At the CORE of the onion. Logic? of Magick?

[VaD]

There is a heated and highly intellectual discussion going on on Jeff's blog about mental manipulation. There are many great link in the thread, too (about cults, etc...)
http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/mental-manipulation/
It's all very and highly intellectual. Yet, I don't see the end to these speculations, without getting into Hubbard's "Magick".
As I see from reports here, Hubbard was into "magick" himself. Aleister Crowley was "his good friend." I saw here also that LRH never confirmed a word at beng a "scientologist" himself.
What was he then? - I don't care. I want to have the core of being charmed and under spell.

Now!
I read Dianetics in 1993. It was a wild time in Russia. And I was not so educated as to see the broader picture of things around me (meaning - no critical thinking developed fully. Not just me, all Russia was in confusion).
Was Dianetics scientific enough to me? - Hell, yeah! Hubbard threw in there SO many new terms for me.
Now I see I was CHARMED by all those "scientific" names he invented.

Is this a science and logic, or Hubard's Magick in action? (which one makes one stick to and defend Scientology?)

If it's not scientific, what's at the core?

P.S. I think Mystic will answer better than anyone else.

 

[Alanzo]

There is a heated and highly intellectual discussion going on on Jeff's blog about mental manipulation. There are many great link in the thread, too (about cults, etc...)
http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/mental-manipulation/
It's all very and highly intellectual. Yet, I don't see the end to these speculations, without getting into Hubbard's "Magick".
As I see from reports here, Hubbard was into "magick" himself. Aleister Crowley was "his good friend." I saw here also that LRH never confirmed a word at beng a "scientologist" himself.
What was he then? - I don't care. I want to have the core of being charmed and under spell.

Now!
I read Dianetics in 1993. It was a wild time in Russia. And I was not so educated as to see the broader picture of things around me (meaning - no critical thinking developed fully. Not just me, all Russia was in confusion).
Was Dianetics scientific enough to me? - Hell, yeah! Hubbard threw in there SO many new terms for me.
Now I see I was CHARMED by all those "scientific" names he invented.

Is this a science and logic, or Hubard's Magick in action? (which one makes one stick to and defend Scientology?)

If it's not scientific, what's at the core?

Deception.

Everything that exists in Scientology, exists there to deceive you.

Its truths and its shining ideals are only there to attach you to its lies.

Scientology was brought into being as a spiritual deception, it was intentionally developed with more and more layers of spiritual deception, and it will continue as a spiritual deception. It will never be anything else. It is so in its essence.

Scientology is a big toxic pool of spiritual deception.

 

[VaD]

Deception.

Everything that exists in Scientology, exists there to deceive you.

Its truths and its shining ideals are only there to attach you to its lies.

Scientology was brought into being as a spiritual deception, it was intentionally developed with more and more layers of spiritual deception, and it will continue as a spiritual deception. It will never be anything else. It is so in its essence.

Scientology is a big toxic pool of spiritual deception.

I agree.
But - how can it be true to some Scentologist? How can HE understand this "deception"?

BTW, to me, it's not a deception i.e. It's a Magick (without hypnosis, suggestions or else)

P.S. We all were under that spell... (except may be Zinj). We've got to know what that spell was.

 

[Alanzo]

I agree.
But - how can it be true to some Scentologist? How can HE understand this "deception"?

BTW, to me, it's not a deception i.e. It's a Magick (without hypnosis, suggestions or else)

P.S. We all were under that spell... (except may be Zinj). We've got to know what that spell was.

I understand exactly what you are talking about, and I understand fully your need to understand. I had that same purpose when I was getting out.

For me, studying social psychology and the technology of brainwashing illuminated everything about what Hubbard was actually doing, rather than listening to what he was *saying* he was doing with Scientology.

 

[VaD]

I understand exactly what you are talking about, and I understand fully your need to understand. I had that same purpose when I was getting out.

For me, studying social psychology and the technology of brainwashing illuminated everything about what Hubbard was actually doing, rather than listening to what he was *saying* he was doing with Scientology.

to me it's more like getting our *strings* (of being attached to Scn) out of Aleister Crowley, magicians and others who affected people's EMOTIONS and FEELINGS rather than their mind. imho

 

[Mystic]

The darkbeings who conjured the hubbard thing were really slick. I have to take my hat off to them for isolating the Eureka Phenomena (they had hubbard-thing call it a "cognition") in such a manner to make you and I have an experience of "Wow, man O man, I'm really finding out things."...and all that carrying on. I walked around for 3 months one time with a so-called "floating TA". Yeah, sure. That and a few dollars will get you a cup of coffee and maybe even a Danish.

Excellent job of deception!

You and I get a Purple Heart for being suckered in.

They get a black turd.

