Atack: What David Mayo told me about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, and the upper levels

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
The Independents in the UK in the 1980s used to have a monthly magazine called "Reconnection", which David wrote occasional articles for. I can't remember all that much of what he said in them but in one of them he described the tribulations of having to deal with the CofS's attacks. He said that the one thing missing from the CofS's behaviour was love, compassion and politeness (etc). and that it wasn't fun dealing with a fanatical organisation which was convinced that whatever it did it was acting for the greatest good for the greatest number.

In another one, he talked of his researches into the Tech; he didn't go into much detail, but he said that we needed to be far more realistic about what was practically possible in terms of the benefits people could expect to attain.
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
Actually there were a lot of us, maybe not percentage wise, but in total numbers there were lots of us that not only concluded he went off his rocker way back when but we made the decision to be done with it.
I thought I'd watch from a safe distance by the late 70's and if facts changed I'd come back but what happened within a few years was I was so overwhelmed by mailboxes full of embarrassing Scilon promo, then my cousin became the mailman on my route and was telling relatives that I must still be into it so I had to use what my friend Keith from div 6 told me was the policy on asking off and I had to get ferocious in my insistence they cease all fucking mailings pronto.
They did for 30 yrs only to revive the mailings when they got a tip as to this being me on the message board
They even started calling me again for a while and my ex wife at her apartment.
And as I've said it was in the photos of Hubbard that went out when he was trying to imitate a film director around the time they put out "The Power of Source" that I saw that he was insane and the product he had just put out was so fucking putrid that I resolved to get out.
Of course this went hand in hand with all the times where I thought "what the fuck? Like all the times I saw that he had a tendency to talk out his ass and say things like "cancer comes from NOT smoking enough cigarettes". How man people kept up their nicotine habits because of his words only to die of cancer later?
That and the constant price increases made me realize there would be no "cleared planet" and in fact it was for the best.
By the late 70's a friend that was OT3 and L's complete said "I would like to see just one example of lasting case gain in Scientology, you need to just go live your life and forget about Scientology".
So I did.
I haven't spent much time looking back till I got active on the board which I did because I realized that my time "in" was still shaping too many of my perspectives and needed to be sorted out.
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
A prior confusion in the green vols. The LAW of ONE ain't the same as The Law of the Jungle.

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cakemaker

Patron Meritorious
It appears that all my ESMB PMs from David Mayo over a span of several years have disappeared.

Briefly, here are paraphrases of some of his messages. Now that he has passed it seems alright to make this known.

The Introspection RD as developed by Hubbard on the Flagship was tested on one crew member who was subjected to cruel and damaging interrogation and, while presented as a "Success Story" at the time, was quietly sent off the ship. Sometime later this person starved himself to death.

_______________​

During the late 1970s, Mayo wanted to remove all evaluation from the OT levels, which meant eliminating, at least, OT 2 and OT 3.

Hubbard shot down this idea.

Around 1983, Hubbard C/Sed Annie Broeker on OT 3, so it appears Hubbard was still a proponent of that level.

Many years later, Marty Rathbun - when the Xenu story was an embarrassment, and PR problem, for Independent Scientology - insisted that Hubbard had wanted to discontinue OT 3 and Miscavige had shot it down.

This was odd - and obviously insincere - as, at the time, Rathbun was still delivering OT 3 himself. So it was an attempted PR handling by Rathbun.

_____________​

According to Mayo, around 1980, when secretly meeting with Pat Broeker, Broeker excitedly handed him a copy of the "Jesus loved little boys" OT8. Mayo took it and later threw it in the trash.

Broeker also told him that Hubbard had been taking a variety of tranquilizers to see which one would be most effective. Apparently Hubbard had fits of anger and paranoia and these fits, potentially, were life threatening.

