Article 9. * No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Eliminate what evidence? Do you want the RPF left in the garage on the off chance that their might be a raid in the next 4 years?

And what's the penalty for living in a garage?

There is no other evidence that they can destroy.

Copyalater.
 

Feral

Rogue male
Leave it alone Carmel.

This is someone else telling their story in their way. A way that's comfortable for them.

What others think about the way they tell their story is neither here nor there.
 
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Eliminate what evidence? Do you want the RPF left in the garage on the off chance that their might be a raid in the next 4 years?

And what's the penalty for living in a garage?

There is no other evidence that they can destroy.

Copyalater.


I can imagine a variety of documents relating to normal operating practices which might be pertinent to an official investigation, as one obvious example. I could list others but I don't want to give the OSA any ideas about things which are less obvious and potentially quite damaging to the church.

It's fun to be seen as "The One" who has announced "big news" about the Co$, but the temptation to draw attention to one's self must be balanced against the value of NOT tipping off the OSA about pending police matters or other potential Co$ legal liabilities.


Mark A. Baker
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scoots, that was a different scenario and a different time. The police weren't interested at all, back then. Prior to something finally popping and me calling you about our opportunity, I had approached every authority known to man and God, but had no interest or response. We then applied a strategy. With an opening finally, we applied a strategy to *get* the police and other authorities *interested*..........It worked. OK, then it was time for a different strat, and we got the Inquiry. As you know, it's gone ahead since then.

The stuff we exposed last year was in the past. The evidence left on what had occurred previously didn't change coz we spoke about it........In fact, if anything, it got others to come forward and corroborate that evidence.


Yep, but the "Inquiry" was a primary goal of that exposure back in November last year, and as ya know, the wheels are well in motion on several fronts since and because of that Inquiry. As you said, "the wheels of justice grind slowly". They'd go a bit faster though if the authorities could catch the CofS 'in the act', and that's my point.........Why blow that chance?


Not at all. BFG exposed new info. That info inspired many to act (including myself). I bet that with as far as BFG has gotten to date, that he wouldn't now be posting about something *current* which the authorities could use to nail the CofS.

If we continue to give the CofS a heads up on what the authorities could nail them for, then all we are doing is delaying and/or impeding the justice/accountability/change we are wanting.

It's pretty black and white to me. I don't understand why we're having to debate this issue.

We are debating this point because you are saying that the police will raid Dundas and that "we" should do nothing until they do.

I am saying that I've been hearing about all sorts of abuses from the ANZO RPF from several others and now BIA, and I would like the world to know that these sort of abuses are occurring here right now and have been for a while.

If BIA wants to publicize the abuses that he/she has seen, why not?

It IS a message board for those who've suffered from this toxic cult. And, if a fellow sufferer wants to spill the beans, so be it.

I haven't been in the RPF, but it seems like BIA has.

And if BIA wants the RPF to get a decent sleep, who am I to say "No" on the chance that the police MAY catch the cult in the act?

I thought this was about ending the abuses regardless.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
For those of you that are now wondering whether all the relevant authorities have been contacted. Well yes, of course, in far more detail than has been put on this board too. As for keeping this quiet until the raids, I want to ask, because, as I said I've just been speaking to the authorities.

What fucking raids? I didn't know there were raids planned.

Has int base been raided? You know, where DM prances around slapping people and making them sleep in "pigs berthing"? You know, where he had execs shitting outdoors into plastic bags? and where the key execs on the planet are locked in SP hall?

What if those early critics waited until the raid before doing anything at all on the message boards?

Would anyone even know of the torment within those walls? Would Anon have gotten enough to sink there teeth into?

As for not wanting anyone to think that there have been leaks from inside, oops sorry, there have been.

One other thing to leave you with; Crimes within the CofS. Hmm, Carmel's right, something doesn't make sense.

And pardon me for talking to the RPFers, although I'd early love to speak to my old mates, I was speaking allegorically.

