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Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by mockingbird, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    This thread is to go back to an idea that is a fundamental to understand what Dianetics and Scientology are and how they function.

    This comes up in auditing and training and in many other forms and aspects of all LRH tech .

    First despite me repeatedly defining my terms extensively some individuals try to brush aside EVERYTHING I write by saying " he doesn't even define hypnosis... " and go off with the logical fallacy express train to " Scientological logic ".

    Well let's derail that train right now . I gave a brief list of fallacies in PISSED , IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT !

    I will recap a short incomplete list of fallacies that I do not want used in addressing me or my posts in the future!!

    If you don't know them by heart you can use your computer to look up the definitions !! :angry:

    I am talking to YOU Scientologists who " Know all about logic " BUT never learned anything non-LRH about the subject ! :duh:

    Bluntly , IF you only studied LRH you never even got a proper introduction on how to debate rationally.

    I would prefer if I and my work was not addressed using : personal incredulity , black and white thinking , magical thinking , the Texas sharpshooter fallacy (aka apophenia ), Ad Hominem , no true Scotsman , appeal to authority , (your own or LRH ) , begging the question , burden of proof , ambiguity , bandwagon , anecdotal and tu quoque .

    I also am not looking for an endless torrent of vague " Oh , you don't understand that intention matters..." or " DM changed stuff and stuff ... " , or similar ideas.

    If somebody's buying that it ain't my ass .

    I want to go in a specific and different direction.

    First I want to bring up one of the most basic and to me truest ideas about hypnosis: HOW to cause it.

    First I'll use a basic definition :
    noun: hypnosis

    • the induction of a state of consciousness in which a person apparently loses the power of voluntary action and is highly responsive to suggestion or direction. Its use in therapy, typically to recover suppressed memories or to allow modification of behavior by suggestion, has been revived but is still controversial.
      • the state of consciousness produced by hypnosis.

        Okay , that's from Google and seems simple enough. Induction just means causes , in the case of hypnosis.

        It's this state and has very , very little to do with will , intention or anything like that .

        THOSE ideas are distractions and have so little bearing on this that you should just say they , if they exist at all , do so in other contexts of analyzing thought.

        Now causing hypnotic states does not require willingness , cooperation or even ANY understanding of what hypnosis is.

        I cannot state that strongly enough. It also does not require enormous charisma or personal power or charm.

        Those things CAN help in some situations but are not mandatory.

        Altitude , or transference can help TREMENDOUSLY in some cases and applications BUT also are not always needed.

        Okay , now stage hypnotism , while containing SOME small element of the subject actually MISINFORMS far more than it informs.

        As does absurd fictions about telepathy and mystics using " overpowering will " , " the force of the mind " and other fictitious nonsense.

        They make people THINK they know what it is and NOT KNOW that they don't know !

        If they knew they were ignorant it would be easier to both teach them AND show that it is worth learning about !

        Okay , now to start. The most basic methods to induce ( cause ) hypnosis are confusion , repetition , mimicry and fixation .

        Some theories see all these methods as affecting the flow of ATTENTION and it's following and being put onto or off PATTERNS of information.

        I tend to agree , to a certain extent with those ideas.

        BUT I cannot stress strongly enough that the shutting down or off of the critical factor ( which I extensively discuss in it's own thread ) is paramount to understanding the EFFECT of ANY hypnosis.

        Now for confusion , probably LRH's true love in tech and his own mind:

        I will start with a quote from Mark Tyrrell at the website Uncommon Knowledge:

        Using confusion for hypnosis may sound like a strange idea – even a confusing one! But the notion of pur-posefully and knowingly using confu-sion as a tool to elicit hypnotic re-sponses from the unconscious mind has a good pedigree.

        No less an authority then Dr Milton Erickson, perhaps the greatest hypnotist who ever lived, believed that few things could capture the attention so well as confusion. And he was right. Think about it for a moment.

        If someone whose opinion you respect usually makes sense when they’re talking, then you’ll pay attention to them.

        When on occasion they seem to be saying something important to you, but the meaning isn’t immediately clear, you’ll assume you need to pay more attention in order to grasp what they are saying.

        And if a point is not logically clear, you’ll focus more and more of your at-tention in the hope of understanding it eventually. And remember, focusing the attention is a key component of hypnosis.

        We are all dependent on our ability to decipher meaning from what happens to us and from what people say. When people are confused, their awareness turns inwards in a search for understanding – or escape.

        It’s ironic in a way that so many people work on their communication in an attempt to make it more clear, yet the best hypnotists work on making (at least some of) their communication more confusing.

        If you look at people when they are confused, you’ll see they are highly focused. And strong focus is akin to hypnotic trance. When you can’t quite figure something out, but it seems really important that you do figure it out, you have an activated expectation.

        Focus and expectation are at the heart of the confusional technique.

        But why should being confused make you more suggestible?

        Being confused is like drowning in a sea of communication. You will grab onto anything that will keep you afloat.

        Any words or phrases that you can make sense of in the maelstrom are likely to affect you more strongly than usual – so if these words can be inter-preted as suggestions, this is probably how you will respond to them.

