book! So now I'm fascinated, and will read more, perhaps find some clues to help my friend untangle himself from his peculiar mindfuck (unrelated to scientology).

This is not the venue for discussion about that, just wanted to say once again, thank you!

Most welcome, olska. The quote about "Scattered Parts Broken Hearts" is on pg 264. You can just type in "scattered" in the search box and it should take you right to it. Wishing your friend the very best if it is found to be at all applicable.
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
When you think about this, doesn't it give you an overall sense of how Hubbard regarded humankind? How he created 'them and us' and a false sense of superiority that leads into being the 'only ones' who can make changes? It makes me shudder actually.

Good point your FTSness. :yes:

The first things that crossed my mind were:

1. It was said to make those reading it feel elitist and special - a feeling they should only get from Scn. Another effort to make them stick to Scn.
This has probably been said before, but you could argue that as Scns we were Hubbard's BTs. :ohmy:

2. It was an excuse/rationalisation for the tech not working or making OTs out of some.

3. He wasn't actually sure what the majority of beings on this planet actually are! Hardly inspiring from the big OT with all the answers!
 

Feral

Rogue male
Good point your FTSness. :yes:

The first things that crossed my mind were:

1. It was said to make those reading it feel elitist and special - a feeling they should only get from Scn. Another effort to make them stick to Scn.
This has probably been said before, but you could argue that as Scns we were Hubbard's BTs. :ohmy:

2. It was an excuse/rationalisation for the tech not working or making OTs out of some.

3. He wasn't actually sure what the majority of beings on this planet actually are! Hardly inspiring from the big OT with all the answers!

1. Yep that was one of his tricks. Scilons being Hubbards space cooties? Is that why so many blow?

2.Out of some? Show me a mother [email protected]*&ing OT!

3.He offered up an explanation for most of llife on a late BC tape as a pool of theta, animated by another larger being. He never repeated that in any OT level ref. Changed his mind?:omg:
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
1. Yep that was one of his tricks. Scilons being Hubbards space cooties? Is that why so many blow?

2.Out of some? Show me a mother [email protected]*&ing OT!

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear on this. If you were reading that bulletin and had already bought into the idea that you were OT (despite all evidence to the contrary) or would go OT on your next step :eyeroll: the datum might help rationalise why you saw no OTness in others on The Bridge. :duh:

Stoopid, I know, but I'm sure that type of consideration is going on in the Church all the time.

3.He offered up an explanation for most of llife on a late BC tape as a pool of theta, animated by another larger being. He never repeated that in any OT level ref. Changed his mind?:omg:

L. Kin talks a little about this in one of his books (Pied Pier?) in terms of the GE. IIRC, he says there is a GE pool of theta for each species.

I have some time for the theory you mention here. However, over time, perhaps the larger being withdraws and the animated elements go forward with some brand of self-determinism or automaticity.

I'm finding it hard to articulate these ideas clearly. Apologies.
 
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