Am I doing anything else wrong?

Cop ya later!

What you are doing is brilliant. :D:thumbsup::happydance::yes:
Keep speaking out because in the end that is what brings the truth to light. Who knows who is reading this, we will never know.... more and more info can come forward and action taken.

I wait with baited breath for your next postings. :D
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
For those of you that are now wondering whether all the relevant authorities have been contacted. Well yes, of course, in far more detail than has been put on this board too. As for keeping this quiet until the raids, I want to ask, because, as I said I've just been speaking to the authorities.

What fucking raids? I didn't know there were raids planned.

Has int base been raided? You know, where DM prances around slapping people and making them sleep in "pigs berthing"? You know, where he had execs shitting outdoors into plastic bags? and where the key execs on the planet are locked in SP hall?

What if those early critics waited until the raid before doing anything at all on the message boards?

Would anyone even know of the torment within those walls? Would Anon have gotten enough to sink there teeth into?

As for not wanting anyone to think that there have been leaks from inside, oops sorry, there have been.

One other thing to leave you with; Crimes within the CofS. Hmm, Carmel's right, something doesn't make sense.

And pardon me for talking to the RPFers, although I'd early love to speak to my old mates, I was speaking allegorically.

Am I doing anything else wrong?

Cop ya later!
And I was worried about you giving away information about yourself and attracting undue attention from OSA. What a fool I was. You know exactly what you're doing. Nice work.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Yes, BIA, I have to agree.
This story MUST be told and if this is how you want to play it then so be it.
It's your story, let it blow.
 

Carmel

Crusader
'What's good for the goose is good for the gander'

Eliminate what evidence? Do you want the RPF left in the garage on the off chance that their might be a raid in the next 4 years?
<snip>
Living quarters underneath the squash courts as you have described is indeed something more than one authority in this country would be interested and up in arms about. Hearing about those living quarters would be one thing, but *busting* those living quarters (especially where foreigners with confiscated passports have been forced to live) would *indeed* be something else.

Leave it alone Carmel.

This is someone else telling their story in their way. A way that's comfortable for them.

What others think about the way they tell their story is neither here nor there.
I'm back from dinner now, and I see that you edited your post, Feral. I won't go into what you previously posted, but I'll say this.........Just as BIA can tell their story, I too am free to call it as I see it.

You've known me......If I'm interested, if I object, if I think it's harmful, and if I think I could have some affect in regard to improving things......then (rightly or wrongly) I won't leave it alone. I have my own moral code and am not about to cross that coz it might step on a few toes..........In this instance I have the right to communicate my opinions on the matter, and as far as I know, on this board I have the privilege to be able to do so.

We are debating this point because you are saying that the police will raid Dundas and that "we" should do nothing until they do.
Not what I said.

I am saying that I've been hearing about all sorts of abuses from the ANZO RPF from several others and now BIA, and I would like the world to know that these sort of abuses are occurring here right now and have been for a while.
I get it, I've heard them too. However, for the first time that I know of, there's a whistleblower with current info that could nail the CofS here in Sydney. I haven't seen this scenario in ANZO before, where the CofS could be busted 'in the act' and where there are certain authorities keen to be able to do it. I just don't get why that opportunity would be thrown away and lost. Is that so hard to understand?

If BIA wants to publicize the abuses that he/she has seen, why not?
"Why not?" - Coz if BIA wants these abuses to stop, then maybe he or she could/would do better by informing authorities, rather than posting publicly and giving the CofS a heads up so as to avoid prosecution.

BIA can do what they want to, but hey, so can I, and in this instance I have chosen to state my concerns.

It IS a message board for those who've suffered from this toxic cult. And, if a fellow sufferer wants to spill the beans, so be it.

I haven't been in the RPF, but it seems like BIA has.

