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Argument for doing a submission & relevant info (thread title change, June 9th)

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I got as far as "directly affects". No, it "indirectly affects" the UK due to a mutual agreement (which I don't know exists any more after the 2006 changes in UK laws). It can be nullified if the UK nullifies its agreement. The UK government can say "No - no more" any time it likes to. If Australia were to grant the cult the right to kill one hundred critics a year so that it could catch up with other mainstream religions and to claim back expenses then I am happy to see that happen in Australia and for Australians to subsidise that in their taxes. But if this were to mean that Scientology in the UK could go ahead and do the same then something would change quickly. Cause and effect is not "direct".

You are just beong provocative and I am not going to waste time arguing with you.

I'll just say this and then I am out of any pedantic arguments you may wish to make.

I have worked in the UK over the cult's National Minimum Wage abuse, child education abuse and Information abuse. In every instance the UK authorities stopped being willing to protect UK citizens once they reached the Australian COSRECI barrier.

The cult is not a charity in the UK, but operates as if it is one due to the COSRECI cloaking. I have had UK government officials confirm to me that in the UK an Australian charity is treated by the UK officials as if it were a UK charity.

Larry Brennan covered the motives for this in his affidavit on Religious Cloaking.

The Australian Charitable status does directly affect every UK taxpayer and affects UK employees and children as well as foreign employees and children. UK government officials have confirmed this directly to me in writing.

End of discussion from me.
 

Carmel

Crusader
I just PMed Carmel with a request for a link to the Senate Inquiry parameters and how to submit a report to them.

I've been off ESMB for quite a while and couldn't easily find links for the above and don't have time to trawl through all the threads to try and find the info.

Apologies if this is already glaringly viewable, maybe it's just me who missed it. But can I suggest an easy to see notice for those like me who might want to submit, but don't have time to go through hundreds of posts?
I've sent you the info - For others who may have missed it, at least read the first post of this thread.....It contains most of the info you'd need to do a submission: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18185

Welcome back, LH, and thanks for your earlier post. :)
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
You are just beong provocative and I am not going to waste time arguing with you.

I'll just say this and then I am out of any pedantic arguments you may wish to make.

I have worked in the UK over the cult's National Minimum Wage abuse, child education abuse and Information abuse. In every instance the UK authorities stopped being willing to protect UK citizens once they reached the Australian COSRECI barrier.

The cult is not a charity in the UK, but operates as if it is one due to the COSRECI cloaking. I have had UK government officials confirm to me that in the UK an Australian charity is treated by the UK officials as if it were a UK charity.

Larry Brennan covered the motives for this in his affidavit on Religious Cloaking.

The Australian Charitable status does directly affect every UK taxpayer and affects UK employees and children as well as foreign employees and children. UK government officials have confirmed this directly to me in writing.

End of discussion from me.

...and a good thing since you have no valid logical argument.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Roland, this is not "an Australian matter". It is also directly a UK matter, for example.

In the UK, the Charities Commission refused charity status to the cult, because it failed the UK test of what is a Charity. Since then the CofS, in the UK, has been hiding under the cloak of the Australian charity COSRECI.

I understand Aussie rules are much more lax over who or what can call themselves a charity and claim the monetry benefits a charity brings them. This was the work Neo was doing over the earlier Senate enqiry into charitable rules in Aussie land (anyone know what happened to that enquiry and how this one relates to it?).

So the Aussie charity directly affects evry UK citizen and any other country's citizens where the cult uses the COSRECI charity to hide under.

UK taxpayers are defrauded of the cult's taxation dues (Capital Gains tax, VAT, Income tax, National Insurance and PAYE) because it operates in the UK under the Australian Charity. UK employees of the cult are denied the National Minimum Wage because the cult is cloaked under Aussie Charity rules.

Your analysis that this charity scam only affects Aussies is quite wrong.

As well as financial dodging in the UK, the cult also uses the Aussie charitable status to avoid normal UK laws such as employment laws and trading laws.

Every UK citizen literally has a vested interest in this Inquiry. Both financial, moral and legal interest. Financially, every UK taxpayer is subsidising the cult's operations in the UK, by the cult's tax aviodance.