        This is a rule of human nature. If something is scarce we value it more highly and when we get it, we grab hold of it and we use it. When water is scarce it becomes more valuable to us and we don’t waste a drop when we get it.

        It’s the same with clear meaning if it sud-denly becomes scarce. Consider the confusion elicited when a stage show hypnotist tips back a subject unexpectedly.

        Confusion is followed by clarity when the unequivocal command to ‘sleep’ is uttered.

        We like puzzles and riddles because we expect clarity to eventually emerge from the confusion. People watch and read mystery thrillers for the same reason.

        This confusion as entertainment is an excellent tool for locking people’s attention.

        Okay , That is from a regular old hypnotist ; who does not have my experiences as a Scientologist OR my status as a critic.

        Simple enough right ? Things that confuse CAN cause hypnosis , vague statements , unclear commands and many other things we'll go into soon .

        Next up is repetition , probably LRH's OTHER great love in both tech and his own mind : I will once again quote a plain old hypnotist : this time Adam Easton from the online article entitled - Using repetition in Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy : If you look back through history, you will see that repetition has been associated with hypnosis.

        You are sure to have seen those swinging pendulums and rotating wheels that get used, not to mention the enjoyable repetitive quality of the ocean waves coming in to shore.

        I love to hear that sound, it is one of the reasons I love to live beside the sea.

        Some of the more classical hypnotists use expressions such as “you are going deeper, deeper and deeper into hypnosis” when taking people into hypnosis. This is repetitive, though can sometimes be a bit boring.

        The good hypnotist can use words repetitively to induce a relaxed and focused hypnotic state, though ideally giving the same message in a variety of ways is the way to make this principle most effective.

        You see, when you use certain words in a repetitive fashion, they can have the same effects as that pendulum swinging in front of the eyes or the rotating wheel. The repetition tends to hypnotically focus the prospect on your communication. It holds their attention very effectively.

        Okay , this is a very , very basic definition that I hope everyone can accept .

        LRH used repetition SO much and SO often in Scientology some would say IT is the basis of the technology !

        I will not go QUITE that far , but they are not all wrong either , he has you re-re-re-redo and study the same things OVER and over and over for decades thousands and thousands of times !

        I consider a huge clue now to look at as - what he has you do over and over , what you are doing and the effects that it causes !

        He does not WASTE his SLAVES time ! It is HIS and too valuable to spend doing ANYTHING that does not benefit him , EVER !

        Okay , now to mimicry ( I NEVER recommend covert hypnosis and consider it immoral and a violation of human rights : This info is ONLY for educational purposes ) : From Orik and the site Hypnosis Black Secrets:

        [h=1]Covert Hypnosis – Mimicry[/h]
        One of the building blocks of successful covert or conversational hypnosis is mimicry. However, this term can create a lot of confusion.

        Are you supposed to completely mirror your subject, copying their every move? Of course not. On the other hand, how do you determine which actions to mimic and which to ignore?

        While nothing about conversational hypnosis( note : conversational means covert as in without the subject's knowledge or consent ) is an exact science, there are some general guidelines you can follow in order to properly use mimicry. Here, we’ll give you a review of what and how often to mimic, and when to back off.

        [h=2]Why Mimic?[/h]
        Mimicry is important to conversational hypnosis because it is a subconscious rapport-builder. While our conscious minds don’t pick up on these subtle movements, our subconscious minds do.

        Since we are ‘wired’ to automatically trust and like people who are like ourselves, we begin to like people who mimic our actions without ever knowing why.

        Obviously, there is a very fine line between masterful mimicry and playing a creepy version of the mirror game we all enjoyed as kids.

        Nobody wants to be copied – the overall impression is strange, vaguely threatening and the precise opposite of what you’re trying to attain through conversational hypnosis.

        [h=2]When to Mimic[/h]
        You can slip in a simple mimicry anytime during your conversational hypnosis attempts, whether your subject is across the room or sitting right next to you. For example, if you’re trying to catch the eye of an attractive girl on the other side of the dance floor, pay attention to how she’s standing.

        Is her arm resting on a table? Are her legs crossed? This would be a great time to begin sending her subconscious some cues. Subtly arrange your limbs into a pose that mimics hers, and her subconscious mind will register the similarity next time she glances your way.

        If your ‘target’ is already close to you, you’re in a much more convenient position for mimicry. With a close eye on subtly, pay attention to how she holds her body and what she’s doing with her hands.

        Try to mimic one out of every five movements at the very most – any more than this will appear obvious and strange.

        [h=2]What to Mimic[/h]
        The most successful mimicry occurs with motions that are universal. In other words, don’t try to copy your dream girl’s dance moves – copy her unconscious, common motions instead.

        Sipping a drink is a wonderful and time-honored occasion for mimicry. When she takes a sip, take on of your own. You can also cross or uncross your legs at the same time, lean an elbow on the bar when she does so, or run your fingers back through your hair a few seconds after she makes this movement (use caution if your hair is rock-hard with gel!)