And if BIA wants the RPF to get a decent sleep, who am I to say "No" on the chance that the police MAY catch the cult in the act?
I believe that this a valid perspective, however I don't believe that it makes my perspective on all this *invalid*. Good to look at things from all perspectives and the different consequences, IMO.

I thought this was about ending the abuses regardless.
To me, that's what it *is* about, and it's why I am communicating on the matter.
 
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Carmel

Crusader
Let's start again.......

Hey BIA, check this out!

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/economics_ctte/public_benefit_test_10/report/report.pdf

It's the report and recommendations from the Senate Inquiry, which had support across the board in Parliament.

Up until a year ago in Australia our pleas to be heard (and for justice) fell on deaf ears, but that's not the case in this country now. The word is out, the ball is rolling, and it's at the stage now where things are getting nailed or will be. If you're willing to work with authorities in this country who have the power to expedite this, then your info in *their* hands would be valuable, and that'd be great.

Leave it with ya. :)
 
Living quarters underneath the squash courts as you have described is indeed something more than one authority in this country would be interested and up in arms about.

@Carmel, there are no living quarters under the squash courts, have a re-read of what I wrote.

Hearing about those living quarters would be one thing, but *busting* those living quarters (especially where foreigners with confiscated passports have been forced to live) would *indeed* be something else.

Those foreigners with their passports confiscated was something I wasn't going to mention. Along with several other key things.

It doesn't matter if they *were* in the garage and *now* they are somewhere else for the purposes any raid that you can organise. The only *raid* you were likely to get where it was important where they were dormed was council or health department and both of those need to give notice, so little was put in jeopardy by my posting.

Cop ya later!
 

Carmel

Crusader
<snip>
Those foreigners with their passports confiscated was something I wasn't going to mention. Along with several other key things.
I think it's common knowledge that DM has ordered that RPFers be sent to foreign countries where escape from the RPF is so much harder......Not much chop being in a foreign country with no passport, no money and no contacts.

It doesn't matter if they *were* in the garage and *now* they are somewhere else for the purposes any raid that you can organise. The only *raid* you were likely to get where it was important where they were dormed was council or health department and both of those need to give notice, so little was put in jeopardy by my posting.
That's not how I see it, BIA. I believe that certain Depts in both the Federal police and NSW State police would indeed be interested in that which you've written about, and would take the appropriate action.

For the record, *I* wouldn't be organising any raid........That's something the coppas do, if they think there's something there to find.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
holy

Prior to coming back to Australia Mark had been in the US for about 15 years. His last post there was FR FSO. He took over the Captain post in 2003 but only lasted until early '05 before he was busted.

One of the things that had come up was that he fancied Rikke Beeny. She used to be in RTC and was at the FSO as one of the Reps in 1997 when the Lisa McPhearson incident happened. She was banished to ANZO over her involvement. Anyway Mark liked her and they flirted and held hands before it came up in his sec checking. He was out of his depth and she's a pretty good lair so she denied it all and as he was going down anyway that was further used to push him down, her claiming she had no part in it. In the Sea Org if you fall in love it's instant invest. Good place for a eunuch.

Mark gets busted and sent to Dundas, then in due course he's slated for the RPF. It would be normal to send him to PAC base but he overstayed his visa by nearly 14 years in the US and can never return so the people handling him, including the RTC terminal (Lowry, I think) and the CMO on down to the RPF I/C Marlana O'Leary for some special reason wanted him hidden.

The Sea Org must be the most withholdy and secretive group in the world - so much for all that sec checking.

They didn't want anyone to know he was off post. So they devised a plan to hold him under the two indoor squash courts there on the east side of the property. The slope of the roughly excavated dirt floor allows for a little space under the building where tools, junk or a mower might be kept. No one goes there so it was decided they would keep him under this building.