The cult uses its Aussie charitable staus cloaking to perpetuate enforced abortions in the UK, UK slave labour camps, blackmail pressure on UK citizens to donate, donate, donate, child labour violations, child education infringements, etc. It also uses the Aussie cloak to abuse foreign workers in the UK in violation of EC and UN labour laws.

Thanks for making that clear, great post. :) :wave:
 

RogerB

Crusader
I just PMed Carmel with a request for a link to the Senate Inquiry parameters and how to submit a report to them.

I've been off ESMB for quite a while and couldn't easily find links for the above and don't have time to trawl through all the threads to try and find the info.

Apologies if this is already glaringly viewable, maybe it's just me who missed it. But can I suggest an easy to see notice for those like me who might want to submit, but don't have time to go through hundreds of posts?

Lionheart . . . go here:

go to these links all is explained:
How to Write a Senate Inquiry Submission
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18185

Submissions for the Inquiry are now being accepted (May 2010)
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18118
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
My Apologies

Dear Carmel,
I've got to bring to you my personal apologies for my statements on "Marty starts to crack..." thread (as well as my former "signature" "I'm not a victim").

No ill was intended.

I can see now how hard you've been working to get truth to justice re $cn practices.

I know some Aussies from being in PAC RPF in 2003 (Mark Hanna, Stan Smith, Liz Wallace.. and some others). Nice people! I used to have more understanding with them than with many others.

Sorry again for having you offended... I'm all FOR successful inquiry!
(Broadly issued Questionnaire would help in that.. imho).
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Same here

The reason I haven't done a submission is because I have not been a witness to actual abuses or illegalities. I'm sure they don't want "hearsay" evidence.

There are books documenting the abuses, like Nancy Many, Marc Headley, Jeff Hawkins, and all the books that have been published years ago. Can these be entered into the testimony?

I have issues with some of the practice and philosophy, especially the OT levels. But I don't think it is the business of government to look into wacko philosophies, or to legislate against them. I don't want a government that can do that, frankly. They just need to focus on the abuse and the illegalities. And plenty of people ARE witnesses to those.

I'm just not one of them.

I am not an ex, not an Aussie. I had a brush with scn about 30 yrs ago, for a few months (at most). I saw someone (I cared for) being punished for something I did (quite innocently, BTW), as a public (not really understanding or knowing the inside workings of co$). He was put into some kind of rpf thing, conditions, whatever. I was sent in to see him - for - hell, I don't know. I was told to 'help him' get back on post, or something like that.

I was appalled, by what I felt in that room, by what I saw, what I sensed.
The hair stood up on the back of my neck. Every fiber of my being was on alert - and I knew my life depended on how I handled the situation. I had to play it very carefully in order to 'get out'. I had to get out and away, and I wasn't sure I could . . . I just knew I had to - get away, escape, somehow. It was a gut reaction.

I did not understand it, I just knew it.

To this day, I ask myself, Why would they let me see that? What was the point?

Well, it saved me - decades.

It scared the living daylights out of me. Evil does that. I paid attention to that.

Everything else I know and think about scn comes from reading books of other people's experiences, all of which have reinforced my initial feelings when I witnessed the shaming and abuse of a person - who just took it, allowed it, succumbed to it, gave in to it. Huh?

My gut reaction was to run, to save my life. I didn't understand it - I just f'g did it. And then I spent years trying to understand what the hell happened there - and WHY?

That is why I am here (and American, BTW - ahem). That is WHY.

How do I explain that to an inquiry without sounding as whacky as the scn'ists beliefs? Gees, Sirs and Ladies, I had a gut reaction . . .

Offpoint, I happened to read an 'ex's' letter to someone, made public by the author's own snafu. It was a disgruntled ex, but a follower of tech, and it was bizarre. I could hardly make sense of it, talk of being a last lifer, and about humans, referring to them like they were insects, some sort of lower life form.

To me, just a regular human being/person, the author came off very 'alien' - non-human - and I don't mean that in a complimentary way. Ever see that TV movie series "V" (either one)? The lizard beings posing as human, in order to take over earth? Well, that is how this person came off to me, as a alien lizard being, in a human 'suit', intent on taking earth from the 'human' life forms living here. (Over my dead fucking body).