        As you can see, the subtle art of mimicry is just that – an art. Don’t be surprised if you’re not a natural at this. Most people require plenty of practice before they go out into the real world and have success.

        If you can, find a willing friend or family member and have them help you. Without telling them, try to follow the guidelines you just learned through a full conversation.

        At the end, ask them if they were aware of your mimicry, and adjust your art based on their observations. Don’t worry if it takes you a while to become proficient – even the most accomplished masters had to start somewhere!

        Well , aside from the impression that Orik is a sleazeball , I want you to get a basic idea of what mimicry is.

        So far so good ; next up is fixation . Next I have a quote from an article by the late Jolly West .

        Now , admittedly he IS seen as an opponent of Scientology , BUT his article states what is needed briefly and clearly : It is from the Encyclopedia Brittanica article Hallucination.

        Prolonged monotony or fixation of attention may lead to diminished responsiveness to the environment with a general effect similar to that of absolute reduction of stimulation or of hypnotic trance.

        Under these conditions such dissociative phenomena as “highway hypnosis” among drivers of motor vehicles may occur. Similar phenomena that occur among aviators have been called fascination or fixation.

        During prolonged, monotonous flight, pilots may experience visual, auditory, and bodily (kinesthetic) hallucinations; for example, a pilot may suddenly feel that the plane is in a spin or a dive or that it is upside down, even though it is flying level.

        A kinesthetic hallucination such as this can be so vivid that the pilot will attempt “corrective” maneuvering of the aircraft, with potentially tragic results.

        See , the basic idea is that SOMEHOW one's attention is FIXED monotonously on something , or INTENSELY concentrated in some cases and methods.

        I hope that is all simple and easy to understand. If it is not you can get LOTS of examples by googling the methods or look up tons of videos on youtube.

        Obviously the accuracy and quality of the videos will vary greatly.

        Okay when you have those ideas firmly in your grasp we can move onto VARIATIONS .

        ALL these methods have MANY different forms and you should learn A LOT about ALL of them to understand LRH tech.

        Sorry , it can seem like a huge pain in the ass BUT it is HUNDREDS of times quicker and easier to " learn " than Scientology !

        I can bet you that all day every day ! AND it is actually TRUE info about you and your mind !

        First up confusion : this has as many variations as there are ways to confuse or become confused !

        That is a lot , but we can break it up into BROAD categories that pertain to Scientology , and hopefully chop this monster down to size.

        Now it is also known as paradox or contradiction for good reason : if something seems pardoxical or to contradict itself in a way you can not quite figure out or get right then that is CONFUSION .

        I once read an interview with a class XII auditor who remarked that LRH's writings can appear " paradoxical and contrary " to people !

        See , she studied IT ALL and bought into the idea that buried in that HYPNOTIC , ATTENTION HOLDING mess was some DEEP profound wisdom - just UNDER the surface needing an insightful mind to plumb the depths !

        I will let you in on a little secret ...confidentially...HE FUCKING FOOLED HER !!

        Yeah , I am sure , yeah sucks to be her and waste fifteen or so years studying and slaving for him , BUT that does not change the FACTS as I see them in the slightest .

        See , data or info comes in PATTERNS and when it comes from a trusted source we expect it to align or agree , far more often than not with old or similar patterns or ESPECIALLY data from the exact same source !

        When it does not agree we can be confused , and try to grab onto data to REALIGN our confused mind.

        WE want uncertainty and doubt to go away, by our nature .

        It is a weakness that LRH was only too happy to magnify and exploit MERCILESSLY.

        He gave patterns that very frequently contradicted one another BUT - BRILLIANTLY had many of the contradictions SPREAD OUT to not make it too obvious , Scientology is often spread out over decades , so you don't easily see that terms and concepts get redefined to be quite different and in fact at times the exact OPPOSITE !

        He claimed this was due to high level research and other BS , but it was INTENTIONAL from the start !

        Alright , another variation on the confusion method that LRH had so deeply ingrained as to be first nature was the offensive defensive technique .

        I have covered it in other threads but cannot overstate that to understand LRH or his tech you must understand that he was COMPELLED by his nature as a megalomaniacal , narcissistic pathological liar to think , write and speak in this technique WHENEVER possible. PERIOD . case closed.

        Of course he pioneered confusion in indoctination as he has a student CONFUSE their own mind with contradictory info , as they can understand what they read - BUT convince THEMSELF they must have MUs , as he taught them the " phenomena ALWAYS show" ! When really they are the symptoms of hypnosis and the STRESS of forced covert cognitive restructuring !

        Plainly it fucks up your mind to have it broken down and rebuilt without your knowledge or consent !

        So , when you sense or display signs from a subconscious level - he had to come up with excuses - and so the barriers to study were born !

        The names are just anything YOU could believe sounded studious , the PHENOMENA and more importantly YOUR new beliefs and behavior when encountering them are the key to understanding Scientology " Study Technology " !

        YOU become a self-hypnotizer ! Doing HIS work for him , like a good slave .

        He divides your mind against itself by misinforming you about its nature AND how to " help " , er CONFUSE it.

