Auditor Training after effects

guRl

Patron with Honors
I wasn't sure whether this should go to "Life After Scientology" or to "Evaluating Scientology" or to "Leaving Scientology", so I put it here, and if it's not the place for this topic, I apologize in advance.
And if this issue has already been addressed.. I apologize in advance again :biggrin:

So, recently I got to browse through different Auditor Training Level checksheets (all hail the Internetz), examining them with my never-been-in eyes.
Even though I was already well-read in the multi-layered subject of Scientology and auditing, it was nevertheless disturbing so see just how technical, robotic, and intensively indoctrinating the HCOB readings and the drills are.
I couldn't help trying to visualize a person, who for years was heavily trained and drilled to become an Auditor - what with all the different, very programmed "comm cycles" and all - and then left, to build (or rebuild) a normal life outside Scientology, having to readjust to normal communication "patterns". I thought to myself that it must be some process, to peel out layers such as "acking properly" "avoiding Q&A" etc etc. So what I wanted to ask was-
how was it for you former Auditors out there? Was it hard readjusting to the real world in these matters? Was it actually relatively easy? Does it depend on certain things? Were there certain things or people who were particularly helpful in this process? Curious guRl here would like to know :)
 

hpm1999

Patron with Honors
I can't speak to auditors (since I never was one) but this may help shed light on your inquiry- a paper showing that of the major Sociological Cults SCIOs spend less time in indoctrination but suffer more depression etc than the Sociological Cults studied.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I think you'll find as many variations of leaving the cult training as people who underwent cult training - and not only got their body out of the cult but, more importantly, how far they manage to get the cult out of their mind.

After being out a long time I realized how very very very poorly most people in scn communicate - they IRL talk yet seem to not really listen. They seem to be so busy making their point from their elevated position above all of WOGs & X's that they just don't listen.

Couple that with us SPs they cower & run from & you have people with extremely low confront.

So, it is joyful relief to not live under the rules & strictures of the cult - and when people leave & start thinking for themself ? WOW !
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
I found my auditor training very useful after I got out. The first job I got post-scn was as a telephone interviewer (doing market research, not sales). My TR's came in very handy for this. A client came to our site to listen and told my supervisor I was the best interviewer they'd ever heard. So what I'd learned actually worked in the "wog" world later on.

I listed my time in scn on the application for that telephone job too, wondering how they'd take it. I found out later they never read the applications beyond the bare essentials: name, phone number, SSN, etc.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Not difficult at all. Quite easy in fact.

You have a problem with that?
:roflmao:

The ability to "be there comfortably" has been well demonstrated.

No recognition, no awareness, that your second sentence tends, at the very least, to disprove your first sentence.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
After being out a long time I realized how very very very poorly most people in scn communicate - they IRL talk yet seem to not really listen. They seem to be so busy making their point from their elevated position above all of WOGs & X's that they just don't listen.

I'm wondering if this is just one aspect of Scientology's most basic characteristic: It tries to capture subtle and elusive things with rote formulas. So it trains people to do a lot of mechanical things for communication, like look at the speaker and acknowledge what's said. That's good as far as it goes and up to a point. But when Scn also tells people that that's all there is to great communication, it's explicitly telling them to ignore and avoid all the subtle and elusive things that communication is really about, like understanding unfamiliar ideas by thinking hard about them, or discovering someone else's point of view.

And it seems to me more and more that that's what Scientology is all about. It claims to reduce the great art of leadership and management to a formulaic 'admin tech'. It claims to reduce the profound task of learning to 'study tech'. And of course it claims to reduce spirituality to a set of talking drills.

The cargo cults were amazing in reproducing the surface appearances of modern technology. They built accurate replica airfields out of bamboo and vines, with control towers and radar dishes. They had no understanding at all of the deeper and much harder reality that had to underly that surface appearance in order to produce the miraculous effects. If you had the real machinery, then deploying it on the cargo cult pattern would certainly have worked, but the cargo cult actually did nothing to give you an airplane or radar.

I think Scientology is fundamentally a cargo cult, laying out surface patterns but blind to essential content. The appeal of Scientology is that it claims to make everything easy, or at least possible with an attainable amount of work. Mastering surface appearances may not be totally easy, but it's easier far than building the content inside, just as building a replica radar dish from bamboo takes some effort, but a hell of a lot less effort than making a real one.

Maybe Scientology sometimes seems to work because people sometimes bring in the content with them, and then when it works according to Scientology's forms, they're impressed by 'the tech'. To take another metaphor, maybe Scientology is like a scam that promises the ability to turn lead into silver. Some folks already have some old silver, but it's so tarnished they think it's just lead. Scientology scrapes off the tarnish. It's just a surface thing.