At the entrance it is large enough to stand up in but it’s only small and the ground slopes upwards so the area he had for standing was about 7 meters by 4 meters. This is on the lower end of the property and when it rains the floor gets very muddy. It’s clay too so it sticks like shit to a blanket, everything that touches it ends up caked. The space is not well ventilated either and has that mildewy, musty smell. He was under guard in that location every day for about 6 months.

A guy from the US by the name of Kip Engen was there with him most of the time. They would go there early in the morning before 7am and stay there all day till it was dark. They would go into one of the other buildings and he would shower and go to bed before 10pm. After about 3 months of this he was protesting pretty badly and Marlana finally relented and let him go for short walks for some exercise in the afternoon with his guard.

So he was in there for 3 months before being allowed to go for a walk!

I honestly don't know why he didn't flip his fucking wig.

Or at least do something about his predicament!

Cop ya later!

Holy fuck . . .:omg:

Sorry I am late to the party, BIA - Hello ! :wave: and Welcome :welcome:

Holy fuck . . . :omg: and I've only just begun reading this thread.

Holy fuck.

(Am I going to get banned for that? Holy fuck.)
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Holy

Holy ever-living f ---

So, during WWII, people heard rumors about terrible things going on in camps - and no one believed - or could believe that something so evil could exist, be going on. Then near the end of the war, the soldiers began liberating the death camps . . . .

And the whole world was in stunned disbelief - with the proof before their very eyes . .

And yet there are people, countries, today who still think it never happened.

Well, if the rumors had not floated about, and the Nazis had successfully erased all the camps and people before they got busted, would we even know today? Would there just be relatives all over the world wondering what the hell happened to so and so - I guess they died in the war . . .

Evil depends on people NOT BELIEVING it exists, on people not telling, keeping the silence - for whatever reason. Then it carries on right under our noses - and we all pretend it is not happening.

Somebody has to stand the fuck up and TELL IT. The Aussies have done that, and BFG did it, and many others are doing it, and here we do it, at Marty's they do it, and by word of mouth it gets out, goes around.

But before all that - and no one freaking gave a damn - for years and years and years - there were the early whistle blowers - the Old Guard I think they are called. What is happening to end the evil of scn/co$ today is standing on the shoulders of all who came before, some who are known, some names you may never know, people anihilated by fair game policy . . . Brave souls all - in a war against this insidious evil.

All things measured, in my mind, about what I just read from BIA, at the risk of co$, with this exposure, making moves to hide the evidence of these crimes before any raids - and the other side of it, EXXPOSING THIS - AND the possibility the RPFers will get moved to another and hopefully better location, hell just being able to move, perhaps giving someone else a chance to run, whatever - all of it measured, in my mind - I say fucking tell it - tell it tell it tell it fucking tell it. Maybe the cops can catch them in the act of covering it up, trying to hide it. Maybe the areas are already under police surveillance and this post is just the ignition fire the investigators want - and perhaps planned - to get the co$ to move - and reveal themselves.

But until someone inside TALKS - and/or someone on the rpf - when the cops arrive - some slave stands up and says, FUCK YEAH I AM A SLAVE AND I WANT OUT -THIS IS A CONCENTRATION CAMP AND I HAVE BEEN IMPRISONED AGAINST MY WILL - AND ABUSED ABOMINABLY - FOR NO LEGAL REASON OR CRIME - the cops can't do crap.

And most of the world just goes on believing, Nah, no way man, this can't be going on - this is not really happening . . . people don't behave like that - normal people don't do stuff like that.

Yeah, well - everybody should be talking - everyone that had this happen to them, anyone who knows about this happening - should be talking about it - LOUDLY - and not taking no for an answer. If the cops aren't listening or can't do anything about it (yet), then tell the world - anyone who will listen.

THIS IS WHY.

:thumbsup: BIA - and PLEASE - KEEP ON TALKING - but co-ordinate it with the authorities - unless they are not listening - or unless their hands are tied - then make a lot of noise every where. Draw attention to it in any way possible - and never stop creating waves EVERYWHERE.