        He started this pattern with Dianetics were he divided your conscious and subconscious , which should be ALLIES and work TOGETHER into the fictitious analytical and horrifying reactive minds which are locked in a death match !

        In Scientology the match is extended over eternity for the entire universe and EVERY one of countless beings everlasting salvation or damnation quite literally !

        Nice guy , huh ?

        Okay , now repetition in Scientology takes many forms and is almost constant once you walk in the door .

        From the loaded language that is bolstered by repetition in indoctrination , BUT far more importantly the very thoughts of a Scientologist.

        This is one of the most important points in cult recovery : Thinking in the cult jargon and the redefined earlier terms and concepts in cult terms is one of the VERY STRONGEST and longest lasting methods of holding the person's mind captive.

        You MUST , MUST , MUST by any ethical , honest , lawful means possible get youself or any other cult member to STOP thinking in and using the doctrine or you will most likely be severely limited in the progress you make , if you can make any at all. There may appear to be a very rare exception BUT this pattern is one of the truest possible in my estimation.

        It appears in many , many other ways as slogans and key policies are quoted and re-quoted as thought stopping cliches ( as beautifully defined by the brilliant Robert J Lifton ) and in KSW , which , like any " good Scientologist " I learned VERBATIM , many years ago as well as virtually the whole Intro to Scientology Ethics and probably nearly as well another few dozen key references that are force fed down Scientologist's throats , over and over.

        Key ones are fed to different posts , reinforcing LRH's mad dystopian caste system of slaves COVERTLY.

        But , I could literally go on for hours with examples of repetition in Scientology : if you have spent more than a little time in YOU can think of and write a list of HUNDREDS of applications.

        You might do so just as a way to examine what was done to you ; and what it resulted in.

        Don't go too far as it could upset you if you focus on it too much.

        The point is to EDUCATE - NOT be a substitute for any needed help of another kind.

        Okay , ALMOST DONE.

        Next is mimicry , mimicry is almost omnipresent , in Scientology BUT is very subtle as you must understand the new body language ( or lack thereof ) of many Scientologists is mimicked by each other putting on subtle SOCIAL pressure to conform and be like the people around you.

        This also makes it HARDER to fit in regular wog society as you don't have normal physical cues to communicate important subtle hints and meanings and often don't properly interpret them any more over time.

        That is GREAT news for LRH ; it helps him ISOLATE and control you more and more and you don't even see it !

        There is mimicry in the course room as students do what the others do , to fit in- at first unsure WHY they do and say these things BUT knowing they will be accepted and approved IF they do !

        And soon their thoughts and feelings work to line up with the new behavior ! Further helping the cult indoctrination !
        The auditor shows the pc mimicry in many processes and the students use it in TRs , if you think about it you can probably think of many other places and situations YOU just COOPERATED .

        This helps train you to control bodies and be controlled - like a good obedient slave .

        Now for the last and some schools define as ONLY method of hypnosis with all others being methods of causing it.

        Attention fixation can include putting it on something or an idea or thought INTENSELY , like in auditing with dozens , if not HUNDREDS of ways of focusing attention on all kinds of incidents and objects and the room etc . etc.

        Your attention is also fixed or DIVIDED many times in study , as you focus on so many barriers and phenomena to spot and coordinate AND you are trying to NEVER fail a spot check and retain enough to pass a drill or exam or internship.

        Your attention is SO spread out you can take a simple shotcut to enhance FOCUS : just shut off the critical factor and hypnotically intake what you study.

        What could be the harm ; by this point a student " knows " LRH would not steer them wrong and figured it all out for them.

        No need for that pesky doubt, wondering , examining and independent thought.

        No real Scientologist has room or time for that garbage anyway . OOPS !

        See , he figured out that misdirection and information overload and many other treats he gave you as a student , pc , etc. etc. make you suggestible , gullible and control-able.

        Really these appear in virtually ALL the cult environment , including away from the org when around other cult members virtually constantly once you've been thoroughly indoctrinated.

        Your attention , and thereby your mind is controlled - often constantly or nearly so - until death .

        This is the most extreme and worst case scenario , but I do not believe it is rare for long , long term Scientologists.

        Statistically as you are in more deeply for more years and decades your chance of this grows exponentially - from quite small in the first weeks to higher in months and much higher as years stretch into a lifetime.

        I wish it was not this way for all those still trapped and yet to be trapped BUT I see no other way it even could be.

        I hope this is informative on hypnosis at a very low level , and that it sheds light on how it is used in Scientology.

        I will close with another quote with several informative definitions of hypnosis from the online article ; Hypnotic Advancements by Dr Frank Valente:

        In Krasner’s “The Wizard Within”, pg. 2, 1999, he states:
        “I believe hypnosis to be a process which produces relaxation, distraction of the conscious mind, heightened suggestibility, and increased awareness, allowing access to the subconscious mind through the imagination. It also produces the ability to experience thoughts and images as real.”