It seems that Hubbard liked writing pulp fiction (circa 1980) while buzzed on happy pills.
Aren't there backups from back before ESMB switched software?
Seems like those PM's had important historical value.
Thanks for posting what you remember.
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
I think when we look back on the time when we were in scn, we tend to downplay how much we were "true believers," and credit ourselves with more insight into scn's failings than we actually had at the time. In present time, we see that a lot of it was nuts. Looking back, we see the past from our current perspective. When we remember what we thought then, we superimpose our current thinking on that memory to some degree.

I'm reminded of Bent Corydon's statement that he was "never really a scientologist," he was just a businessman. Yet there is video of Bent in 1988 saying that when he was in scn he was a true believer. (I posted it here once, somewhere.) And from what I remember of Bent, at the time he was as sincere as anyone -- highly sincere.

Maybe when David saw the OT III materials in 1968, a suspicion (quickly suppressed) crossed his mind that Hubbard was insane, along with a desire to minimize the importance of this crazy material and steer people away from it towards the less obviously objectionable parts of scn. Years later, after having lots of time out of the repressive, Hubbard-worshipping atmosphere of CoS, David realizes that it was crazy, and when he looks back on 1968, he says "I realized then that Hubbard was insane."

I do this myself. I think, "I realized Hubbard was a con artist when I saw the Tony Hitchman interview." Well, why did I stay another 6 years, then? Actually, a suspicion crossed my mind at the time, but I quickly suppressed it and thought about the workability of the tech I was familiar with, and that's what kept me going. Now that I've completely renounced scn, I can say, "I realized then that Ron was a con artist," but at the time it was a brief and fleeting realization indeed.
Please see: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/NOTs/origins/mayo-history.html David describes this event in his own words.
This has been on the internet for over 20 years, I believe.
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
I think the insane comment was kind of a red flag thought that one ignores.

I remember a couple times I read something he wrote that seemed crazy - and I thought - he doesn't know what he's talking about. Then I put it aside and moved on. it wasn't enough to make me blow. Like the first LSD HCOB that he's coming across like he's in the know, and he's talking LSD in sugar cubes. Some one put him straight because the next HCOB was relevant. Or the one on getting protein and he recommends burgers - he had no idea of nutrition, yet he brags about how he fed these expeditions. Then, after I left Scientology, I read about the expedition to Puerto Rico and find out it was a disaster. None of that shit slowed me down in progressing up the bridge.

Mimsey
Please see: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/NOTs/origins/mayo-history.html
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
Thank you! I was really excited to read this (I've been secretly hoping David left "something" that will give those still in or UTR that final nudge to get out and dry up some of the whale money) and I usually enjoy Atacks writing but this was hard to understand. I'm glad it wasnt just me...

I still plan to take some time and go thru it again, maybe I will get a better understanding but I will be looking forward to hearing what others have to say...
While I can't comment on much of the article, I can say it isn't entirely accurate. David never worked for AAC Palo Alto. From 1986-1988 he helped establish the IRM and was its first Research Director. He was excited about evolving the tech into something better. (OT 3 had no part in it.) I'm sure there are still people out there who have the original issues from the IRM.
 

cakemaker

Patron Meritorious
Please see: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/NOTs/origins/mayo-history.html David describes this event in his own words.
This has been on the internet for over 20 years, I believe.
How wonderful to see you post here Julie!!!
First of all please accept my condolences.
I knew David briefly in the late 70's and it was a very positive experience.
Do tell us what is appropriate to ask you about and what is off the table.
And...is it Julie or Julia (as brought up in Tony Ortega's blog last week)?
I really hope you can help fill in some historical holes.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
. . .
My condolences, Julie. :rose:

I can assure you David was very much loved and admired by many of the trained
and experienced folks on this message board. I know by me especially much.

In some of my back-channel phone chats with ex-Apollo people, he was always spoken
about in the most kind and revered manner. What few posts he wrote on the message
board were of enormous help and reassurance to people trying to find their way out of
confusing life situations . . . after having spent years as true believers. He'll always
be remembered as someone very special.