That any 'religion' or belief system could turn normal humans into 'that' - something reptilian - in their viewpoint on life - and on other humans - is pure evil to me. Their 'higher' self has been turned off, by scn, and the reptilian brain has taken dominence. Think about how reptiles live/survive, whether it be a snake, or a lizard - or a dinosaur - and there you have it. Survive, is the only rule. By any means. End justifies the means. In a reptile it is natural. In a human, it is sociopathic - It is Evil.

So how do I explain THAT to an Inquiry. I'd come off as a nutcase, and probably do more harm to your cause, than good. The Inquiry needs solid first hand information, stories - evidence- from exes, not opinions/feelings from outsiders.

Am I wrong in that, Carmel? If you think I am wrong, tell me - and tell me what I could give to the Inquiry that would not be a detriment.

But, I must say, I am SHOCKED, after all the stories I have read on this board, that more of you, with first hand knowledge and experience, who spent decades inside, were raised in scn, haven't done your Inquiry submission. I am SHOCKED.

I find it as unbelievable as Carmel. Is it fear? Tell us why you have not - while there is still time to deal with it, give support, and change minds.

Even mine . . .
Bueller, Ferris Bueller? Anyone?

I am being flippant, but this is not funny. This Inquiry is dead serious.
Search your conscience - Can you help, can your story help?
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
How does an outsider back this up?

Wildcat, do you think the CoS should have tax exempt status as a charity?

If not, why not? Just speak your piece and do a submission. It can't hurt anything and it might help.

How does an outsider back this up? Gees, it is my opinion scn is not a religion and does not do charity. It is all self serving, to bring in new suckers/money, an endless supply of human fodder - to be sucked into the ant pile - so that the co$ can continue into infinitum, and suppport DM's high life with the likes of TC . . .

Without first hand knwoledge and info, inside stories, it is just an opinion. Officials/Gov't do not take seriously people who show up in public meetings, or write - and rant - without proof and back-up. Everyone just sees a quack and a werido - and discount not only the person, but the point of view.

Why clog up the works with outsider opinions - that might come off as mindless rantings of whackos? It only takes one, to jam it all up.

The Truth comes from the exes who lived it. Markus could write about his brother. He has a case.

I had an aquaintence, a person I truly liked - a lot - who died. That was such a shock to me. I can believe anything I want about that - that he might have lived IF he had sought medical help blah blah, BUT without any first hand info - and I have NONE - all I can do is speculate. I do not even know what he died from, just the vague info from scn, something rare, published in his obit. Yeah, right.

He was way too young to die. I hardly had time to know him - and I never knew he was a scn'ist until after he was gone. I got that from the obit. That sure explained a lot to me . . . Ooooh. And I wondered, did he go for medical help? Or did he die because he did not, and maybe did those carzy purif rundowns instead ???? How was he treated when he got sick? Did he die from medical neglect? Did he have to die? Was it fatal or could modern medicine have given him many more years - with his family?

But I have nothing personal to offer other than conjecture, my questions, my gut feelings, and the general distaste - dislike - distrust - sixth sense knee jerk reaction - of anything scn/cos/lrh/dm. It's a gut reaction - evil.

Nutcase !

To me, it is real, to others it comes off as whacko. I just can't see how that would help, that I could help - this Inquiry.
 

FinallyMe

Silver Meritorious Patron
I have been out of Scientology since 1982, and have therefore no knowledge at all about Miscavige or any of the related abuses. My "non-charity" experiences involve activities while in the GO from 1975-1978, which "no longer exists" and are therefore probably not relevant at all because the info is so staledated.
 

Lynn Fountain Campbell

Silver Meritorious Patron
I have been out of Scientology since 1982, and have therefore no knowledge at all about Miscavige or any of the related abuses. My "non-charity" experiences involve activities while in the GO from 1975-1978, which "no longer exists" and are therefore probably not relevant at all because the info is so staledated.