        In Ormond McGill’s, “The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism”, pg. 12, 1996, one finds:
        “Basically, hypnosis can be regarded as a state of mind produced by the transference from one level of consciousness to another; a state with capacities for mental activities distinctly its own directly keyed to the automatic nervous system rather than the sympathetic (central nervous system) productive of the state of mind of somnambulism, i.e. subconscious behavior.”

        And we couldn’t possibly leave out Dave Elman’s, “Hypnotherapy”, pg. 26, 1964:
        Hypnosis is a state of mind in which the critical faculty of the human is bypassed, and selective thinking established.” Continuing that, “the critical faculty of your mind is that part which passes judgment.”
        Personally I must add that I far prefer Topher Morrison’s (Instructor for the Accelerated Hypnotherapy Certification Weekend Seminar put on by APU) interpretation of the critical faculty as “the part of you that cares to distinguish between reality and fantasy.”

        In Stephen Gilligan’s “Therapeutic Trances” he states:
        Hypnosis is conceptualized as an experientially absorbing interactional sequence that produces an altered state of consciousness wherein self-expressions begin to happen automatically, without conscious mediation." (Gilligan, Stephen, G., 1987)
        And finally from our dearly beloved Dr. Milton H. Erickson
        In “The Collected Papers of Milton H. Erickson, Volume I" page 113, Dr. Erickson is quoted as stating:
        “The hypnotic state is an experience that belongs to the subject, derives from the subject’s own accumulated learning's and memories, not necessarily consciously recognized, but possible of manifestations in a special state of non waking awareness”. And one of my favorite explanations can be found within The Collected Papers of Milton H. Erickson, Volume IV of the same series, page 224, “It is a state of consciousness – not unconsciousness or sleep – a state of consciousness or awareness in which there is a marked receptiveness to ideas and understandings and an increased willingness to respond either positively or negatively to those ideas. It derives from processes and functioning within the subject. And is not some mystical procedure, but rather a systematic utilization of experiential learning's– that is, the extensive learning's acquired through the process of living itself.”


    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  2. gbuck

    gbuck oxymoron


    Impressive, accurate, correct and not as daunting as it first appeared.
    Confusion is, you're absolutely and fundamentally correct in stating, the entry point to someone's consciousness.
    We flee from confusion to apparent ( or any ) alternative.
    Your mention of self-hypnosis is bang on in my experience.
    The whole auditing process morphs into this state and vgi's which is euphoria.
    Bringing the tech to mind is also a form of self-hypnosis.
    Real meditation, although the definition is not the state, has no centre and doesn't involve fixated attention, so is the polar opposite ( in verbal terms ) of hypnosis.
    It's the 'viewpoint' that supplies the conditions for hypnosis to take root.
    Revealing stuff Mockingbird.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  3. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron


    That was an exceptional overview

    I will demonstrate how much I liked it shortly...


    edit: This post has been webbed LINK
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  4. eldritch cuckoo

    eldritch cuckoo brainslugged reptilian



    I may add a vew book recommendations...

    Title: "Wort Weaving - The Science of Suggestion" (Volume 1, 2)
    Author: Trevor Silvester
    Publisher: "The Quest Institute"
    Pages: 179

    Short characterization: It is a book that is, all in all, aiming at becoming hypnotherapists. It almost exclusively deals with shaping and personalizing (choosing, modifying) suggestions, the inductive ones as well as the ones about the therapeutical "content". It deals with all the involved verbal mechanisms: confusion, embedded command, (suggestion of) mind reading, negative suggestion, lost performative, a.s.o.. Of the several books about clinical hypnosis I have, this was by far the best one. (But I could not yet buy any of the highlights recommended around here, and several historical ones for download I'm still reading, so these are excluded... :unsure: ) In restrospective (after having read these forums, the bunker,...) especially this one is interesting for understanding Hubbard's choice of language, but certainly not only for that. :coolwink: :biggrin:

    Note: for a non-native-speaker, this book may be a "tough read", due to all the grammatical variations, intended "unclarities", and metaphors.

    One more:

    Title: "Handbook of Hypnosis Inductions"
    Author: George Gafner & Sonja Benson
    Publisher: "Norton"
    Pages: 170

    This one, also for therapists, deals with all kinds of (verbal) inductions and the subsequent deepening, from various versions of "telling a confusing story" to provoking certain imaginative pictures or rather "instructive" inductions.
  5. xenusdad

    xenusdad Patron with Honors

    Another excellent article by Mockingbird, exposing the con for those who dare to walk in the light of knowledge. You Sir, are an asset to our 'Ex' community and it is a pleasure and privilege to read your posts. It's like having another Arnie on board! :coolwink:
  6. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Xenusdad , there is only one Arnie .

    I have only left the cult since March 2014 and started looking outside it in January 2014.

    I have just barely started my research and will likely never live to catch up to Arnie !

    He's probably ahead of me by at least two hundred to one in terms of research time !

    Not to mention his huge volume of materials !

    To me Arnie and Jon Atack are the foremost experts and are likely to NEVER be matched or exceeded EVER .