 

[VaD]

Mystic..
I like your posts, and I loved your answer. Yet, it's quite mysterious to me.
Here's what I came to: LRH CHARMED people (even thru his writings) and put a SPELL onto people to follow his path.
(Some might say that I'm mad and full of illogical things. but what if????)

I just want to know simple answer. Not even for myself but for those who are still in.

 

[degraded being]

Mystic..
I like your posts, and I loved your answer. Yet, it's quite mysterious to me.
Here's what I came to: LRH CHARMED people (even thru his writings) and put a SPELL onto people to follow his path.
(Some might say that I'm mad and full of illogical things. but what if????)

I just want to know simple answer. Not even for myself but for those who are still in.

Using words like "charmed" and "spell" is one way to talk about it. It can also be talked about as behaviour control. manipulation, extended hypnosis, deception etc.
If you only use words like "spell" and "majick" it has limted value in analyzing how a person is taken over and controlled.

The "spell" is the end result. Talking about HOW the spell was cast is important in understanding what happened.
"Spell" and "majick" have some romantic or poetic quality to them which can make them attractive. But in the end, it is far better to use accurate words in an analytical way. Being "romantic" is part of the mindset that makes people easy targets for people who are scammers and liars. Notice I did not use the word "magicians" at the end of the last sentence.

 

[VaD]

Using words like "charmed" and "spell" is one way to talk about it. It can also be talked about as behaviour control. manipulation, extended hypnosis, deception etc.
If you only use words like "spell" and "majick" it has limted value in analyzing how a person is taken over and controlled.

The "spell" is the end result. Talking about HOW the spell was cast is important in understanding what happened.
"Spell" and "majick" have some romantic or poetic quality to them which can make them attractive. But in the end, it is far better to use accurate words in an analytical way. Being "romantic" is part of the mindset that makes people easy targets for people who are scammers and liars. Notice I did not use the word "magicians" at the end of the last sentence.

Thanks!
Scientology has some good logical answers. Along with that it gives one "beautiful" answers. (those are about Charms and Spells.
Latter ones I want Mystic to say something about.

 

[JBTrendy]

Where are we heading to?

These topics are all very fine and it reminds me of the path I've been through when I joined this board 6 months ago.

At the end of the day this is like looking in a back miror and park on the side of the road to untangle the influences we've been subjected to.

Very worthy process that took me 3 months flat out to EP.

But now I'm back on the driving seat of life and need to look ahead in the distance to create a future that could be of some kind of value.

Having been a Scientologist have given me increased knowledge and abilities that are now part of me.

That's how it is and denying that would be denying myself.

Is that what was mentioned as being under LRH spell or Magic?

Well when there's no more skin on the onion to be taken off what remains is the stone that has always been there in the core of the being that is itself the being on a metaphorical sense. But now it has been polished you can see it shine like a diamond.

So what I am going to do with that has to be a piece of Art at least to my own perspective.

Where are we heading to now is the question I want to ask you my dear friends here who I know can understand me?

I'm working on the answer and will submit it to you soon but you're welcome to share your views on the subject.

ALL2UALL

 

[Infinite]

Thanks!
Scientology has some good logical answers.

Can you mention one good logical answer Scientology provides. Yep, just one.

 

[olska]

One factor is that scientology appeals to our desire to be "god-like."

We were promised that we could be GODS: we could heal and control our bodies, our minds, the "mest" universe.

We could have anything we ever thought we wanted (positive postulates that WORK), we could control other people (using the Tone Scale and other "tools" of manipulation and control), we could realize all our dreams including our personal dreams for fame, fortune, beautiful lovers, as well as our dreams for a safe, sane, orderly world without war, crime, etc. etc. where everybody loves everybody and life is beautiful...

Who amongst us wouldn't want to be a GOD and have all that power?

IMO that's how we were hooked, that's why so many stayed for so long -- because they thought they were actually achieving that power. Every little bit of "win" in improving abilities (which can and does happen at least for some people on the lower level services) made people think it was "real" and that some day they would have ALL the power they desired. They hungered for more and more; they stayed hoping to get it.

It can be a real shock to wake up one day and realize that you are not much more than a grain of sand, only one amongst some six-billion human beings on the planet, no better, no worse, and that you really don't have much power over much of anything and that you are a loooooong way from being "God" of the universe.

Sadly, some never realize it and continue to live in their self-important delusion while most of life goes on around them completely unaffected by their "postulates."

 

[Type4_PTS]

Can you mention one good logical answer Scientology provides. Yep, just one.

How to get someone to empty their bank accounts and go into debt to buy your services that don't even deliver what's promised.

 

[Type4_PTS]

what's at the core?