Thank you for stopping by. :flowers:
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
How wonderful to see you post here Julie!!!
First of all please accept my condolences.
I knew David briefly in the late 70's and it was a very positive experience.
Do tell us what is appropriate to ask you about and what is off the table.
And...is it Julie or Julia (as brought up in Tony Ortega's blog last week)?
I really hope you can help fill in some historical holes.
Thank you for your kind words. It is nice to be amongst friends, but I probably won't be a regular poster. I think to get an accurate perspective on historical events, one should look at documents/letters/recordings as contemporaneous to the events as possible. Oral histories are always interesting and offer depth, but they are flavoured with later experiences and education. It takes more work to dig up those primary sources, but for an accurate view of history I think it is worth it. They put things into context. I think without context a whole lot of history does seem pretty crazy.
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
. . .
My condolences, Julie. :rose:

I can assure you David was very much loved and admired by many of the trained
and experienced folks on this message board. I know by me especially much.

In some of my back-channel phone chats with ex-Apollo people, he was always spoken
about in the most kind and revered manner. What few posts he wrote on the message
board were of enormous help and reassurance to people trying to find their way out of
confusing life situations . . . after having spent years as true believers. He'll always
be remembered as someone very special.

Thank you for stopping by. :flowers:
Thank you very much. I must say that both David and I were fans of Lisbeth Salander. She was very tough and very smart. Yes, David was very special and I was lucky to have been able to spend so many wonderful years with him. He never was robotic. He was a safe person to talk to. Plus he always had that wonderful Kiwi sense of humour, urge to stick up for the small guy and drive to innovate to make things better.
 

Gib

Crusader
Thank you for your kind words. It is nice to be amongst friends, but I probably won't be a regular poster. I think to get an accurate perspective on historical events, one should look at documents/letters/recordings as contemporaneous to the events as possible. Oral histories are always interesting and offer depth, but they are flavoured with later experiences and education. It takes more work to dig up those primary sources, but for an accurate view of history I think it is worth it. They put things into context. I think without context a whole lot of history does seem pretty crazy.
so do you think "no Clear, no OT" is correct?
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
Hey Jules,

I moved my reply to a PM. Too much unnecessary info for the board.

My heart goes out to you. I share in your sadness. I wish you courage.

Love, :rose:

Juanita
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I think I answered your PM. I'm still finding my way around here, its been awhile.

Love
Julie
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
so do you think "no Clear, no OT" is correct?
I've moved on from Scn. I think a lot of curious, brave souls have gotten involved in scn for all the good reasons. They were people that would dare go against social norms, in search of answers to life's most enigmatic and unanswered questions. I think some of the bravest people in the world have gotten involved. But I moved on as a great many of you have done.
 

Julie Mayo

Patron
The Independents in the UK in the 1980s used to have a monthly magazine called "Reconnection", which David wrote occasional articles for. I can't remember all that much of what he said in them but in one of them he described the tribulations of having to deal with the CofS's attacks. He said that the one thing missing from the CofS's behaviour was love, compassion and politeness (etc). and that it wasn't fun dealing with a fanatical organisation which was convinced that whatever it did it was acting for the greatest good for the greatest number.

In another one, he talked of his researches into the Tech; he didn't go into much detail, but he said that we needed to be far more realistic about what was practically possible in terms of the benefits people could expect to attain.
I think that David did go into some detail in his publications and lectures. Froom the AAC onwards through IRM and Causality I think he was very explicit in his ideas. I think he mapped the route out. But I also think his views were beneficial in their own right.
 

wigee1

Patron with Honors
I've moved on from Scn. I think a lot of curious, brave souls have gotten involved in scn for all the good reasons. They were people that would dare go against social norms, in search of answers to life's most enigmatic and unanswered questions. I think some of the bravest people in the world have gotten involved. But I moved on as a great many of you have done.
Julie, Thanks for getting on line and talking about stuff,I have nothing but admiration for you and David , I too have moved on ,
But its refreshing to have you here
Grant Frires, aka Granitt
 
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