Anyway, metaphors aside, I see over-emphasis on simple routines of surface pattern as a basic theme in Scientology: cargo cult psychology.
 

guRl

Patron with Honors
Wow, Student of Trinity, that is spot on! :goodposting:
And it goes hand in hand with another, broader subject I find fascinating to explore-
how many different people, bring many different concepts and ideas and behaviors, and their distinct individuality, into the Black-and-White-Works-for-All structure of Scientology, or rather, how this very precise (albeit, contradictory) structure shapes itself on each different person.
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
I wasn't sure whether this should go to "Life After Scientology" or to "Evaluating Scientology" or to "Leaving Scientology", so I put it here, and if it's not the place for this topic, I apologize in advance.
And if this issue has already been addressed.. I apologize in advance again :biggrin:

So, recently I got to browse through different Auditor Training Level checksheets (all hail the Internetz), examining them with my never-been-in eyes.
Even though I was already well-read in the multi-layered subject of Scientology and auditing, it was nevertheless disturbing so see just how technical, robotic, and intensively indoctrinating the HCOB readings and the drills are.
I couldn't help trying to visualize a person, who for years was heavily trained and drilled to become an Auditor - what with all the different, very programmed "comm cycles" and all - and then left, to build (or rebuild) a normal life outside Scientology, having to readjust to normal communication "patterns". I thought to myself that it must be some process, to peel out layers such as "acking properly" "avoiding Q&A" etc etc. So what I wanted to ask was-
how was it for you former Auditors out there? Was it hard readjusting to the real world in these matters? Was it actually relatively easy? Does it depend on certain things? Were there certain things or people who were particularly helpful in this process? Curious guRl here would like to know :)

I think from your description that you may have been looking at GAT checksheets. I left before GAT but from what I have heard it is a nightmare of memorization and extremely robotic drilling and produces extremely robotic auditors.

I did my auditor training prior to GAT and did not find it robotic at all. I viewed it as a toolbox of things to quickly and precisely have a person locate exactly what was going on with them and spot the source and free them up from the effects of whatever it was. It did require very good and genuine communication with and care for the person in front of you.

I used the tech in the "wog" world. As Cl IV org staff, I worked part time in a very busy 7 Eleven. Every once in awhile I'd pull someone out of a full blown psychotic break (we were a block from a half way house for released mental patients) or de PTS someone standing in line trying to buy Drisdan for their flu symptoms with just one or two commands or questions. Often the results were so dramatic that customers who witnessed it or experienced it would just stand there with their jaws dropped in disbelief.

I've also had the same experience as Pineapple of working for a market research company and having someone I've surveyed go to my supervisor and tell them it was the best interview they ever had.

That's the results of using basic Scn tech (but NOT admin or ethics) and using it correctly.
 
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Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm wondering if this is just one aspect of Scientology's most basic characteristic: It tries to capture subtle and elusive things with rote formulas.

So it trains people to do a lot of mechanical things for communication, like look at the speaker and acknowledge what's said. That's good as far as it goes and up to a point. But when Scn also tells people that that's all there is to great communication, it's explicitly telling them to ignore and avoid all the subtle and elusive things that communication is really about, like understanding unfamiliar ideas by thinking hard about them, or discovering someone else's point of view.

And it seems to me more and more that that's what Scientology is all about. It claims to reduce the great art of leadership and management to a formulaic 'admin tech'. It claims to reduce the profound task of learning to 'study tech'. And of course it claims to reduce spirituality to a set of talking drills.

I agree

The problem with scientologists is that everything becomes a robotic thing. It is not you applying the formula with judgment it is simply you applying the formula. I have seen people fail with admin tech and flourish using it. The ones who flourish used it with judgment the ones who failed didn’t.

It is all in how you use the formulas there is a big difference in acknowledging someone or granting beingness and really doing it.

In a Scientology morgue every comm cycle is a “sales call” in some way, and sales people can be very fake so they pretend to ack or grant beingness or they robotically look you in the eye. But that is not the fault of the formula. It is in the way people use it.

I remember sending my friend to Scientology ( I got her out as well) and she always used to talk over people but TR’s stopped that and she communicates much better now.

I have said this many times on this board but I love study tech and I really do think the various comm courses helped me.

I agree that while Scientology does try to capture subtle and elusive things with rote formulas it is up to you to use them in rote way or not.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Maybe Scientology sometimes seems to work because people sometimes bring in the content with them, and then when it works according to Scientology's forms, they're impressed by 'the tech'. To take another metaphor, maybe Scientology is like a scam that promises the ability to turn lead into silver. Some folks already have some old silver, but it's so tarnished they think it's just lead. Scientology scrapes off the tarnish. It's just a surface thing.