I'm really on this same path to fully understand the nature of Scn. I had some pretty decent critical thinking skills prior to my getting in and it doesn't make sense to me that I would have got involved so deeply.
My feeling at this point is that Alonzo is spot on, that the deception and the intent to deceive was there from Day 1. And what HE studied seems to be essential (in my opinion) to really understanding WTF happened to us; the subject of social psychology as well as the tech of brainwashing. Two weekends ago I got to meet Steve Hassan for the first time. He is himself a cult survivor and for the past 35 years has counseled literally thousands of people leaving various cults including scientology. I would recommend that you (and everyone previously involved with scientology) watch his ten minute speech that was videotaped, as well as his hour long discussion with Larry Brennan and Nancy Many. For those of us who *do* want to understand, I'm convinced that he has some essential information for us.
All of those videos are available to watch here on this thread:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18340

Steve's 10 minute speech is in the 5th and 6th video of post# 1. And then the discussion is in post# 2 . The audio isn't as good in parts of the 10 min speech as it was done outside and the wind got pretty nasty for a few mins, but the beginning of it IS clear.

 

[JBTrendy]

GODS by Olka

One factor is that scientology appeals to our desire to be "god-like."

We were promised that we could be GODS: we could heal and control our bodies, our minds, the "mest" universe.

We could have anything we ever thought we wanted (positive postulates that WORK), we could control other people (using the Tone Scale and other "tools" of manipulation and control), we could realize all our dreams including our personal dreams for fame, fortune, beautiful lovers, as well as our dreams for a safe, sane, orderly world without war, crime, etc. etc. where everybody loves everybody and life is beautiful...

Who amongst us wouldn't want to be a GOD and have all that power?

IMO that's how we were hooked, that's why so many stayed for so long -- because they thought they were actually achieving that power. Every little bit of "win" in improving abilities (which can and does happen at least for some people on the lower level services) made people think it was "real" and that some day they would have ALL the power they desired. They hungered for more and more; they stayed hoping to get it.

It can be a real shock to wake up one day and realize that you are not much more than a grain of sand, only one amongst some six-billion human beings on the planet, no better, no worse, and that you really don't have much power over much of anything and that you are a loooooong way from being "God" of the universe.

Sadly, some never realize it and continue to live in their self-important delusion while most of life goes on around them completely unaffected by their "postulates."

Interesting post that I remember having seen on an other time in another thread.

That's true that some people do get trapped in this God-like thingy.

But tell me what's wrong in being king of your own kingdom as long as you want others to reach the same altitude.

Do you remember about this scale of groups that at the top of it have this concept of associated terminals that is the way OTs are operating with one another.

This always rang the bell to me of these old brotherhood of knights of the round table.

And you will agree with me that some people do make a difference and have theyr postulates stick. They could be Scientologists or not.

Look while I'm writing this I'm watching the third NBA final game. What about Coby Bryant and his fellow players? These guys are pretty good and even considered as Gods by many folks dreaming of playing along on the same grounds that are attainable to a very happy few who got there because of lots of postulates turned into reality.

So my friend along this kind of line do you have any failed purpose?

Sometimes it's hard to rekindle them but what effect did you want to create that got somehow smashed or squashed or invalidated or whatever make up your daylight and delight?

ALL2U

 

[Lermanet_com]

Over the years many people have said "you should write a book"..but, English was my worst subject, though I did take 4 years of Latin.

My story wont be about how bad $cientology is, or what they have done or do. Mine will be my best effort to show how the fraud works. Yes Hubbard was doing magic, yes.... He was also doing expert stage hypnotism and 'setting' stage techniques, sadistically.

My definition of magic is anything that is used to help direct and focus attention toward the desired manifestation.....


...before you understand the techniques being used, after that it is science.

Are things like $centology and it's big brother the Military Industrial Complex what Dr Robert Oppenheimer (The Manhattan Project) was warning us about?

The year is 1955.. the dawn of the Atomic age! The unspeakable devastation of Nagaski and Hiroshima are fresh in the public mind. I was taught to "duck and cover!"

One of the developers of this extraordinary technology was Dr Robert Oppenheimer, in the Manhattan Project. Yet.. in 1955 he made a speech to the American Psychological Association implying that the nuclear bomb is "trivial" compared to the threat posed by the techniques of psychological manipulation.

From page 214 in The Journal of Atomic Scientists.. 1955

May I present physicist Robert Oppenheimer.

Quote:

"In the last ten years physicists have been extraordinarily noisy about the immense powers, that largely through their efforts, but through other efforts as well have come into the possession of man, powers notably and strikingly for very large scale and dreadful destruction.

We have spoken of our responsibilities and our obligations to society in terms that sound very provincial, because the psychologist can hardly do anything without realizing that for him the acquisition of knowledge opens up the most terrifying prospects of controlling what people do and how they feel. This is true for all of you who are engaged in practice, and as the corpus of psychology gains in certitude and subtlety and skill.