Thank you for telling someone's story. Horrible story. Fucking horrible.
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
OK, so maybe you didn't give the church the gift of your silence, either knowingly or unknowingly.

Maybe it was pinched.

If you doubt it's value then try this, walk into HCO tonight and say, "I'm talking, that's it, I''m telling everything!"

You could also ring Vicki Dunstan on +61 2 9638 5200 and tell her you're going to the media.

That's a fair test, isn't it?

Tell me what happens, OK?

Cop ya later!

If any one took my last suggestion literally and came to the conclusion it was unworkable. Well that is the point exactly. As a wise old bear suggested.

But for the purpose of illustrating the "Silence is Golden" it is entirely workable.

If any Scios in general thought about actually opening that box of worms your second thoughts would tell you more than I could about the church. ;-)

Cop ya later!

Blown in ANZO makes a very good point about silence.

Aquiring your silence is the whole purpose of disconnection, it is the purpose of fair game, it is the purpose of the IAS, it is the purpose of the GO/OSA. Your silence is the one thing that the Co$ needs above all else to enable it to continue its ritual abuse against its members. It is the point that enables or destroys any criminal group.

That stolen voice is the worst stickler when it comes to recovery. The abuse we suffered was bad enough. Not being able to report it, to talk about it, or sometimes to even admit to ourselves that it happened is the kicker. It just sits and festers. The victims of crime just go on and on thinking they are alone, they sit in fear of repercussions, and nothing ever gets handled.

So blow the whistle, I say! Blow it long and loud. Maybe the sound will even reach into the Co$.

And while we are waiting for the slow wheels of justice to turn, perhaps there will be some slight improvement in conditions due to the pressure. Remember that photo of the RPF berthing in PAC that you were all so shocked about? The one with the row upon row of three high bunk beds? Well, that was the improved one, and it was a BIG improvement. All I can say is, it's too bad no-one photographed the "berthing" they had before that. It was in a garage....on the concrete floor....looked like the rows of homeless people in the subway in Philly except more crowded. Also looked like the one that came before it at Flag, the Mecca of Technical Perfection. And like Toronto's "decks" berthing.

The level of degradation serves to invalidate people to the point where they go into agreement with the idea that their captors are correct, that they have done something so horrible that they deserve this crap. I have actually heard this come out of the mouths of people in these conditions. It's part of what they have to "cognite" in order to get out. Then they are not only silent about the abuse, they have justified it to the point some of them then dish it out to others.

If we can reverse that flow, I say go for it.
 

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
BIA great posts and the more stories we can get out there that expose scientology abuses the better.:thumbsup:

However having said that I think for anyone with this kind of indepth info in the future should consider a different approach.
No matter how long it takes for action to occur the more we involve the relevant Government Authorities the better. Perhaps a quicker way to expose it is get the media involved to dig around and run a story exposing this.
Some of our stories are perhaps to old to find real evidence for the authorities to act on.
But those stories where evidence is perhaps still available we need to treat them differently.

EXPOSE it before scio can react. Otherwise we complain, scio remedies the problem the authorities investigate then there is no evidence and we look bad and we all know sea org staff will protect the group even if it means lying to the authorities.

In my experience the biggest gains in exposing scio and its actions have been when we have had authorities involved.

With out the authorities we are kind of like barking dogs at the heels of scio, not that that is bad, cause if we bark load enough we will get the attention but at the end of the day we need legislation changes otherwise scio will just continue dodging and covering up.

Anybody with an inside story especially one were evidence is currently available should contact key people on this board as they have the contacts to start an action occuring. Carmel would be a good place to start (Hope you don't mind me mentioning you Carmel)

At the end of the day we all want the same thing and that is an end to the abuse in its many forms from scientology.:yes:
 
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mate

Patron Meritorious
Enough is enough. This is addressed to Feral, Carmel, Panda, Scooter, Kookaburra, and now Illegal Alien. This thread is being hi-jacked by what appears to be some kind of competition to become the key adviser to BIA. This is derailing this, to me, a very important thread. Karen's thread got hijacked in a very similar manner.