There are some auditors who are easy to talk to, and unburdening some of what's deep inside can be therapeutic. As you point out, there is such a thing as native ability in an area, and it is folly to think that "standard training" can turn any idiot into an accomplished practitioner.

You see it in the regular world as well, with the idea that, by just spending "enough" money on schools, and using the latest innovations, they can turn stupid and unmotivated students into accomplished engineers and MDs.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Turning therapeutic communication into a computer program (algorithm) is very attractive, because it means it can be done with less error and is easier to propagate.

I do think that the algorithm approach is valuable, but that the Church (and many practitioners) lose track that the magic is in real, live communication with a person who CARES enough to make sure that the "product" is there, rather than worrying whether the algorithm was followed (though that can be important).

Obviously, Scientology went overboard.
 

hpm1999

Patron with Honors
Maybe Scientology sometimes seems to work because people sometimes bring in the content with them, and then when it works according to Scientology's forms, they're impressed by 'the tech'. To take another metaphor, maybe Scientology is like a scam that promises the ability to turn lead into silver. Some folks already have some old silver, but it's so tarnished they think it's just lead. Scientology scrapes off the tarnish. It's just a surface thing.

Anyway, metaphors aside, I see over-emphasis on simple routines of surface pattern as a basic theme in Scientology: cargo cult psychology.
Spot on.
 

Loohan

Am I Mettaya?
The problem with scientologists is that everything becomes a robotic thing. It is not you applying the formula with judgment it is simply you applying the formula. I have seen people fail with admin tech and flourish using it. The ones who flourish used it with judgment the ones who failed didn’t.

JUDGMENT! There's that word again. I recall hearing it ONCE in Scn, around '85.

I had audited a guy on Book & Bottle. You know where LRH says in a tape, that in objectives like Gimme That Hand, that the PC will come up with all kinds of "rational" excuses to drop the process, and you just ack and continue the objective.
Well, i took that literally. That is what i was supposed to do, right?
So this old guy in poor health that i was auditing originated that he was getting blisters walking back and forth in his leather shoes. And kept originating it. But, being a proper auditor, i did what Ron said and kept running him a long time.
He ended up with bad blisters.
I didn't get crammed for that, because i did the right thing like LRH sez.
But a Cl IV auditor verbally berated me for not using JUDGMENT.

I didn't ask him for the reference on that verbal data, though. Probably isn't one.
(I had major throat chakra issues that i didn't resolve until years after i left the cult, so i often did not speak in a timely manner.)
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Honestly, it was hell. My son experienced the same thing. Part of it might have been we were in TTC, which meant we were training full-time. I think worse than the content was applying 'study tech' for 12 hours a day. Think a stray thought, get restless, and you were nailed to find your misunderstood words. The aim was to become a receptacle for the tech.

I remember doing demos when I didn't need to do so in order to break the monotony because I was probably going to display "misunderstood phenomena". I'd also pretend to look up words when I didn't have an mu just because I needed a freaking break.

Maybe it's different for those who didn't train full-time or weren't in the org all of their lives. When I came out, I felt like a mutant. I'd spent the last years with folks who only spoke in thought-stopping phrases. I was very weird and socially awkward. Plus I was just a freak because I was so used to people yelling at me all the time that I was really not expecting anyone to be nice. Ew. Yep. Hard transition for me.

My son and I were talking a bit about this last night actually. I don't like to broadcast what others share, but he's definitely also had some difficulties.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
JUDGMENT! There's that word again. I recall hearing it ONCE in Scn, around '85.

I had audited a guy on Book & Bottle. You know where LRH says in a tape, that in objectives like Gimme That Hand, that the PC will come up with all kinds of "rational" excuses to drop the process, and you just ack and continue the objective.
Well, i took that literally. That is what i was supposed to do, right?
So this old guy in poor health that i was auditing originated that he was getting blisters walking back and forth in his leather shoes. And kept originating it. But, being a proper auditor, i did what Ron said and kept running him a long time.
He ended up with bad blisters.
I didn't get crammed for that, because i did the right thing like LRH sez.
But a Cl IV auditor verbally berated me for not using JUDGMENT.

I didn't ask him for the reference on that verbal data, though. Probably isn't one.
(I had major throat chakra issues that i didn't resolve until years after i left the cult, so i often did not speak in a timely manner.)

I actually recall something about distinguishing between an attempt to blow, versus a legitimate Present Time Problem that is interfering with the PC being in session. You're supposed to HANDLE the PTP, and then continue the session.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
There are some auditors who are easy to talk to, and unburdening some of what's deep inside can be therapeutic. As you point out, there is such a thing as native ability in an area, and it is folly to think that "standard training" can turn any idiot into an accomplished practitioner.