I can see that the physicists pleas that what he discovers be used with humanity and be used wisely will seem trivial compared to those pleas which you will have to make and for which you will be responsible."

Read it a couple times if you need to..I had to,, this takes my breath away. One of the developers of the atomic bomb just told the APA psychologists that what they are learning is far more dangerous than the atomic bomb. It makes THE BOMB seem trivial!

And, magic might also be defined as "not knowing how the trick was done"

-----------------

arnie lerma

 

[programmer_guy]

Look while I'm writing this I'm watching the third NBA final game. What about Coby Bryant and his fellow players? These
guys are pretty good and even considered as Gods by many folks dreaming of playing along on the same grounds that are attainable to a very happy few who got there because of lots of postulates turned into reality.

Olska is referring to the phony concepts that, for example, can be found in "Scientology: 8-8008".
It sounds like you have read that little SCN book.

Would you like to address those issues? Or would you rather dilute them into some other version of your own?

 

[olska]

...And, magic might also be defined as "not knowing how the trick was done"

arnie lerma

I think that statement pretty much sums up what Hubbard and his scheme was about.

Even years after they are "out" people are still trying to figure out how Hubbard was able to "capture" them (they don't know how the trick was done).

I think Hubbard knew exactly how the trick was done, and from the beginning he manipulated people quite deliberately.

He tapped into people's deeply-felt frustrations and desires, gained their confidence by giving them just a little taste and tease of what would satisfy those frustrations and desires, then strung them along in some cases for years and millions of $. It was a confidence game that worked very, very well on a very small minority of the human population: the scientology "elite."

 

[olska]

Interesting post that I remember having seen on an other time in another thread.

Something similar perhaps, but not this post because I just now wrote it. Have written similar things before, on other threads.

That's true that some people do get trapped in this God-like thingy.

But tell me what's wrong in being king of your own kingdom as long as you want others to reach the same altitude.

By definition, being "king" means you are at the top "altitude" so that makes your statement of wanting others to reach "the same altitude" an oxymoron.

Do you remember about this scale of groups that at the top of it have this concept of associated terminals that is the way OTs are operating with one another.

This always rang the bell to me of these old brotherhood of knights of the round table.

I think this "scale of groups" and the term "OT" to which you refer are meaningful only to people who believe in scientology -- a small minority of the population who, if they suddenly vanished, would leave no meaningful trace on the progress or history of mankind.

And you will agree with me that some people do make a difference and have theyr postulates stick. They could be Scientologists or not.

I agree with you that some people do make a difference. For example, today I made a difference in the length of the grass on my lawn by mowing it down about 2" shorter than it was before I mowed it. That improved the appearance of the whole neighborhood a bit. Also, today I contacted someone and asked for a reference for a handyman to do some work I need done, got a name, and tomorrow I will make a difference in that person's life by throwing some work their way while making a difference in my own life and comfort and in the condition of a piece of "mest" by directing the work that is to be done.

All of which will be pretty much totally insignificant in a few years (or even perhaps as little as a few days!) time.

Look while I'm writing this I'm watching the third NBA final game. What about Coby Bryant and his fellow players? These guys are pretty good and even considered as Gods by many folks dreaming of playing along on the same grounds that are attainable to a very happy few who got there because of lots of postulates turned into reality.

The "very happy few" who play ball with Kobe Bryant and his fellows got there because of natural physical endowment, hard work, obsession, being in the right place and the right time, luck, and a host of other factors. Without denigrating their ambition, drive, persistence, hard work, and so forth I can still safely say that their "postulates" are only one small part of that.

So my friend along this kind of line do you have any failed purpose?

Sometimes it's hard to rekindle them but what effect did you want to create that got somehow smashed or squashed or invalidated or whatever make up your daylight and delight?

Sorry to disappoint you darling, but I'm not sitting here in "failed purposes" and misery, am not smashed OR squashed, or adversely affected by the occasional bits of "invalidation" that sometimes come my way.

This week I'm wrapping up preparations for an exciting new adventure and continuing to enjoy the freedom that comes with knowing that I'm not God, that I'm not responsible for the well being of the entire human race or Planet Earth, and that a hundred years from now (actually a lot less than that) no one will remember me or care who I was or what I did or didn't do.

(If you don't believe me, just watch how fast the insightful, well-thought-out, well-written, and helpful things you post on the internet get "invalidated" and forgotten.)

That's the positive side of being only one of six billion and free of all the anxiety that came with being an obsessed scientologist.

 

[Baloo]

Let me help

OK, for everyone who has a fucking misunderstood here's the skinny. Hubbard was a con man and you are stupid for believing him. Did you have a release? I know I did.