    I have the goal of exposing the cult and con in the easiest to understand and truest manner I can - so as to help free the victims and educate their families and the general public.

    P.s. thanks to Arnie for posting this on ; I want as many people as possible to get the info .
  7. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Hubbard himself would agree with you on this point, at least partially. :yes:

  8. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well Type4PTS , I have used that very quote ( that Jon Atack used at the underground bunker ) in an earlier thread on study tech.

    See LRH was driven to use the offensive defensive technique - warning about hypnotists and con-men and enslavers and then doing just what he warned against.

    He did a variation on it you could call the frenemy version . He gave true enough info BUT left out other important info .

    In this case he has by the date of this quote found dozens of OTHER methods of covert manipulation and hypnosis besides the ones he warns of .

    He went through a period of warning about implanting with CERTAIN methods and then when he got your trust used OTHERS !

    A great bait and switch ! AND in his audacity he makes your trust into the altitude he warned of ! He actually is planting a suggestion OF suggestibility !

    He repeats this THOUSANDS of times , CONDITIONING Scientologists to believe their minds are VERY vulnerable to manipulation and then voila HE manipulates them !

    Fulfilling the expectation HE created ! Many definitions of hypnosis include expectation such as : expectation + belief = hypnosis .

    Now I personally don't completely reject that but find it grossly oversimplified . Especially regarding the manipulation and changes of the mind in hypnotic states.

    In fact he warns many , many times of vulnerability to persuasion and man's inability to perceive or resist external control !

    This repetitive warning is actually a method of creating vulnerability ! Very cleverly hidden ! Thanks LRH , just what I needed .

    He was very good at giving a sliver of truth and hiding a mountain of lies. The implication if he warned partially about something is that there is nothing else to learn , and you how feel educated when you have partial or false info and think you have the truth .

    Before he warns you you might have been able to realize you need to learn about this - and consulted other sources ! That could expose him and so had to be safeguarded against by any means necessary .

    That is the reason for the tone scale and disposing of enemies quietly and without sorrow and disconnection and fair game .

    ONLY through cutting off exposure of the con could he control the information Scientologists got and thereby control their MINDS.

    HE always based his ideas on the Art of War and the Prince by Machiavelli .

    “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    “Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
    Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    See he gave what people expected - the bait and he defeated his enemies with no battle - by enslaving their very minds.

    He controlled people into predictable patterns and occupied their minds with thousands of misdirections , lies , false hopes etc. and confusions to soften them up and then struck with the unanticipated - hypnotic mind control .

    I certainly did not see that coming . OR as even POSSIBLE .

    Some will NEVER see the mind control or have a clue how it works BUT viciously deny it and claim it was just a scam or due to lack of critical thinking .

    Well the EXTREME lack found almost universally in Scientology is much more easily explained by the lowering of the critical factor in hypnosis than by just saying ALL these people were EXACTLY the same super high degree of trusting and gullible by pure luck !

    It just does not fit the behavior or probability ; not to mention that many Scientologists don't have blind trust in OTHER areas of their lives.

    It is an induced trust .
  9. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    "If you wait by the river long enough you may see your enemy's body float by"
    Russian Proverb
  10. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I've not been on ESMB much in recent months and have been only able to read a tiny percentage of posts, and that is a thread I've not read as yet.

    I believe though that you've got some real insight as far as what was done to us and how it was done, so I'll be reading all your postings when I can. :yes:
  11. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I am going to go into confusion and what it means as far as persuasion a little more as it is one of the very most important things to understand regarding Scientology.

    Confusion can be understood by thinking of the mind as directing attention in patterns .

    Most of our thinking , especially conscious thinking involves mental shortcuts.

    We perceive by any of several methods that something is very much like something from before or that we anticipate and see or hear or feel or think of it as that.

    We see part of something behind a fence and by memory or anticipation calculate subtly that it " is " a dog or tire or car without REALLY seeing it very well.

    We hear a sound and at work think it is a machine or at home the TV or in a store a piece of equipment . IT can be the SAME sound or faint BUT our minds fill in blanks as a shortcut.

    This creates a natural vulnerability in thinking which ALSO uses patterns and shortcuts to reach CONCLUSIONS .

    It is natural and you could not stop and thoroughly investigate EVERY bit of information and idea you EVER get .

    You would starve or die of thirst or be killed by other threats ( including people )that require ACTION .

    We are built to make assumptions . There is no way around it. That creates mental weaknesses that can be exploited .

    With a link I will show a simple example .

    That is taking advantage of an assumption to control and fool some one . It is brief BUT illustrates my point.

    If someone is confused they are MUCH easier to manipulate . That is at the heart of Scientology .

    If they are confused well enough long enough they are in fact HYPNOTIZED and will desperately seek an end or relief to the confusion.

    I will repost a basic pair of LRH quotes on this.

    Quotes from L Ron Hubbard on the Confusion Technique:
  12. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I should mention the confusion is built into most of the major points of Scientology and Dianetics starting with the Reactive and Analytical minds.

    Both are fictitious and the very education about them can create neurosis in people as they fear aspects of themselves that did not exist until the suggestion by LRH .