Your information would support the fact that the abuses have been going on for a very long time under one guise or another. I know of an instance from the 1950s, which I included in my report. All any of us has is bits and pieces. Trust these senators to be able to put the pieces together. But first, they need those pieces. The fact that you think it's important enough to express an opinion is data in itself. Even if it sounds wacko. This is what they count on -- the fact that the truth is so much stranger than any fiction anyone could manufacture. "The Big Lie" is allowed to stand, because nobody wants to look like a nut by saying the emperor has no clothes on.
 

RogerB

Crusader
I have been out of Scientology since 1982, and have therefore no knowledge at all about Miscavige or any of the related abuses. My "non-charity" experiences involve activities while in the GO from 1975-1978, which "no longer exists" and are therefore probably not relevant at all because the info is so staledated.

FinallyMe, :no:

It is important because it demonstrates a pattern of conduct! And that is very important.

In the USA, such evidence or proof of a pattern of conduct is integral to a RICCO Statute suit, for example.

Similarly here, the established pattern of conduct demonstrates the CofS is not a charitable enterprise and was not intended to be one.

That is the importance of what you have to say.

So please do not use that as an "excuse" to not contribute your submission.

R
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
The more data we give, even if it is "old", we will make it easier for them to evaluate the situation and see that it is in fact long term in nature.
For anyone who is reluctant to send in a submission because their data may not be relevant, just send it in. Err on the side of sending in irrelevant data. If it truly IS relevant than it will just be set aside for now. Perhaps it can be used later when there is a judicial inquiry. :yes:
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
**#@#!!! I just spent more than an hour writing a submission and when I clicked on the 'send' button, I got an error message from Outlook Express, which I don't even use, telling me that the message couldn't be sent.
This was addressed to the address for "other" than Oz people.
What can I do? The bloody submission was gone, somewhere into Cyberspace.
If I re-write the bloody thing, can I send it to someone on this Board, like Carmel, and get it forwarded?
I had this happen once before ( Lynn) and I had to give up on it. ##!!&***!

Challenge
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
**#@#!!! I just spent more than an hour writing a submission and when I clicked on the 'send' button, I got an error message from Outlook Express, which I don't even use, telling me that the message couldn't be sent.
This was addressed to the address for "other" than Oz people.
What can I do? The bloody submission was gone, somewhere into Cyberspace.
If I re-write the bloody thing, can I send it to someone on this Board, like Carmel, and get it forwarded?
I had this happen once before ( Lynn) and I had to give up on it. ##!!&***!

Challenge

First thing to do is write the submission in some program and *save* it; not in your email program itself? (although, even there, it should be saved in the 'sent folder', even if it thinks it was successfully sent. Did you look?)

So, save it as a 'doc' or 'pdf' file, crank up your email and send it as an attachment.

But, I'm assuming you were using some 'webmail' to do this and that's a good way to lose your work if you're composing directly.

Zinj
 

FoTi

Crusader
Just take a look at the Church of Scientology and their various front groups. What charity are they providing to the public to deserve their tax exemption?

What are they doing to help anybody other than the people that pay a lot of money for services, which is no different than any other business?

Where is the charity? What charity? Where does it exist if at all?

If you don't see any charity, write about it and do a submission. Otherwise the Church of Scientology is left not having to pay taxes to support wherever you live and you have to support your government while the Church of Scientology gets off scott free without having to pay taxes.

They are raking in the cash from their public and keeping the money, without doing anything for the community outside their doors. They are benefitting from whatever your taxes are paying for in your community, without doing anything charitable for the community, and they shouldn't be allowed to do that. No cult should be allowed to do that whether it's the Church of Scientology or some other cult.

Just make a submission on this issue. You don't have to have been beat up by another Scientologist or have witnessed some abuse on someone else.

You, as a taxpayer, are the effect of their tax exempt status, and the tax exempt status of any other group or cult that is taking advantage of the way the law is now. Why should you have to pay taxes and they don't? Do you like that?

They are abusing you, as a taxpayer, indirectly. They are getting away with not having to support the govt in the land where they operate. You are paying for their portion with you having higher taxes, to make up for the part that they are not paying, and they have a whole lot more money than you do. How are you or anyone else benefittiing from that? Where is their charity or their contribution to your society to make up for their not having to pay taxes?