You see it in the regular world as well, with the idea that, by just spending "enough" money on schools, and using the latest innovations, they can turn stupid and unmotivated students into accomplished engineers and MDs.

Scn in fact tries to turn any idiot into an accomplished practitioner. A noble effort, and I'm not sure
how well it succeeds.

LRH said good trs are as "natural as the falling rain." I see this as somewhat like zen archery.
You dilligently practice and drill those things you need to and then sometime along the way you
just do it right without thinking about the rules.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm wondering if this is just one aspect of Scientology's most basic characteristic: It tries to capture subtle and elusive things with rote formulas. So it trains people to do a lot of mechanical things for communication, like look at the speaker and acknowledge what's said. That's good as far as it goes and up to a point. But when Scn also tells people that that's all there is to great communication, it's explicitly telling them to ignore and avoid all the subtle and elusive things that communication is really about, like understanding unfamiliar ideas by thinking hard about them, or discovering someone else's point of view.

And it seems to me more and more that that's what Scientology is all about. It claims to reduce the great art of leadership and management to a formulaic 'admin tech'. It claims to reduce the profound task of learning to 'study tech'. And of course it claims to reduce spirituality to a set of talking drills.

The cargo cults were amazing in reproducing the surface appearances of modern technology. They built accurate replica airfields out of bamboo and vines, with control towers and radar dishes. They had no understanding at all of the deeper and much harder reality that had to underly that surface appearance in order to produce the miraculous effects. If you had the real machinery, then deploying it on the cargo cult pattern would certainly have worked, but the cargo cult actually did nothing to give you an airplane or radar.

I think Scientology is fundamentally a cargo cult, laying out surface patterns but blind to essential content. The appeal of Scientology is that it claims to make everything easy, or at least possible with an attainable amount of work. Mastering surface appearances may not be totally easy, but it's easier far than building the content inside, just as building a replica radar dish from bamboo takes some effort, but a hell of a lot less effort than making a real one.

Maybe Scientology sometimes seems to work because people sometimes bring in the content with them, and then when it works according to Scientology's forms, they're impressed by 'the tech'. To take another metaphor, maybe Scientology is like a scam that promises the ability to turn lead into silver. Some folks already have some old silver, but it's so tarnished they think it's just lead. Scientology scrapes off the tarnish. It's just a surface thing.

Anyway, metaphors aside, I see over-emphasis on simple routines of surface pattern as a basic theme in Scientology: cargo cult psychology.


There is an aspect to this that you are missing. Every person, as a child, gets taught various things and gets taught acceptable ways of doing them. At least it used to be that way; these days it is less in evidence among young people.

It is called "Manners". You know there is a school in Johannesburg called King Edward's, and when young kids go there they spend the ENTIRE first week learning nothing other than good manners. These get drilled and practiced - how and when to say good morning, an thank you sir (or Ma'am). How to dress NEATLY. How to walk in line. etc etc etc. How to eat your lunch. How to use the toilet. Everything. Every aspect of good manners gets drilled into them.

Now is this brainwashing? Of course it is. Does it violate their self-determinism? Yes indeed.

One need only compare them to the hooligans that come out of the Rudolf Steiner system where everything is a free-for-all with never ANY "violation" of the child's "natural free spirit" to see the difference. These kids are "self-determined".

(pause while I puke)

Or "bank-determined".

The reason why trained auditors do better in life than they would have prior to their training is that they have learned to be comfortably in command of their communication lines. It is as simple as that. One need look no further.

When I left the Org back in '83 or '84 this is the single thing that opened all doors for me. And it has stayed with me ever since. I saw it again just a few days ago where I found myself among a group of people who were all strangers to each other. I saw them all sitting in their own heads isolated from others. I started a up some communication one guy and then another and soon the others joined in and a good time was had by all.

Thanks to my auditor training.

So all of your hoped for hidden robotic mannerisms is just wishful thinking and belong in the garbage bin.
 

Loohan

Am I Mettaya?
When I came out, I felt like a mutant. I'd spent the last years with folks who only spoke in thought-stopping phrases. I was very weird and socially awkward.

Boy, yeah, was i ever weird and socially awkward after i got out. And depressed. Of course, what with undiagnosed Asperger and unsuspected zillions of demons persecuting me, i was weird and socially awkward when i joined. But one would think that after 8 years of Scn including years of auditor training, not to mention 8 years of ordinary chronological maturing process, i would have been more poised, suave and debonair (like my present self:yes:).
Well, i was slightly less shy, but still totally lost and ill-at-ease in any social situation.
 
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