    This suggestion is compounded with repetition many times over and it is confusing to make many false evaluations about yourself.

    It creates internal conflict and masks issues you could otherwise perceive and address .

    This can create a snowball effect that of course by being created by suggestion can be resolved by suggestion making " gains " as you think you escape the Reactive Mind - which is really just the SUGGESTION of a Reactive Mind !

    You think you are clear and can think and see without the hidden influence ruining your mind .

    Well the hidden influence was ALWAYS LRH and you have had your bank cleared ! Your savings bank !

    He was trying to use repetitive subtle suggestion to get you conditioned to associating happiness and sanity with clearing the bank !

    I did not believe it could be that simple , but I have read lots of pages by hypnotists where they try to use repetition of words with multiple meanings to persuade cooperation or paying them .

    After a while you start to laugh and see right through the technique , but it works on people some of the time.

    He tried thousands of hypnotic techniques and refined and combined them many times over. He may have been the best hypnotist to EVER walk the face of the Earth.

    He successfully built an empire of tens of thousands of slaves largely on his ability to hypnotize and via books and tapes made a pyramidal caste system that ran primarily off his mind control for decades.

    IT is the heart of the technology. The RPF , the fraud , the forced abortions , the murders , the fair game , the abuses by Miscavige and others - all these are signs of how he controlled and still in death controls people .

    To me the mind control is THE true story of Scientology and all the rest is just symptoms or clues to point you in the right direction .

    Without the mind control a Scientologist or reporter or anyone else is missing 99% of the story.AND 99% of what must be addressed in recovery.

    There is no reformation or taking out the bad parts POSSIBLE in my opinion .
  13. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist


    Not everything in SCN is hypnotic.
    For example, coercive acts are not hypnotic but can achieve the desired result, even if it might be for a short time.
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    On that subject, there's an essay very much worth reading on the subject of Coercive Persuasion and Scientology over here written by Lawrence Wollersheim:
  15. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Here is a quote from Arnie I think is pertinent to this thread. :)

  16. petal

    petal Patron Meritorious

    what about the spirit?

  17. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Allright guys , great points all around :thumbsup::clap:

    I'll address three of them here.

    First off Free Being Me great post : Arnie and I have - I think it is safe to say - SIMILAR ideas on many points regarding Scientology and Dianetics technology.

    We have had very different paths in life in some ways AND his research has been far longer and really laid the foundation for me to partially get to focus on the most relevant avenues to look down .

    I still will probably want to read another two to three hundred books to feel that I have a good basic education on these subjects.

    I mainly use certain natural assets and my subjective experience of 25 years within the cult following a very particular path with very strong and prolonged phenomena for me to study .

    That experience seen through the lens of the info Arnie and Jon Atack and a few dozen others have brought out AND written for laymen to understand has been where I started from .

    To me Arnie and Jon will always be the giants in this field whose shoulders I try to catch a glimpse of .

    Now proggramer guy brings up a VERY important point that cannot be left out .

    NOT everything that happens is ALWAYS hypnotism . YES that is 100% true , a tremendous amount that happens is due to long and short term effects of hypnotic and OTHER methods of influence and mind control , BUT other factors contribute - some social , some having to do with cults and the eight criteria of thought reform , some having to do with the outside society.

    I focus generally on the differences between other groups and hidden harm of the mind control primarily BUT there is more to the story.

    I think people have SOME - even not fully formed - concepts of peer pressure , coercion , fraud and many other factors present in Scientology and other criminal organizations and really groups in general .

    They may not be WELL informed on those subjects but on mind control , brainwashing ( which I am not in agreement with the legal definition requiring chemical agents for ; it is the closest thing the average person has to an accurate idea of Scientology - regardless of chemicals use or not ), thought reform , covert persuasion , undue influence and the weaknesses and processes of human thought that make theses things possible they have usually a handful of absurdly inaccurate ideas to hide a general ignorance that is beyond dangerous.

    It is that way in that it leaves them perpetually vulnerable to and unaware of persuasive elements and effects in their environment.

    You don't have to believe in any conspiracies or not to hold this view ; individuals as well as groups and governments have an interest in persuading people.

    If you don't believe me look at a half dozen NLP and hypnotism websites.

    There is a great chance you will find some wanna be sociopath who promises to help seduce women , sell insurance etc. etc. with his " secrets ".

    The way to STOP these slimeballs is to let everybody know their game and shut them down.

    So yes programmer guy there is some more to the story BUT to me the hard to get and often not seen - even by critics and exes - part is what I focus on .

    With that I hope the other parts can come into focus and the ultimate goals of recovery for exes, the exposure and condemnation by the public and governments and the reconnection of the shattered families and friends can be facilitated . The still in can hopefully have an eased transition to being exes and all this hinges on EDUCATION .

    It will not always be easy , we will not always agree on many issues BUT I think it is far better than anything LRH would EVER dream of giving us.

    Okay now for Petal : you bring up a great point I have addressed before BUT it is worth revisiting.