If you have got some advise for BIA, PM him/her, no one else is interested! That's right PERSONAL MESSAGE him/her. And if you want to attack me, or thank me, or make some comment on this, that's fine but do it by PM and not muddy this thread any further.

David.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Holy ever-living f ---

So, during WWII, people heard rumors about terrible things going on in camps - and no one believed - or could believe that something so evil could exist, be going on. Then near the end of the war, the soldiers began liberating the death camps . . . .

And the whole world was in stunned disbelief - with the proof before their very eyes . .

And yet there are people, countries, today who still think it never happened.

Well, if the rumors had not floated about, and the Nazis had successfully erased all the camps and people before they got busted, would we even know today? Would there just be relatives all over the world wondering what the hell happened to so and so - I guess they died in the war . . .

Evil depends on people NOT BELIEVING it exists, on people not telling, keeping the silence - for whatever reason. Then it carries on right under our noses - and we all pretend it is not happening.

Somebody has to stand the fuck up and TELL IT. The Aussies have done that, and BFG did it, and many others are doing it, and here we do it, at Marty's they do it, and by word of mouth it gets out, goes around.

But before all that - and no one freaking gave a damn - for years and years and years - there were the early whistle blowers - the Old Guard I think they are called. What is happening to end the evil of scn/co$ today is standing on the shoulders of all who came before, some who are known, some names you may never know, people anihilated by fair game policy . . . Brave souls all - in a war against this insidious evil.

All things measured, in my mind, about what I just read from BIA, at the risk of co$, with this exposure, making moves to hide the evidence of these crimes before any raids - and the other side of it, EXXPOSING THIS - AND the possibility the RPFers will get moved to another and hopefully better location, hell just being able to move, perhaps giving someone else a chance to run, whatever - all of it measured, in my mind - I say fucking tell it - tell it tell it tell it fucking tell it. Maybe the cops can catch them in the act of covering it up, trying to hide it. Maybe the areas are already under police surveillance and this post is just the ignition fire the investigators want - and perhaps planned - to get the co$ to move - and reveal themselves.

But until someone inside TALKS - and/or someone on the rpf - when the cops arrive - some slave stands up and says, FUCK YEAH I AM A SLAVE AND I WANT OUT -THIS IS A CONCENTRATION CAMP AND I HAVE BEEN IMPRISONED AGAINST MY WILL - AND ABUSED ABOMINABLY - FOR NO LEGAL REASON OR CRIME - the cops can't do crap.

And most of the world just goes on believing, Nah, no way man, this can't be going on - this is not really happening . . . people don't behave like that - normal people don't do stuff like that.

Yeah, well - everybody should be talking - everyone that had this happen to them, anyone who knows about this happening - should be talking about it - LOUDLY - and not taking no for an answer. If the cops aren't listening or can't do anything about it (yet), then tell the world - anyone who will listen.

THIS IS WHY.

:thumbsup: BIA - and PLEASE - KEEP ON TALKING - but co-ordinate it with the authorities - unless they are not listening - or unless their hands are tied - then make a lot of noise every where. Draw attention to it in any way possible - and never stop creating waves EVERYWHERE.

Thank you for telling someone's story. Horrible story. Fucking horrible.

Fucking good post! (Just going with the flow here, all the F's made me laugh.)
I'm so excited BIA is here.
 

skollie

Silver Meritorious Patron
Holy fuck . . .:omg:

Sorry I am late to the party, BIA - Hello ! :wave: and Welcome :welcome:

Holy fuck . . . :omg: and I've only just begun reading this thread.

Holy fuck.

(Am I going to get banned for that? Holy fuck.)

What Lurker5 said.

welcome BIA!
 
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