Please make a submission and let them know that any group that has tax exempt status needs to be checked up on to verify that they are a charitable group for real....not just because they say they are.
 

Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
They are raking in the cash from their public and keeping the money, without doing anything for the community outside their doors. They are benefitting from whatever your taxes are paying for in your community, without doing anything charitable for the community, and they shouldn't be allowed to do that. No cult should be allowed to do that whether it's the Church of Scientology or some other cult.

Just make a submission on this issue. You don't have to have been beat up by another Scientologist or have witnessed some abuse on someone else.

Excellent point. As someone who did work with C of $ "PR"---I was in on many of their letter, phone, in person "Handlings". They are FIERCE, please don't miss this.

They are having writing campaigns, calls, etc. They no doubt are contacting
Any and all "Opinion Leaders" in Australia (Or anywhere else) who could
*possibly* help. ( I know it's "in the Senate", but Senators have lunches,
dinners, etc. and much can be gotten "cleared up" during such meetings).:stir::blah::pfft:

Scientologists no doubt are writing about how many charitable actions THEY do, daily,
and how having any sort of "test" re religion merely shows "Religious bigotry".

I know most of you "know this"---but if you truly knew how strong their efforts are to STOP Any and ALL things that *may* bring them problems---
you wouldn't waste *a* minute writing a submission.

Years ago the very idea that something like this could even happen, that a SENATOR in any country would ASK for information about religions, charities and a test re abuses and balance? COME ON!

Thanks to all who have worked so hard to get this going, too.
My best,

Tory/Magoo
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
First thing to do is write the submission in some program and *save* it; not in your email program itself? (although, even there, it should be saved in the 'sent folder', even if it thinks it was successfully sent. Did you look?)

So, save it as a 'doc' or 'pdf' file, crank up your email and send it as an attachment.

But, I'm assuming you were using some 'webmail' to do this and that's a good way to lose your work if you're composing directly.

Zinj

Yas. got so pissed that I couldn't think.
The submission is gone. I will write another in Word and send it as an attachment. I think that will work, and if not, at least I will not lose the submission.
Tks, Zinj.

Challenge

 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I'll get my submission in hopefully by this weekend, but definitely by the deadline.

Has information about the need for them been submitted on all the varous message boards including XSO? OCMB?
 

Carmel

Crusader
Fact AND/OR opinion, and response to Lurker5's post

The committee will accept opinions, and are interested in them.......Opinions are based on something, and if you include that something, then that helps paint the picture.

I've spoken to my kids about doing a submission. Zac has had a small amount of direct experience with the CofS, but Sam and Max haven't particularly. The three of them though, have had friends who have, have felt harassed by phone calls up until a year and a half ago, and have had friends they grew up with disconnect from them purely because of things their mother was involved in. They have seen *some* of what goes on, and have an opinion. If they do submissions, they'd be small I'd imagine, but they each have a reason or reasons why they think the CofS shouldn't have tax exempt status and that it is a harmful and profit organisation. (Hopefully they'll each get their submissions in by the cut off, but I can't hold a stick over them, coz they're way taller than me.......If I could I would! :coolwink: )

If you have an opinion on the matter, then you have a reason for that opinion. Ya can state that reason, and if it includes first hand experience, well and good. If it doesn't, that's not a problem.
 

RogerB

Crusader
**#@#!!! I just spent more than an hour writing a submission and when I clicked on the 'send' button, I got an error message from Outlook Express, which I don't even use, telling me that the message couldn't be sent.
This was addressed to the address for "other" than Oz people.
What can I do? The bloody submission was gone, somewhere into Cyberspace.
If I re-write the bloody thing, can I send it to someone on this Board, like Carmel, and get it forwarded?
I had this happen once before ( Lynn) and I had to give up on it. ##!!&***!

Challenge

It might be a spurious Outlook Express message . . . I do not use it, but my bloody computer asked me every morning if I want Outlook Express to condense my email flies to save space!!!

Check your sent folder in the email system you do use . . . you may have a record of a successful send. Otherwise, depending on the app you are using, you might have a record of it in your "drafts" folder as a default.

Rog
 
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