    There is - in Scientology NOTHING even remotely beneficial or accurate or educational about spirits or anything even related in any way shape or form EVER.

    It is best described when addressing the concept of spirits or the reality of such as spiritual rape , spiritual degradation and spiritual slavery .

    Whatever spiritual states or reality exists it hides and confuses and makes harder to even accurately conceive of.

    Many people write and talk about spiritual people and states requiring compassion and enlightenment .

    Scientology DESTROYS whatever compassion and enlightenment humans could have without it.

    Think of the states of mind that contemplate truth , meaning in life , love for your fellow man ( you know spiritual stuff ) as the coldest ice imaginable - Scientology is like a nuclear fire in the very hottest star blazing remorselessly for all eternity .

    If you are looking for spirits - unless you want to damn them and enslave and confuse them utterly Scientology has NOTHING for you.
  18. Leon-2

    Leon-2 Patron Meritorious

    You know Mbird, I refrained from commenting this thread because on a previous one you objected to my disagreeing with you - you wanted to be left in peace to "discuss" what was on your mind. So OK.

    This thread on hypnosis seems to have died off after just two pages, so - now that it is "dead" I will raise a few points which struck me when I read your opening essay on the subject.

    Apart from the obvious fact that the causes of hypnotic induction that you give are things that I'm sure everybody experiences - if not daily then often, and leads one to believe that all people must consequently be in a somewhat hypnotised state all the time. Now I don't disagree with this. In fact I think it is true. About a year or more ago I posted something on this board where I said that below the level of Clear there exists no such thing as self-determinism - it's a myth - and I was shouted down for talking rubbish. I used the word clear in its original; postulated meaning of an ideal state for man. However, here in your post what you say seems to support that view. Thank you.

    But more than that: in the post you commit the exact actions of the hypnotist you pretend to be describing. First you induce confusion and a measure of introspection by saying we don't understand hypnosis and that all arguments against you have been based on illogical false-arguments,

    then you proceed to claim altitude by pretending to know more about this subject than your likely readers and you reinforce this belief by quoting "authorities" (only the very best ones of course) in order to bolster that altitude,

    you proceed by inserting covert commands into your "discussion" > e.g. "And if a point is not logically clear, you’ll focus more and more of your at-tention in the hope of understanding it eventually. And remember, focusing the attention is a key component of hypnosis."

    "Being confused is like drowning in a sea of communication. You will grab onto anything that will keep you afloat."
    Exactly what you want us to do in this overly long and repetitive post of yours, wanting us to grab onto your own "truth",

    you repeat things continually to make sure we "understand" them, exactly following the script here,

    "You are sure to have seen those swinging pendulums and rotating wheels that get used, not to mention the enjoyable repetitive quality of the ocean waves coming in to shore.

    I love to hear that sound, it is one of the reasons I love to live beside the sea."
    zzzzzzzz yes master, I obey you, you are so right

    Hell man, I could go on paragraph by paragraph through your entire post. The hypnotism you protest in Hubbard you are yourself totally guilty of here. The covertness of the actions you protest in Hubbard you use masterfully here. You do it all.

    And that's why I reject your thesis in its entirety - even though there is truth in it. You claim to want to clarify things so people can understand them better, yet you pull the wool over their eyes as you do so, and you do this knowingly.
  19. Leon-2

    Leon-2 Patron Meritorious

    That's OK. You don't need to agree with me.
  20. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    People like agreement, Leon. That's the thing. The worst flame wars here and the worst accusations and attacks (sometimes sanctioned by management) have been because of someone's POV and ways of expression being different. I could, of course, spout the Scn'ese for that, but I won't. We all know what it is.

    After all the things that have happened in forum-land for so many years, observing that phenomenon (which, by the way, is not just something you find on Scn discussion msg boards. Political ones are like that, too) I've begun trying to figure out why people get so very threatened by differing povs. I mean, I know what those people say - but it's generally bullshit. Whatever they think is bothering them and why they react as they do is not likely to be what they think it is.

    My theory is that it may be because we were once, as spirit or psyche or whatever you want to call it, "all one". I think spirit was all united, and eventually, different personalities were formed and people became people. But I think there is still some unity and cohesiveness between all people, because we are still spirit. I've seen evidence of it time and time again. And maybe when someone really departs from any widely established idea or status quo, that this gives others a feeling of wrongness. I think that's what gets them- or should I say us- upset at times. This means that we all experience this at various times.

    I sometimes feel that Mockingbird is talking at some of us rather than to us. I (almost instinctively) react against that. I'm one of those who dislikes Oprah and Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz and various OLs in the critic's scene - well, I don't necessarily dislike them, it's more that I dislike the idea that they know more than I and can tell me what I should do.

    However, whenever I feel that way, I just think how very healthy and freeing it is for Mockingbird to express this stuff. We're all trying to just puzzle out what the fuck happened. Being in the cult was incredibly hurtful. There are very few people who get out unscathed. Just about everyone here has been affected deeply. Emotionally, most of all. But also financially, at home in their families, even their businesses.

    So I guess we all get a turn or two on the soapbox.